Originally posted by SimbaYou're joking, right? You're judging loyalty on working through potential career ending injuries? Granted, a throat injury is definitely serious stuff and I'm taking nothing away from HHH's efforts in both injury-plagued matches. But, c'mon... you're comparing apples and oranges here and quite frankly, it's a very piss poor argument in defense of "company loyalty".
No, I was judging company loyalty based on doing what you're told to do without bitching and whining and taking your ball and going home. The only reason the WWE would bring Austin back into the WWE is in hopes of increasing business. The only thing Austin did for the WWE was adequately play a character that was written for him. There are dozens of people that could have gotten over just as successfully with the same gimmick. I'm not saying that HHH is any better than Austin or anybody else but he's certainly not below them. The only person who Vince McMahon truly owes is himself. Without Vince, there wouldn't have been a Stone Cold or Rock but without Austin or Rock or even Hogan, Vince still could have succeeded. Not to say that the wrestlers didn't bear some responsibility in the popularity of their characters but, even at it's peak with the NWO, how many stars did WCW have that were world famous names even to non-wrestling fans? Flair is the ONLY WCW star who could even come close to qualifying for this. Ask someone who has never watched wrestling who Hulk Hogan or Steve Austin or the Rock is and they'll know. Ask them who Sting or Scott Steiner or Lex Luger is and they'll have no idea. (Ok, so they might say "that crappy singer" when you ask about Sting.)
My point, if I had one (which I probably don't) is that all this talking about earning spots and who deserves to be at the top is ridiculous. These are actors and fictional characters. How many other TV shows do you think have dozens of messageboards and news sites on which their fans debate whether such-and-such actor deserves to be the star of the show? Politics happen just as much on sitcoms as they do in the WWE. How many times have we read about contract disputes regarding the Friends cast? They're making over a million dollars an episode and we're bitching because HHH won't let RVD win a scripted fight.
Originally posted by oldschoolheroBe careful what you say, hypocrisy lurks around every corner. But then not many people acknowledge hypocrisy on this board anyway-it destroys too many theories and damages too much impartiality.
There's another truth to hypocrisy--it makes people MONEY!
HHH and Austin are actually very similar. The only difference, and this is a BIG difference: Drawing money. When Austin was on top the WWE was hitiing record highs. With HHH on top ratings are down, buyrates are down, and house show attendence is down. So why then is HHH on top if he's not doing anything for the company. I mean if he was such a company guy, wouldn't he step back into a lesser feud and let someone else have their shot?
Going back to the original topic, I'd love to see HHH be like the Rock: do the big job for somebody and dissappear for a couple months, and then come back with a ton of motivation and fire. If he could attain his 2000 form again, most of my problems with him would be gone.
It's like a koala bear crapped a rainbow in my brain!
Originally posted by Spaceman SpiffOK, I'll say it: HHH is below Austin. Austin did way more for the WWF/E than HHH ever did, so that's why Austin is above him. (Austin is still wrong for walking out, though)
What exactly did Austin do for the company besides spew catch phrases that other people wrote for him and exhibit mediocre (even by his own previous standards) in ring ability? You seem to be unable to grasp that fact that overness has little to do with hard work. Do you think the average fan gives a shit how hard someone worked to get their spot. Austin happened to luck into a character that a lot of people enjoyed watching. As I've already said, there are dozens of people that could have played the same role with just as much success. Hell, had they given it to someone who was physically healthy and had some in-ring talent, they probably could have made the 3:16 character even more popular that Austin. Austin has done absolutely nothing than anybody else couldn't do given the chance.
HHH is comparable to Flair or Hogan? The 'only difference' between Austin and HHH for this thread is Austin drew money?
Christ, you'd have to be twenty or under to believe any of that for a single minute. You're comparing literally decades that started building a circuit, then a TV show, then a different industry versus one tremendous hot streak that lasted about one year plus.
And let's end this fiction/revisionist history that says the IWC was always down on Trips. IWC helped MAKE Trips, when he was working his ass off as an unacknowledged number one heel, then when he was the acknowledged heel. Anyone remember who was RSPW's wrestler of the year once and second the next year? C'mon.
While I appreciated that InVerse did his best two jobs at tweaking the noses of all Triple HHHaters in the two lengthy posts above, let's keep the discussion grounded in reality that goes a little deeper, historically and factually, than what y'all did on summer vacation. Okay, kids? Thanks.
Ringmistress, I once had a lover who liked to sink her chompers into my CHEST at key moments, so you can bite my ears any ol' time.
M. Cole: Oh no, what's Angle going to do with that chair. Tazz: Well, I think he wants to, you know, HIT HIM with it.
"We're pretty sure we know how the universe started, but we don't know what some of our own internal organs are for. Bet few intelligent species have hit THAT exacta!"
Originally posted by InVerse ______________________________ The only thing Austin did for the WWE was adequately play a character that was written for him. There are dozens of people that could have gotten over just as successfully with the same gimmick. ---------------------------------------------------------- OH REALLY? Name five for me, eeef yew weel?
That's also ignoring the widely held notion that Austin himself came up with the character in the first place. By all accounts, he developed the Stone Cold persona that pushed the WWF back into the public eye. It was his character in there against Bret Hart and Vince McMahon that, even before The Rock developed, turned the company's fortune around and put them on the winning track that they'd been off since the end of Hogan's run. Austin was the man, via the character he developed and played perfectly, who got them the media attention (how soon we forget his epic role as Jake Cage, the monkeynapping cop who played by his own rules, much to the chagrin of Nash Bridges and the guy Cheech played.)
Also, apparently, how quickly people forget how good he was in the ring. He had excellent, highly enjoyable matches against a variety of opponents during his rise (the rise that took the WWF with him), and those were the matches that got people in. There were great matches against people like Vince and the Undertaker as well as HBK and Bret Hart. And the two matches that made him - and this is what makes him different than HHH - saw him not only looking vulnerable and thus building his opponent up and raising the stakes, payoff and interest of everyone involved but actually LOSING. He lost both of those matches to Bret, and not in a way that made his opponent look like crap or a joke. He lost in a way that made his character more vulnerable and more human. He was outsmarted and outwrestled. And it only made people more interested and had them coming back for more.
And after he came back from the neck surgery in 2000, he was back to putting on great matches again. His Raw and SmackDown matches against Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit were incredible, and despite being so popular that he probably didn't have to, the guy with the newly surgically-repaired neck let these two fling him around the ring and drop him on his neck and back repeatedly to get them over. Benoit gave him ten German suplexes in a row in one match. Angle destroyed him with rapid-fire snap suplexes and superplexes. And they were great matches.
That combination of creating a wildly popular character - arguably one of the two or three most popular in the history of the business - putting on matches that connected with the crowd and made them want to see what came next and turning the company around, that's what made people want to keep tuning in to see Stone Cold on top.
I hate the terms "hater" or "hating on"...I don't hate on something, I just hate it. And the HHH-related programming since he returned from his injury (and for me, going back to at least when he was revealed as the man behind Rikishi) is something I hate. He's been going for far too long without comeuppance, without helping develop stories or characters I want to see. I'm willing to admit that I frankly don't think that he's nearly as entertaining in the ring or on the mic as Austin or Rock today or Flair at his peak, and that it's therefore a mistake to use him in the manner they were used, as the man above all others. He needs to have other people there to help him get things right again, and there should be no shame in that. And that means accepting that he needs to help others reach his level of importance on the show and give them the chance to generate renewed fan interest while there are still fans to care. Austin and those around him had an idea of what the fans might want to see, and they were right. That doesn't appear to be the case with HHH and those around him at the moment, so why not try something or someone else?
HHH is a product of the WWE machine. It took almost a YEAR for the fans to buy into him as legitimate and that was only after headlining a summerslam with austin/foley/ventura...beating foley for the title...marrying stephanie beating up vince and becoming the focus of the show...retiring foley and then getting the rub from the Rock.
Steve Austin SAVED the WWE and he wasn't shoved down our throats to do so. Bret Hart didn't put him over...the Undertaker didn't put him over. Until Wrestlemania 14 his biggest win was against Owen Hart. The WWF was dead in the water in 97 and Montreal was supposed to have been the death rattle. Instead the fed survived and thrived THANKS to Austin. And for anyone to criticize his workrate is out of his mind because the main events were the ONLY reason to buy ppvs until 1999. I guess those matches with Benoit and Jericho in 2001 never happened either
And enough with the Vince McMahon is a genius BS. He had NOTHING to do with the creation of the Stone Cold character. If he DID they wouldn't have given him The Ringmaster and have Dibiase do his interviews. It was only AFTER they let Steve be himself that things clicked.
Shit..apparently Dr. Unlikely said everything I said here seconds earlier
My roommate, a student of guitar, always tells me that any band could go through any town and pick up any guitar player who knew how to play their stuff and they would sound just the same. That's crap. No guitar player, no matter hwo good is going to make Aerosmith sound just the same as Joe Perry or Brad Whitford would.
The same holds true here. Anyone could have played the role Austin played? That's a bigger bunch of crap. Take a talented midcarder from the time -- say Marc Mero. Put Marc Mero in the same situation as Austin. Let him do everthing Austin did in late 96-2001. Does it work? Hell no it doesn't work.
Austin brought intensity like no one (except maybe Shamrock) I had ever seen. The snarling facial expressions, the strut, the look of utter surprise when somethng goes his way. His heel run in 2001 only showed me one thing -- the man can play any character and make it entertaining as hell. HHH, on the other hand, can't make the one character he has been playing since 1999 entertaining at all.
Now try this, take any musclehead midcarder from 1999 (when Trips was in the corporation -- thats really when this began). Say Test for example. Let him do everything that HHH has done since then. Would it still work the same? Yes it would. Because Triple H the person, has brought nothing to the character. As someone mentioned before, the character is 100% WWE Machine.
Isn't the charge that Triple H is being ragged on for the kind of politicking that Flair, Austin, and Hogan always did nonsense, anyway? Hogan has absorbed more 'net hate that Triple H ever has; if people are mellower on him nowadays, it's only because he finally seems to be gone for good (knock on wood). And Austin came in for his own share of IWC flak from his heavy-handed political games in 1999, holding down Jeff Jarrett and, yes, Triple H.
Me, I hated Austin in 1999 more than I hate Triple H now, for much the same reasons: he was a broken-down shadow of his former self who clung to the spotlight by sheer force of name recognition, brawling his way listlessly through bad PPV main events. But Austin managed to recharge his batteries and have an entertaining run in 2001; I'm still waiting to see any sign of that from Triple H.
Aserje ja de je de jebe tude jebere sebiunouba majabi an de bugui an de buididipi!
Originally posted by RingmistressIt's more than obvious that the IWC, doesn't like HHH very much. That's fine. They say that he should be off TV for a long time... Okay. IF that's how you all feel, if you don't like him, and want him gone, where should he go and what should he do? Smartass comments should be kept to a minimum.
(edited by Ringmistress on 26.11.02 0819)
Hey, here is a crazy idea. If HHH gets injured and put out of action for a while, keep him off TV while he recuperates. In the past year, they did it for Kane, Benoit, Bradshaw, among others.
Oh and when he comes back, to get him some heel heat, once in a while, do something to make him look like a fool . . . . . something like . . . . . . . . show him using . . .asscream!
"What do you mean 'Parts Unknown'? Are you telling me he doesn't have a social security number so we can track him down? How does he get a paycheck?" - G. Monsoon
SWEET JESUS! So many people are making up facts here. Okay, let me warn that this is LONG but I feel it is important. Austin. Austin is, in my opinion, inbetween what Inverse is saying, and what the Masked Hungarian and Dr. Unlikely are saying. Yes, it is a fact that Austin came up with the Stone Cold persona. But did he write Stone Cold's storylines? No. However, he did come up with the Austin 3:16 line but what I hate to see people believing is that Austin walked into an arena with 50 people and then overnight sold out the Astrodome.
Ladies and gentlemen, the WWF was not "dead in the water" in 1997. In January of 1997, long before Austin was even a half babyface, the Rumble in the Alamodome sold as well as any large building had sold in the 1990's. It was a better gate than WM 8 at the Hoosier Dome in 1992, second only to Summerslam in Wembley, also in 1992, which was, in any event, a money-losing venture because of the time zone thing. And as the world's most educated and objective Hulk Hogan mark, I'll pop another balloon. The WWF was losing money LONG before the end of Hogan's "run". By 1990 the WWF was starting the first of six or seven money losing years. Hogan was part-time at best from '90 onwards and stale by then regardless. He came back in '91 to take the title because numbers were not holding up with Warrior at the helm and also, in part, because McMahon's prostitution of the Gulf War had parents turning the sport off. By '92 Hogan was working hardly at all and left for huge portions of the year after his Mania 8 "classic" with Sid Justice. I don't believe he returned until January '93. All this was happening under the shadow of two HUGE scandals in the WWF. One was the sex scandal and one was the steroid scandal.
The first implicated several long-time WWF officials as sexual assaulters. Is assaulters a word? I digress. Pat Patterson was noted as a homosexual man who watched talent in the fucking shower and made them uncomfortable, as well as promised them higher positions in the compant in exchange for sexual activity. He was forced out of the company, waited a couple years, and then came back.
The WWF did not turn a profit for a LONG time. And with these scandals going on, Vince had no choice but to market kiddie crap and small guys without huge musculature on his TVs and PPVs. Thus Doink and Duke the Dumpster and T.L. Hopper and Henry O Godwinn. Finally, after McMahon was exonerated, WCW comes in with Hogan, and Macho Man following, and the first week of Nitro defeats RAW. The war begins. Hogan had already retired from the WWF, had been pushed out because he was the main hand around during the period in which roids ruled. A lot of fingers pointed at Hulk, as if he was the only pro athlete on the juice, when, it was well-know how rampant it was in hockey, football, and baseball especially. Now he was off in Turnerland just when things were finally starting to click in the WWF. Anyhow, the WWF had its first successful year, relatively speaking, in 1996 with Shawn as champion but within a month of this new standard two of about five main eventers leave, in Hall and Nash. While Shawn's ratings slipped slightly, they held consistent to what Bret had drawn before dropping the title at Mania 12 in Anaheim. And house show attendance improved with Michaels as the main. Austin had come in as the ringmaster in '95 (as early as January). When he went Stone Cold, the time was ripe. Bret was gone, and Shawn couldn't work with Hart anyway, and if Bret returned he and Shawn were being kept apart till Mania 13 in '97, and Undertaker was a cartoon trying to get Foley over. Vader was hardly a long-term main eventer though was getting monster-over as a heel, and Sid was...well, Sid. Bulldog and Owen could be counted on for occasional main events but were mostly tag-team material. If there was EVER a time to become a star, it was then. Even so, Austin was not instantly well-received as many on this board seem to believe. He was a hated heel.
What made Austin a babyface by proxy was the ongoing bitch-i-fication of Bret Hart. When Bret returned in late '96 he came back different. Gone was the cool, calm, and collected Bret we'd known and loved. It was hard to believe that Bret was ever percieved as cool, but he was. Now, he was always seeming to be hiding this insane jealousy of HBK. Always running down HBK even though HBK was the top babyface at the time. Bret, in his last year at the WWF, NEVER acted like the old Bret. Always whined. And it was a stark contrast to the bad-ass attitude of Austin. Before, if you didn't like the ass-shaking faggotry of Shawn Michaels, there was no one else to go to but Bret. Now there was an option. He was a bad-ass. He was swearing and doing things we'd never seen before. He was Austin. That was the choice people made. Keep in mind, also, that Bret's long absence did not add up to a dent in the ratings when he returned, and Vince surely noted this.
The Bret heel turn, which at the time was the closest thing the company could do to the gravity of a Hogan turn, was meant for the same effect Hogan's had been. An older star losing his edge and spotlight to a new dog turns on the fans who have forgotten his blood and sweat. Andre set the tone for it a decade earlier. That brought on the USA V.S. Canada thing. Make no mistake, this was the most successful angle of the 90's for the WWF up to that point. It got more people talking, and it was the first time we'd seen allied nations against one another. I lived and live now, in both countries, and people on either side of the border went NUTS over this shit. With Bret now a heel for the 1st time since 1987 and Shawn, of course, embarking upon an on-again-off-again hunt for his smile, Austin was clearly the go-to-man. When the stuff with McMahon happened and Bret was ousted, there was nothing stopping Austin. But success like the kind Austin enjoyed is a PROCESS. It was the gradual building of Bret's heel turn, the USA/Canada thing, all these great angles over time developing that gave the Austin/McMahon feud the platform it needed to get over how it did. Had they done it in 1995, no one would have noticed because it would have been sandwiched between an Alex "the Pug" Porteau match and a segment involving Kloudi and the Body Donnas.
Dr. Unlikely states Austin LOST his matches to Bret and not by making anyone look like a bitch. While I see the point he is trying to make, the Trips comparison, who the fuck was Austin in Nov. of 1996 to make Bret look like a "bitch"? He hadn't sold out the Manhattan center, much less MSG or the Astrodome. Bret was a cornerstone. Austin was lucky to get the program and it was his time to be made. Once Austin was made however, he did nothing to make anyone else.
I stand by that. People say he made the Rock. I say that's bullshit. By 1998, Hollywood Hogan's act was getting old in the nWo, as was the nWo itself and by 1998 the hottest heel in the country was the Rock. His lines, his charisma, his long title reign with the IC belt which he got from Austin without a match or without Austin laying down (a bad habit of Texan wrestlers) were a part of it. Rock was good-looking, he was funny and he was BY FAR the favorite of everyone I talked to at the time. He was cool heel you could boo and cheer all at once. Austin was on top but if he had great matches during this period I didn't see them. Which match was it? Was it with Shawn? Because that match had Shawn in it. Was it with Foley? Because Foley carries whoever he works with...I mean was it the stirring summer series with Kane and 'Taker? Because those matches ended up falling WAY short of expectations. The Rock was making HIMSELF a star in this period. When he got elevated to the number 2 face through no decision of his own, through the fans respecting and loving him, it was only logical to turn him heel against the number 1 face.
The match at Mania in '99 was a great match. Rock was highly entertaining in these contests and he was made after those great matches, but to say Austin "made" him, as Rock himself seems to suggest in interviews, is insane. And he hasn't made anyone since.
Those who say Rock and Triple H "held the company together" while Austin was out are out of their minds. Numbers, quite contrarily to this theory, went UP when Austin left because the Rock was doing just fine as top dog. He was doing SO well that every month in RAW magazine and in every Ross Report JR felt the need to remind us of the Rattlesnake's recovery status and statement that he "is STILL the man". Numbers for Rock and Shane McMahon the night after WM 2000 blew away anything that Austin ever drew. He was proven as unecessary during this time. And Triple H was VITAL as the main event foil to the Rock, the only person who could feud with the Rock for so long and have it come off as a feud the same calibre of Austin/Rock. I never liked Trips, and yes, he had amazing workers to help get him over, but he was the chicken to the Rock's egg during this time, or the egg to Rock's chicken. Point being, you couldn't have one without the other.
Even as a HEEL, Austin didn't job cleanly. He gets put in the crossface AND the walls of jericho and doesn't tap at KOTR 2001. He "taps" to Angle at Unforgiven while holding the ropes, so it looks like the heel got screwed out of the title, even when he KNEW he was getting the belt back a couple weeks later. Who did Austin make during this time? About the same number of ppl Triple H is making now.
Absolutely shit-all motherfucking nobody, is who.
And I don't want Austin to come back. I don't want another non-jobbing guy who wasn't delivering ratings to come back and not job again. I don't want "what" to make a comeback. I don't want ANOTHER Triple H.
And where do I want Trips to go? That's simple. The fuck away from the main events.
My best quotes from the NOV. 21 Smackdown Recap: -"a bath sponge is a King-Size bed to Rey Mysterio Jr" -"He stands on the apron for the west-coast-pop, a cool move with a very, very homosexual name." -"Through this felled wall we see Crash Holly lying on a table being orally pleasured by the trainer." -"Here comes Benoit! Crisp Benoit! Why do I call him Crisp? Because everything he does is CRISPY CRISP!" -"The shmuck in the Andre suit comes down. They hug. I find myself strangely aroused."
Anyone have a online resource where I can find a catalog of every single WWF Coliseum video ever made, and better yet some sort of price guide? I saw some on ebay, and some of the prices are incredible; $70 for a mint condition Hart Foundation video?