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The W - Current Events & Politics - Illegal Immigrants
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Merc
Potato korv








Since: 3.1.02
From: Brisbane, Australia

Since last post: 1286 days
Last activity: 1264 days
#1 Posted on
Down here there's a huge shit fight about what to do with boat people/refugees/illegal immigrants. People pay their life savings to some guy to risk their life in a crappy boat to come to Australia thinking they'll be better off.

Our government's policy at this time is one of mandatory detention. If you attempt to enter Australia through any channel other than the official one you get sent to a detention center. Theoretically once the people ar in detention the government assesses the validity of their refuge/visa claim. This can take a very long time for various reasons, lack of ID papers, country in turmoil etc.

My questions are: What happens in your countries? Have you heard anything about the Australian situation? We're led to believe the world is caning us for our "racist policy".



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bigwavedave
Blutwurst








Since: 3.1.02
From: morro bay ca

Since last post: 4321 days
Last activity: 4321 days
#2 Posted on
Your policy is not racist , it is one of the few sensible things I can say Australia has done lately. Keep them out and send them back. you are in for nothing but headaches, because the more you let in, the more will want in. And your country just doesn't have the resources to deal with them. Look at the way things are in Germany,Canada,France and the U.K. they let everyone who wanted in and now they know what it's like to be the U.S. Soaring crime rates, overcrowded housing, healthcare and education costs and issues.

As far as what happens to them in the U.S. They generally get jobs at restaurants, motels, sweatshops and farms. The ones that do get caught usually are just bussed back to the border and dumped in Mexico's lap. We also have a large amount of them in jails/prisons as many of them have committed alot of crime. Mexico is doing a token effort to deport some of the OTM's (other than mexican's) back to the other Latin American countries they coame from, but it's pretty much a joke.

If all the illegal immigrants in the U.S. were fired tommorrow, we would be with out (my guess) about 10-40% of the work force (depending on where you are.)Not that I'm neccessarily defending them as a whole, but alot of them ARE working hard and doing the jobs most other people won't. Yes the rest are leeching our welfare system, and I'd like to see the non productive ones shipped off to siberia. I'd also like to see better border enforcement, but being the physically huge country we are, with so much area to cover, it's nearly immpossible. We are in one of the biggest catch 22's in the world with the problem. They are costing us so much, but like I said, doing alot of the grunt work.



"My parents said I could be anything, so I became an ASSHOLE!"
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 28 days
Last activity: 2 days
#3 Posted on
Hey BigWave, are you actually former California governor Pete Wilson? I never knew you were a wrestling fan

Here, Illegal Immigrants are kind of like people smoking Pot. They happen a lot, the government knows they happen a lot, it's technically illegal, but there really isn't a lot of enforcement. And the enforcement tends to be fairly selective.

If you want a huge report with all the facts, click here It's the Census report.

10.4% of the population is foreign born. I don't know how many of them are illegal, but regardless, that means they're less than 10% of the workforce, probably a lot less.

they let everyone who wanted in and now they know what it's like to be the U.S. Soaring crime rates, overcrowded housing, healthcare and education costs and issues.

The arguement in the last post is from the early nineties, when there was economic trouble, high crime, and welfare abuse. Of course, lately, crime is down the economy, well it was good, unemployementy is at historic lows, and welfare has been reformed. And Immigration, and illegal immigration, has actually exploded in the last decade. So there really isn't the cause/effect thing mentioned above. In fact, they are one of the main reasons America has undergone the economic boom it has. The same thing happened in the early part of the century, when immigration and illegal immigration was actually much higher than it is now. Back then everyone blamed the Jews, Italians, Russians, Greeks, etc. for all the stuff above.

Economically, the biggest thing that immigrants cost us is actually not mentioned above. Welfare and all that stuff is negligable compared to the work illegals so and the help they give our economy. The big economic drag is that immigrants don't spend hardly any money. They either save it, or more often, send it back home. In fact, repatriations (sending money back home to a foreign country) is the second biggest reason for dollars leaving the country (next to buying oil). And our economy doesn't really get anything in return.

I'm very pro-immigration if you haven't gathered that by now. But from a purely economic persepective, this is a big drag on the American economy. I think it's outweighed by all the positive stuff immigrants bring, but it's still there.

As for the first question, I know Australia doesn't have the greatest history when it comes to race relation (although, we sure don't either). But as far as immigration policy goes, I think it's only racist when you don't have a uniform policy irregardless of race or national origin. The U.S. only got such a policy in 1965.
If you keep illegal immigrants from Europe (or make less of an effort to catch them) and kick out the immigrants from Africa, then I'd say it's racist.

Moe

(edited by MoeGates on 12.2.02 1129)

[EDIT: Fixed the link - I think - be aware it's a 1711K PDF - CRZ]

(edited by CRZ on 12.2.02 0831)
Farooq is the man so hit your knees and start praying!
PinkSkunk
Blutwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Edison, New Jersey, America

Since last post: 4448 days
Last activity: 4448 days
AIM:  
#4 Posted on

    Originally posted by Merc
    Down here there's a huge shit fight about what to do with boat people/refugees/illegal immigrants. People pay their life savings to some guy to risk their life in a crappy boat to come to Australia thinking they'll be better off.



    Our government's policy at this time is one of mandatory detention. If you attempt to enter Australia through any channel other than the official one you get sent to a detention center. Theoretically once the people ar in detention the government assesses the validity of their refuge/visa claim. This can take a very long time for various reasons, lack of ID papers, country in turmoil etc.



    My questions are: What happens in your countries? Have you heard anything about the Australian situation? We're led to believe the world is caning us for our "racist policy".



No, that isn't racist as long as one race isn't being specifically targetted.

What IS racist policy would be this amnesty for illegal Mexican immigrants. What the hell is up with that? What about illegal immigrants from Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, and/or Canada? They just get the shaft? And what about all of the people who want to emigrate to America LEGALLY? Once again, no one thinks about people who just jump the fence and take their spot.

My problem isn't immigration, it's ILLEGAL immigration. I could care less if they do the grunt work or not-THEY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IF THEY ARE ILLEGAL! But some people want to throw them a bone. OK, a compromise: Enact a 6 month "grace" period so that anyone who is illegal but wants to be a citizen can go become one in that time. Anyone who fails to do that by then goes back to where ever the hell they came from-no exceptions.



...Some fear the Pink...
...But many fear....THE MOUNTIE!
(He's handsome, he's brave, and he's strong, you know)
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 28 days
Last activity: 2 days
#5 Posted on
That policy you suggest is called an amnesty. There's usually one with every major change in Immigration Law. The last one was in 1986 I believe. It essentially says "OK, everyone here can register to become a citizen." Some do, and some don't.

As for the "Illegal" part, come on. There are all sorts of laws in this country that people break all the time. Pirating tapes, smoking pot, fighting, engaging in sodomy in certain states, etc. I've done all of these several times. I've never been arrested, not so I really think I should be.

Illegal Immigration is one of those kind of laws. If the government really wanted to spend massive amounts of money they could probably do something about it. It looks like they're going to start that now with Arab illegals (which definitely IS racist, and stupid to boot. I mean, that last shoe bomber was a non-Arabic British Citizen). But before 9-11, is definitely just wasn't worth it monetarily for them, no more than trying to prosecute Joe Schmoe for smoking pot, or geting into a bar fight, or getting a blowjob.

Moe

(edited by MoeGates on 12.2.02 1338)
Farooq is the man so hit your knees and start praying!
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3473 days
Last activity: 3467 days
#6 Posted on
I've never heard anything about illegal immigration policies in Australia. In fact I never really hear much about Australia in the news except for the fact that you guys support us in the war against terrorism and sent some troops to fight in Afghanistan. Unfortunately when Australia is thought of by 99% of the American population, all we think of is Mick Dundee, Foster's Beer, Outback Steak House, and Survivor--American culture has pounded in the image that everyone in Australia lives in the outback and knows how to kill snakes with Bowie knifes. It would be nice to hear more about you blokes. :) (But then again, when the rest of the U.S. and the world thinks of California, you think of surfers, beaches, and blonde bomdshells driving red sportscars, so I guess you return the favor.)

DMC



"Jack you are a scientist! Do you not think there are things in this universe which you do not understand and yet which are true?" -Abraham VanHelsing
Merc
Potato korv








Since: 3.1.02
From: Brisbane, Australia

Since last post: 1286 days
Last activity: 1264 days
#7 Posted on
A bit of the outcry here is that the government is very hard line on people they catch before they get to Australia, but much less so with people who overstay. People who overstay tend to be white/european origin. People who come by boat are usually asian/middle eastern origin so there's an implication of racism there. People who want to see racism will see it, others won't.

Turning people around at the Mexican border is easy enough for folk in the US, but with ocean surrounding us and people coming in crappy boats it's hard to turn them around.Apparently the majority of boats come via Indonesia and our diplomatic relations with Indonesia are strained at best.

Our government really come across as clueless sometimes. They announced they wouldn't be processing claims from Afghans fleeing the Taliban at the moment. Apparently it's safe for them to go home now the Taliban are no longer in power. Hell, they even offered to pay their airfare home. If they really think Afghanistan is a safe place all of a sudden, lord help us.



I'm a fat wannabe surfer
bigwavedave
Blutwurst








Since: 3.1.02
From: morro bay ca

Since last post: 4321 days
Last activity: 4321 days
#8 Posted on
I'm not Pete Wilson, although he was the Mayor of San Diego when I lived there. He did some good things and some not so good things as Governor.

When referring to "the workforce" I meant in the specific areas of jobs I was talking about, especially here in CA. The kitchen, farm labor, and motel maid jobs especially.

I'm not trying to come across as anti immigrant. We're all the descendents of immigrants (at least in part.) I just think that we need to focus more effort on controlling the influx and getting rid of EVERYONE who is sitting on their ass doing nothing. I'm all for anyone working a legitimate job that no one else wants to do.





"My parents said I could be anything, so I became an ASSHOLE!"
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
Moderator








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 7 hours
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05

    Originally posted by PinkSkunk


    What IS racist policy would be this amnesty for illegal Mexican immigrants. What the hell is up with that? What about illegal immigrants from Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, and/or Canada?



it's not racist because the american goverment says mexicans and south americans are all Hispanic

and if mexicans are let in, and brazillians are not, then it's not racist, but giving one country preference over another...

not all people from south america are Hispanic anyway...look at peru, isn't the president Asian?



-- Ladies and gentlemen take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice.
-- Satisfaction GUARENTEED!!!! or you owe me ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!!!!!!!!!
-- Ubermonkeys is a TOOL, please kick him in the JUNK.
R-D-Z
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 196 days
Last activity: 196 days
#10 Posted on
Well, here in Chapel Hill we recently had a crack-down on illegal immigrants (mostly hispanic) working for the big grocery stores (Food Lion, Harris Teeter). So the stores had to demand that all their employees had to show some form of proof of citizenship or a visa. Nobody shows up for work the next week. There are only a few hispanics left working there right now, and all those positions had to be refilled. So now all the grocery stores are undermanned. Just my little story, anyway I know a couple who does cleaning at my mom's office. They've been working here for 3 years and all they do is send money back home to their kids. So yeah, I agree that it really is a big drain on our economy right now, but they are also the cheapest labor source around. In a capitalist economy, whatcha gonna do?

-Jag
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 28 days
Last activity: 2 days
#11 Posted on
not all people from south america are Hispanic anyway...look at peru, isn't the president Asian?

Their ex-president (more like ex-dictator actually) Alberto Fujimora is of Japanese heritage. There was another mini-scandel concerning him because it was rumored that he was actually born in Japan instead of Peru, which would have made him ineligable to be President. He's now living in Japan and is considering running for Parliment there.

"Hispanic" is a weird term, and kind of means different things in different contexts. Even though it's not supposed to be a race, in America it's really used that way anyway. But in Latin America, race and "being Hispanic" are very different. For instance, in Argentina and Uraguay people are mostly light-skinned and European. In Ecuador and Peru people are mostly dark-skinned and Indian. People of all different races (including Peru's former president) consider themselves "Hispanic" the same way people of all different races here consider themselves "American" (although "North American" or "Western" or "Part of the English speaking world" would probably be better analogies).

Plus what about Brazil, Guyana, Surinam, and French Guyana, which are South American countries thtat don't speak Spanish. Or people who speak Spanish but aren't from the Western Hemisphere. They would be considered "Hispanic" some place and not "Hispanic" in others.

Essentially "Hispanic" is a weird and complicated term.

Moe

(edited by MoeGates on 14.2.02 1503)
Farooq is the man so hit your knees and start praying!
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
Moderator








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 7 hours
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
and if you REALLY want to get nit-picky, there is no such thing as a hispanic...

Spanirds -- europeans
Philipnos -- asian
Latin America -- American Indian mix

i could go on...

The Washington Post refuses to list Hispanic when they make graphs of racial totals because, in truth, Hispanics can be of any race [white, black, asian, native american]

but, that's only if you're really nit-picky




-- Ladies and gentlemen take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice.
-- Satisfaction GUARENTEED!!!! or you owe me ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!!!!!!!!!
-- Ubermonkeys is a TOOL, please kick him in the JUNK.
R-D-Z
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

Since last post: 4 hours
Last activity: 3 hours
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#13 Posted on

    Originally posted by rikidozan
    and if you REALLY want to get nit-picky, there is no such thing as a hispanic...

    [snip]

    but, that's only if you're really nit-picky


As part of the honors program in college, I had to take an Ethnic Studies class. Believe me, you've never SEEN nitpicky until you've had a ten week course in Chicano. "The term 'Hispanic' is AN INSULT!" Then we had to watch old episodes of "I Married Dora" to play SPOT THE STEREOTYPE.

Of course, then we'd get the hippychick with "man, we're all HUMAN BEINGS" and she'd get a serious razzing, so it had it's moments. ;-) Also, this was the course I wrote my infamous 40 page paper on Kid Frost's debut LP to get a B+....but I only had the SECOND coolest paper, 'cause another guy did a case study on GERARDO

Wow, looking back, college was really so worthless in the academic sense....good thing there are other reasons to go!



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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 6 hours
AIM:  
#14 Posted on
This of course, leads to one of my favorite mental images of all time...

Kid Frost singing "This one's for La Rana" and that flash card of the frog that was in the car for so long...
Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 331 days
Last activity: 325 days
#15 Posted on
The line about "hispanics" brings to mind the ridiculous extremes baseball used to take.

"White" Cubans could play baseball, while "black" Cubans couldn't.



***Signed by Padres Feb. 05, 2002***

MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 28 days
Last activity: 2 days
#16 Posted on
I wrote my infamous 40 page paper on Kid Frost's debut LP to get a B+

Calling him Kid Frost now is INSULTING! You should know he just goes by "Frost" now.

I saw a "behind the music" or something on Gerardo which was great. He's like the most normal guy in the world. Essentially his take was "look, we all do shit when we're 19 where we look back and go 'man, what was I thinking?!' It just happened that mine got an album and two videos made of it."

Moe



Farooq is the man so hit your knees and start praying!
cfgb
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Ottawa, Ontario

Since last post: 15 hours
Last activity: 13 min.
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.87
The line about "hispanics" brings to mind the ridiculous extremes baseball used to take.

"White" Cubans could play baseball, while "black" Cubans couldn't.


Listen you racist bastard, blacks can play baseball as well as...oh, wait, I get it now.

Well it's not like the Negro Leagues were fighting to let WHITE players in, now were they? ;-)

I'm actually REALLY impressed with the discussion in here. Over the years I've seen too many political discussions (ESPECIALLY ones dealing with religion and race) turn into flame wars. I guess "longer recaps" from CRZ lead to "smarter fanbase" because they're willing to take the time to read something instead of skim over...




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Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
Moderator








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 7 hours
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
actually, i just noticed that...no flames here, just discussion...

now, if this were The Smarks board...


i don't know if i should start a thread on this, but how many other people are bi-racial?

when i was in highschool (class of '95) there were only single racial codes, like for standardized tests....

then in my senior year, i didn't have to mark 2 racial coded and screw up my scantron test, i had the joy of having "other" to pick from...

i REFUSED to pick "other" i considered it to be an insult...

i can see how latinos felt when they had to choose other or Hispanic (i like Paul Rodriguez's line on this, about how he's not from Hispania...classic)




-- Ladies and gentlemen take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice.
-- Satisfaction GUARENTEED!!!! or you owe me ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!!!!!!!!!
-- Ubermonkeys is a TOOL, please kick him in the JUNK.
R-D-Z
Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 331 days
Last activity: 325 days
#19 Posted on

    Originally posted by rikidozan
    i don't know if i should start a thread on this, but how many other people are bi-racial?



I have enough "Native American" background to classify myself as a minority, but don't for several reasons. One involved my job, when former superiors lied about the number of minorities working here to help get out of a potential lawsuit, I refused to help get them off the hook by claiming something I never had before...it just seems a bit pointless to do it now.

Plus, I don't want to have to explain the percentages to anyone who asks down the line...



***Signed by Padres Feb. 05, 2002***

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