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The W - Pro Wrestling - I Miss Old School Heels
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Freeway
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Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

Since last post: 250 days
Last activity: 1 day
#1 Posted on
Alas, with the recent SHIT the WWF has put out...it's really made me long for the days of old school heels. The way Ric Flair was, before he turned into the generic crazy old man that he is today... I mean, whatever happened to:
-distracting the referee?
-going for the title?
-grabbing the tights on pinfalls?
-stealing the face's woman?
-raking the eyes? bell claps?
-putting the feet up on the ropes for leverage?

Whatever happened to heels actually HAVING A MOTIVATION? If Stone Cold's the Champion, I could fight him because:
1) He's the Champion, and I want the belt.
2) I feel slighted by him (he interefered in a match or something, making me angry) or he hurt my pride.
3) He injured me, and I want revenge.
4) He stole ______ from me, and I want revenge (works especially well for the ex-champion).
5) I'm an ex-sparring partner, and I still hate him!

Examples of these include:
-The WrestleMania 2000 feud between The Big Show & The Rock, where Rocky called the Big Show a "Jabroni" and the Show took offense.
-Any Benoit/Jericho feud.
-The 2001 Angle/Benoit feud, where Benoit STOLE the medals.
-The current Benoit/Austin feud, where Austin WANTS REVENGE for Austin putting him out.
-And the semi-classic Love Triangle Feud...between The Macho Man, The Nature Boy and Miss Elizabeth. The Angle/Steph/HHH feud was a cheap ripoff.

WHY CAN'T THEY JUST REHASH GOOD OLD ANGLES? WHY? WHY?

I guess I'm a little pissed off that the most anti-climatic ending is usually the one chosen in the WWF Universe.




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Since: 4.2.02
From: Austin, TX, USA

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#2 Posted on
I hate to say it, but with the track record of the writing staf the past 15 months I don't know if we can count on them to include the climax and denouement of a storyline anymore. Hell- you could make a case that the most famous storyline of the past few years in Austin-McMahon is still going on by extension with Flair on RAW and HHH on Smackdown.



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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 73 days
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.18

Isn't Eddy doing that?

Didn't he either win or keep the IC belt by pulling tights and/or feet on the ropes?





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Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#4 Posted on


    1) He's the Champion, and I want the belt.
    2) I feel slighted by him (he interefered in a match or something, making me angry) or he hurt my pride.
    3) He injured me, and I want revenge.
    4) He stole ______ from me, and I want revenge (works especially well for the ex-champion).
    5) I'm an ex-sparring partner, and I still hate him!


I'll add:

6: Racial, social or nationalistic emnity. To wit, the classic Real American Vs. Iron Shiek or Hogan Vs. Slaughter (as controlled by the Iraqis) or Bret Hart Vs Any American. This used to be the guy from Minnesota coming down to Indianapolis - I guess that wouldn't work as well in the WWE. Maybe the south Vs. north thing.

7. Dastardly managers. dammit, Paul E isn't enough. We need MORE bastard managers. What happened to the Captain, Freddie, Slick, the Brain, Jim Cornette, Paul Bearer, and the rest cheating their asses off for their heels.



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Since: 2.1.02
From: Darkenwood

Since last post: 11 days
Last activity: 13 hours
#5 Posted on
What we need is JOBBERS, people (and I don't mean Chris Jericho and Crash Holly). I mean nameless, faceless jobbers who are less than Barry Horowitz on the charisma and ability scale. If the Fed had jobbers, people could rack up wins, cut promos, do kick-ass moves and retain their own heat while NOT taking away the heat of up-and-coming mid-carders (like Christian or Test or something).
With real jobbers, meaningful, long, good feuds could be started because the heels and faces could take out their frustrations on inexperienced idiots and build anticipation for the PPVs. This way, the WWE wouldn't give away the end of mid-card feuds on free TV, and PPVs would be more meaningful.



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Since: 14.1.02
From: Ottawa Ontario, by way of Walkerton

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#6 Posted on
9) One word; Hennan.
10) If you can't get Hennan, can we get a REAL heel announcer on RAW?



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Scrapple








Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

Since last post: 397 days
Last activity: 358 days
#7 Posted on

    Originally posted by Freeway420
    Alas, with the recent SHIT the WWF has put out...it's really made me long for the days of old school heels. The way Ric Flair was, before he turned into the generic crazy old man that he is today... I mean, whatever happened to:
    -distracting the referee?
    -going for the title?
    -grabbing the tights on pinfalls?
    -stealing the face's woman?
    -raking the eyes? bell claps?
    -putting the feet up on the ropes for leverage?


1. There's quite a bit of ref distracting in tag team matches.
2. When you say "going for the title", what do you mean exactly? If you mean using the title as a weapon, it's still done.
3. Man, *FACES* even grab the tights sometimes now. Same with feet on the ropes.

All this stuff (except maybe the eye rake) is still going on. It's just not as often. Those things have become obvious and boring. No one wants a wrestler who does the same thing all the time (I'm talking to YOU, Hogan!).




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Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

Since last post: 117 days
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#8 Posted on
Of course, if they get jobbers on TV, the PPV's would be more meaningful, but the free TV would be meaningless, and ratings would drop. Are they willing to do this? It only works if the money they might make up on PPV is more than the money lost on TV. Also, UPN and TNN might be less than thrilled with the prospect that the ratings are going to take a severe drop. Without TV, you have no PPV advertising.

I know I wouldn't be watching wrestling today if there was nothing but jobber squashes on TV. I wasn't even watching wrestling until I was channel surfing, happen to catch Ric Flair v. Big Show in progress, noticing it was a title match. I thought, "Boy, that's rare to have a World Title match on free TV, hell, it's rare to have any top quality match on free TV." I continued to watch, and watched the Big Show (who quite frankly, I didn't even know who the hell he was, except of course I noticed he was friggin' huge) defeat Ric Flair (who of course I remembered from watching wrestling as a kid)for the title. Now if a World Title match was rare, a title change just didn't happen on free TV. So I knew right then and there that TV wrestling had changed. So I've continued to watch since then.

Maybe there is room for a jobber squash here and there, but if they go back to the old way (jobber squashes, and maybe a mediocre main event), then I'm done.
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3421 days
Last activity: 3415 days
#9 Posted on
I'm torn too...I would actually love to see a return to jobber squash shows of the 80s that helped build heat and were more mellow to watch, something you could actually RELAX with on a Saturday afternoon, but I don't know if it would sell today. However, the problem with too many "BIG" matches with every match on every show makes the main event matches seem a little less exciting than they should be. As you guys are pointing out, the whole point of seeing a big match on TV use to be (and should be) "Wow, I can't believe these two are having this match on telelvision." So, I think a couple jobber matches here and there would help.

The only one I recall in recent memory was Scott Hall beating Spike Dudley on one of the weekend shows. That totally felt like an old-time jobber match and it gave me a good feeling, helped Hall build a good amount of heat. But if Spike is going to be the jobber extraordinare then they need to keep him in that roll, and add one or two others who the viewer KNOWS will loose every match they are in.

A MAJOR SECOND on the motion for more evil managers. I think we've been seeing some of this recently and hopefully will see more. Rico is pretty good, and so is Paul. Hopefuly Nidia will be a good heel valet.

DMC



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TheBucsFan
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Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 18 days
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
Actually, Spike Dudley vs Scott Hall happened on RAW (March fourth), not one of the weekend shows. Also, if you are looking for a jobber match, look no further than a match featuring Shawn Stasiak.



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DMC
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Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3421 days
Last activity: 3415 days
#11 Posted on
You're right Bucs, I'm thinking of when Hall beat Crash.

DMC



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Since: 2.1.02
From: Darkenwood

Since last post: 11 days
Last activity: 13 hours
#12 Posted on
I agree that a return to the jobber days may not equal ratings, but it may make up for it in PPV buys. Along the same lines, I think the number of PPVs should be cut, but that is so un-McMahon, it will never happen. He would rather go with overkill and have a zillion PPVs that are bought by less people than have 6-8 PPVs that absolutely rock and are special and draw monstrous buyrates.
The thing about jobber matches is you get such a HUGE blowoff for the PPV. Think back to the 90s when Jake Roberts and Randy Savage feuded. They both won numerous squash matches and cut about a zillion hot promos before they actually met. Run-ins were few and far between back then too, so when Jake beat the hell out of Savage and let the cobra gnaw on his arm, it was damn shocking.
When those guys finally met up at the PPV, it was pandemonium. It was electric. You were glued to the tube.
If the same feud happened today, Jake and Macho would trade wins every week on free TV, and one would beat the other up on every show. Then, the PPV blowoff would be just two weeks after the start of the fued and no one would care, so the Fed would take this as a sign to end the feud and they would get ONE DAMN PPV MATCH and then PRESTO, end of feud. It would be the second match on the card, right after the electrifying Rico and Orton vs. Test and Mark Henry tag match.
The next night on Raw, they would inexplicably start new feuds with new opponents, again by dumn run-ins and beat-downs, as if people just NEED to be in feuds all the time. If you had jobbers, this would be no problem. Both guys could get on TV, but wouldn't have to just dive into a feud.
If there were jobbers, the guys wouldn't even have to touch each other till the PPV, and there would be ANTICIPATION~! It's the same reason I'm looking forward to Tyson/Lewis - I've wanted it for years.



YOU WANT A PIECE OF ME!?! - The immortal, chilling words of...The Shockmaster!
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3421 days
Last activity: 3415 days
#13 Posted on
Bringing in a whole bunch of jobbers would also mean that you would have to go back to the classic "Jobber stands in the ring at the beginning of match and waits for the main guy to enter." Think of the TV time that would save not having to sit through two ring entrances per match.

Alas, I just don't think it would fly with today's fans. With the short attention span and gotta-have-it-now attitude of most young people in America, they would be wondering who the heck that is in the ring constantly and whining about it. Also, we've all been conditioned from 90s wrestling to see all big matches all the time, so going away from that now may be too much of a shock.

DMC



If you want to view paradise, simply look around and view it. -Willy Wonka
Freeway
Scrapple








Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

Since last post: 250 days
Last activity: 1 day
#14 Posted on
Jobbers should be used as pawns, and wrestling feuds are nothing more than a human chess match.

Say, a PPV is in a month: I'm using Benoit & Jericho as examples...

SD, Week 1: Jericho lost his title at the PPV. Benoit passes him backstage and calls him a loser. They scuffle, but it's broken up. Jericho's irate. Benoit insults him one more time before going for his match. During the match (vs. Jobber), Benoit beats the bejesus out of him, before Jericho comes out and distracts Benoit, leading to him losing to jobber. Jericho grabs the mic, says "Who's a loser now?" and leaves. Benoit recovers, and beats the hell out of the jobber before leaving. The announcers ponder.

SD, Week 2: Jericho arrives and is subsequently punked out by Benoit. Benoit is pulled off of him and taken away. Jericho goes out and challenges Benoit for the PPV. Jericho comes out and accepts. Later, there's a pre-booked tag match between Jericho/Edge and Benoit/Angle (assuming Edge & Angle are feuding...might as well get 2 angles furthered in one match...). The match eventually degrades into Benoit & Jericho beating each other down and getting counted out (while Angle & Edge brawl). Benoit gains the upper hand and takes Jericho down with a chair. He beats on him a bit, then leaves. Jericho's taken to a "medical facility", with a "rib injury".

SD, Week 3: Benoit's all nonchalant, after having taken Jericho out last week. He's cocky all night long, basically just sitting around and lounging (instead of getting ready for the match). Benoit faces the jobber from two weeks ago again, and soundly beats him down, prolonging the agony...when out of nowhere Jericho appears and costs Benoit the match, again! Then Jericho gets in and they tangle again! Benoit recovers and goes after Jericho's ribs, tenderizing them before Jericho bails. Sure, Jericho and Benoit are evenly matched...but how can Jericho beat him when he has SORE RIBS? HOW??

PPV: Match, Jericho overcomes odds and defeats Benoit cleanly.

This is the Injury Redemption Plot. It's standard, but it works.



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Since: 12.5.02
From: Junction City OR.

Since last post: 1972 days
Last activity: 1624 days
#15 Posted on
I agree about managers. Remember how much better Jimmy Hart made the feud between Savage and Honky then Brutus and Honky? I hated the way that Jimmy kept costing my favorites the title. And the great heel stables. The 4Horseman and Dangerous Alliance. Here are some of my rules regarding mgrs in the WWE today.
1. Managers must not wrestle! I can't stress this enough. Unless it is a blowoff to a long feud in some type of gimmick handicap match.
2. Managers must not be beaten up except on PPV's. Have Paul keep costing Bubba his matches but Bubba is not able to catch Paul.
3. Go midsouth on the Managers. Super gimmich matches like a manager in a cage or if Lesnar loses then Bubba would get 5 minutes with him in the ring.
4. Use the managers to explain their wrestlers going face or heel. But the manager MUST stay heel. Stables that change are stupid. Plus the manager's job is to get the wrestler over not himself.
5. Makes some good sized stables. No less than 3 and no more than 5. If Paul had 2 or 3 other wrestlers then Bubba could wrestle one of them on occasion. The face would get a win and then the heels could kick his ass. Everyone keeps their heat until the PPV.



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Since: 2.1.02
From: Just outside Dudleyville

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#16 Posted on
I agree on the manager bits but the Jobber idea is questionable. I totally fail to understand how Wrestler A can build heat for his feud with Wrestler B by squashing the totally unrelated to anything Wrestler C. Not to mention this makes for extremely bad and uninteresting television.



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Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 18 days
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
Wrestler A gets clean wins over Wrestler C to build up momentum heading into his match with Wrestler B. Then, if Wrestler B defeats Wrestler A, it is that much more impressive.



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Since: 22.4.02
From: Long Island

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#18 Posted on
That, and it maintains separation between A and B. Therefore, when the two actually meet in the ring, it has more meaning than if they fought in tag matches for three weeks beforehand. The heat would not only be maintained, but the anticipation could build up more heat, in most decent feuds.
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Since: 3.1.02
From: C-Bus, Ohio

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#19 Posted on
That's one good thing about Austin-Guerrero right now. They've had some interaction, but they haven't actually wrestled. I can only think of one time they've even wrestled together (Radicalz vs. Austin-Rock-Chyna-Gunn in a Raw main event, only remember cause I was there) I'm looking forward to it, even if I see no way in hell Guerrero wins.



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Since: 13.1.02

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#20 Posted on

    Originally posted by Freeway420
    Alas, with the recent SHIT the WWF has put out...it's really made me long for the days of old school heels. The way Ric Flair was, before he turned into the generic crazy old man that he is today... I mean, whatever happened to:
    -distracting the referee?
    -going for the title?
    -grabbing the tights on pinfalls?
    -stealing the face's woman?
    -raking the eyes? bell claps?
    -putting the feet up on the ropes for leverage?


Except for bell claps almost every heel wins like this now. In fact, it's getting so bad that the only heel that doesn't cheat to win is Brock.

Distracting the ref: Any NWO member, any heel tag team, Chris Jericho, Tajiri (the refs almost never see him spit the mist), Ric Flair, William Regal (Come on, the brass knuckles is pretty old school), Undertaker, Eddy Guerrero

Going for the title: Just about everyone...?

Grabbing the tights on pinfall: There's at least one of these every show

Stealing the face's woman: Last I remember was the Hurricane stealing Molly from Spike

Raking the eyes: Ric Flair still does this 3 or 4 times a match, and most midcard heels like Christian and Regal do it sometimes too

Feet on the ropes for leverage: Same as tights on pinfall
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