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The W - Baseball - I Don't Generally Condone Violence.... (Page 2)
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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by dunkndollaz
    This guy could join Mrs. O'Leary's Cow in the Chicago Hall of Shame......

And he should. The Orioles were victims of this(in the revrese sense) with Jeffrey Maier. And it sucks because it changes the entire dichotmoy of the game. Sure, if Gonzalez makes the play things change. But who says Prior throws that same pitch with two outs?

I think the Cubs wins this thing tonight.



2003 WORLD SERIES(like I said it would be all along)



Please Believe It!
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Since: 6.8.02
From: St. Louis

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.71
I think the point is that after the fan interfered, there was still no runs, 1 guy on, no outs. Hell had the SS made the play he could have turned the DP and maybe a run scores, not 8. Blaming this on a fan is just another excuse made by fans because the cubs choked last night. They still have a good chance of winning today as long as they play fundamentally sound baseball. What they dont need is a bunch of pessimistic cubs fans saying "we're doomed because of the fan interference, that cost us our only chance of winning" What they need are fans that say "Yesterday sucked, but we still got one of the best pitchers going today so lets get the win"



Mr. Burns: You are of course familiar with our state usury laws?
Homer:U-sur-y?
Mr. Burns: Oh silly me, I must have just used a word that doesn't exist.
redsoxnation
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Since: 24.7.02

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.33
First, back to Game 7 in '86: The Red Sox did jump out to a 3-0 lead on a Dwight Evans home run. Everyone forgets that.
Onto this game: I'm sorry, but my Red Sox instinct took over when that play happened and knew that the Cubs were going to go in the tank at that point. The way the stands are set up, the fan had no clue that Alou was right under him jumping up for the ball though. However, the Cubs are dead. And, for the the second straight year, General Dusty's boys collapse 5 outs away from winning a Series in Game 6.
As a side note: I'd like to welcome Cubs fans to the darkside. No longer do you have to wear the tag of lovable losers (and in case '84 is brought up as introducing you to the dark side, you weren't beating the Tigers. No one was beating the Tigers. When the AL has an unbeatable team, MLB uses the Padres as ceremonial whipping boys). Now, you don't have to deal with going to Wrigley for the shear love of the game. You can become miserable and paranoid and call for the manager to be fired because of a position change in the 4th inning of the 3rd exhibition game of the season. True, this will age you 5 years for every baseball season, but it makes it that much more fun.



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Since: 6.1.02
From: Outer reaches of your mind

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.95
This is ridiculous. The ball was on the fans side of the fence, hell at best on top of the rail. The fans pretty much just had his hand up in the air. Even if he just sat their Alou had to jump in and get it. Which is hardly 100% guarantee catch as Alou claims. Did have a chance of catching it? Sure. But hey you had to go in the stance and it's not guaranteed that the fan will part like the red sea even at home.

The way people/Cubs fans are talking about it. It sounds like Alou was standing on the outfield warning track. Looking up knowing that the ball was going to fall into his glove. And the fan leaned over the rail with butterfly net catching device in hand and stole the ball from the outfielder therefore resulting in a 2 out grandslam homerun (Lets save that for game 7 LoL).

I like the Cubs and I've been cheering for them. But hearing players and their manager blaming the fan and saying "He must be a Marlines fan" (Naa he's a human being, he sees a ball and his reflex is "Hey I would like that"). And saying how that fan was the start of all of the 8th inning ills for them, COME ON. Blame SS-Gonzalez for his inability to catch a slow 2 bouncer his way. Blame your team doing their best Oakland A's impression by completely melting down at make or break time.

You got Kerry f'n Wood, Game 7 at home. Sack up, Play all 9 innings. And stop beating yourselves





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Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.19
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    What any other fan would do? Hardly. There have been countless plays in the playoffs were a foul ball lands in the first couple rows of seats, and I would say just about every time the people know enough to let a play be made. They don't reach out and interfere with the fielder; hell, the man's hand was in Alou's glove that's how close it was. It's not about making "good game decisions", it's about paying attention to the play and remember that a ticket gives you the right to be a spectator, not a participant.


I think at a regular season game there could've been a more baseball-savvy fan sitting there who would've known to leave it alone if it would help the Cubs and get in the way if it would've helped the Cubs. However, I have seen what happens with Johnny-come-lately fans who don't know what the hell they are doing first hand in Seattle, reaching out and grabbing a ball that forces a Mariners runner to stop at third who otherwise would've scored.

I wonder if (as an offshoot of the curse) the baseball gods are waiting to see how the fans of the Cubs treat this guy before deciding if the Cubs can win the NLCS. If they treat the guy badly, maybe Mark Redman matches zeros...but if they treat the guy well...?





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Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.47
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    What any other fan would do? Hardly. There have been countless plays in the playoffs were a foul ball lands in the first couple rows of seats, and I would say just about every time the people know enough to let a play be made. They don't reach out and interfere with the fielder; hell, the man's hand was in Alou's glove that's how close it was. It's not about making "good game decisions", it's about paying attention to the play and remember that a ticket gives you the right to be a spectator, not a participant.

    As for the argument that no one got on base that play so it doesn't matter, that's bogus. If the fan stays in his seat, there's one on and 2 out. Instead, the batter who should have been out got on, making it 2 on with 1 out. Would it have made a difference? No one can say conclusively. The fact is the inning went differently because a fan interfered. To me, if a fan doesn't know enough to stay out of the way of the play, he shouldn't be at the ballpark.


Keep in mind the fan did NOT reach into the field of play, the player reached into the stands. Making a play on a ball that is hit into the stands is his right as a spectator, and it's part of the reason people buy tickets. Had he reached onto the field of play, I would agree that he was interfering (however, it also would have been called an out if the umpire felt that was the case). But the stands is fan domain. If the player can out-fight the fans for the out, so be it. If not, foul balls into the stands are part of the game. (We are also ASSUMING he would make the catch. He probably would have, but maybe not, it was a tough reach, and he probably would have had to dealt with the fan even if he hadn't reached for the ball, especially if the others continued to reach. The fan would have had a tough time fighting the other fans to get out of the way) Had it been in Florida, he definately would have had the same thing happen, would the fans be excused then? I remember some kid who was pratically made a hero for catching a ball that ultimately was ruled a home run that a player may have had a shot to catch had the kid not caught it first.

And why just blame the one guy. At least two other fans (maybe more) tried to make a play on the ball, and would have if that guy hadn't been there. Shouldn't they be criticized too?

Look, I haven't watched baseball (until last night) in a while, but I used to watch all the time before the strike, and I've seen fans make plays on foul balls more often than I've seen fans get out of the way (I've seen both, but most of the time fans are just excited to get an opportunity for a souvenir. Heck, don't you think this guys motivation was, "Wow, I'm going to take home a baseball from the game where the Cubs won the opportunity to go to the World Series.", not "OK, here's my chance to cost the team I root for an out!"?)

The Cubs and their fans are looking for a reason to lose. They're toast.



Everything that is wrong in this world can be blamed on Freddie Prinze Jr.
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Goetta








Since: 2.1.02
From: Chandler, AZ

Since last post: 360 days
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#27 Posted on
Having been a Cubs fan for all my 38 years on earth, last night was very painful. Did the fan make a dumb move? Hell yes, but that is not what cost them the game.

I have not seen anyone mention the fact that Prior was losing his stuff and Dusty stayed with him too long in that inning. Kind of exactly the opposite of what he was criticzed for in the World Series last year when he yanked Russ Ortiz with a 5-0 lead and they promptly tanked in the 6th game to lose 6-5.

Prior pitched a great game, but you have to have some confidence in your bullpen to finish out the 8th and 9th innings. I agree with the decision to leave Prior out there to start the inning, but after the walk to Castillo, they should have pulled him. The velocity on his fastball was down, and he was relying to much on the breaking ball.

That being said, they WILL win tonight and end 58 years of frustration. If it happens, I hope I never hear another word about a damn goat again!
Reverend J Shaft
Liverwurst








Since: 25.6.03
From: Home of The Big House

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.40
    Originally posted by spf2119
    But I have to say I hope that the "fan" who stopped Moises Alou from making that catch in the 8th inning of Game 6 of the NLCS got/gets beaten so badly that even his parents can't recognize him. There is no way on earth that guy should be walking out of Wrigley Field under his own power.


Nice. Wishing violence on another human because of a goddamned baseball game and a move that the majority of fans in that situation would probably do the same. It wasn't called fan intereference, the "fan" didn't make Gonzalez fumble the next ground ball, the "fan" didn't give up any of the runs in that inning. He was a Cubs fan (jeez, you think he was TRYING to cost the Cubs the game??) who made a mistake he would probably like to take back.

From all accounts, he was scared out of his mind, crying about the mistake. And you want him to get "beaten so badly that even his own parents can't recognize him"? Maybe you're the one who deserves the beating.

If the Cubs win tonight, it won't mean anything anyway. But a bunch of dumbasses will have wished death on a poor guy who just wanted a souvenir.

(edited by Reverend J Shaft on 15.10.03 1131)
J.T. Dutch
Pickled pork








Since: 3.1.02
From: SoCal 4 Life

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Y!:
#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.00
... It was a stupid decision by this alleged "Cubs fan" to go after the ball. He should have been paying attention to Alou -- any fan with even a little baseball knowledge would have known Alou would try to make a play, and would have stepped aside and let him attempt to make the catch.

If he wanted a free souvenir that damn bad, I'm sure the Cubs would have obliged him with a ball or something else if he had asked a ballboy or someone else on the field; it happens all the time. He certainly wouldn't have gone home empty-handed.

This type of "fan" stupidity likely cost the Cubs a precious out in a game where they COULD HAVE WENT TO THEIR FIRST WORLD SERIES IN 58 YEARS. From what I can see this idiot had obscenities and beer hurled in his direction. Hell, I think he got off easy. I hope the guy really enjoys that ball -- seeing as how it was more important to him than to see his team go to the World Series.







"It turns out that I have a bad shoulder, and that's why I've sucked all year"
-- Shawn Green

J.T. Dutch
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Since: 6.8.02
From: St. Louis

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.71
    Originally posted by J.T. Dutch
    ... It was a stupid decision by this alleged "Cubs fan" to go after the ball. He should have been paying attention to Alou -- any fan with even a little baseball knowledge would have known Alou would try to make a play, and would have stepped aside and let him attempt to make the catch.

    If he wanted a free souvenir that damn bad, I'm sure the Cubs would have obliged him with a ball or something else if he had asked a ballboy or someone else on the field; it happens all the time. He certainly wouldn't have gone home empty-handed.

    This type of "fan" stupidity likely cost the Cubs a precious out in a game where they COULD HAVE WENT TO THEIR FIRST WORLD SERIES IN 58 YEARS. From what I can see this idiot had obscenities and beer hurled in his direction. Hell, I think he got off easy. I hope the guy really enjoys that ball -- seeing as how it was more important to him than to see his team go to the World Series.




Statements like these make me ashamed to be a baseball fan. He didnt cost the cubs the game as many have pointed out, the cubs cost themselves the game. And if you are wishing physical harm on a guy because he made an honest mistake (and as pointed out several others were willing to make the same mistake), then that is just sad. The fan didnt cost them a shot at the world series, muffing easy groundballs and allowing 8 runs in one inning did.



Mr. Burns: You are of course familiar with our state usury laws?
Homer:U-sur-y?
Mr. Burns: Oh silly me, I must have just used a word that doesn't exist.
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.41
Let me make my stance on this perfectly clear.

Do not, in any way, threaten anyone on this board. Even if you feel that it is "in jest" or "obviously over the top". Mob mentalities feed on crap like this.

I am sickened, literally sickened, seeing responses that encourage harming the fan. Everyone who thinks this needs to take a reality break and think about how they would feel at the death or maiming of their father, brother, son, or best friend - because you are calling for that for a real human being who is probably at least one of those things. If you can't value a human life above a baseball game (even the world series) you need to seek out counseling.

Get some perspective.

I don't care if you disagree with me. I will be 24 hour banning anyone who posts anything about causing harm to anyone else from this point forward.



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Since: 15.10.03

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#32 Posted on
After the cubs lose tonight, I hope that fan becomes the posterboy for the reason they still haven't gone to the series in what is it? 95 years? I'd hate to go to school if i was that kid.
Battlezone
Potato korv








Since: 27.2.03
From: Seattle, Washington

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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.34
And now, in true, tabloid journalism fashion, the Chicago Sun-Times has printed the poor bastard's name, age, where he lives and where he works. They've been to his home and harassed his family.

God, I hate the media sometimes.



"If you're wowed by the prescience of 1993's Demolition Man-which mentions a President Arnold Schwarzenegger-consider this: The Chicago Cubs are now facing the Miami-based Florida Marlins in the baseball playoffs-much like an utterly far-out scenario predicted in 1989's Back to the Future Part II, which had the Cubs winning the World Series over "Miami". Too bad no one said anything about the Red Sox."
-Entertainment Weekly

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J.T. Dutch
Pickled pork








Since: 3.1.02
From: SoCal 4 Life

Since last post: 2673 days
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Y!:
#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.00
"Statements like these make me ashamed to be a baseball fan."

... I stand by each statement. I think the guy was an absolute idiot to go after that ball -- it was a playable ball. If he wanted a ball that bad, he would have likely received one ... especially if he stepped aside and Alou had caught that ball. I also think the guy got off easy -- I've seen and been at sporting events where a hell of a lot worse happened for less than what this clown did. Be as "ashamed" as you wish; nothing I said was shameful in any way.

"He didnt cost the cubs the game as many have pointed out, the cubs cost themselves the game."

I didn't say that he cost them the game. I said that he likely cost them a precious out. And, I've watched enough games over 20+ years as a baseball fan to know that: A) the last six outs are the toughest to get, and B) each of those six outs changes the game plan and the pitching/defense strategies. Anyone who doesn't think so has not watched enough baseball.

"And if you are wishing physical harm on a guy"

... I'm not. Personally, I wouldn't have hit the guy or even tossed beer or anything else on him. I'm sure I probably would have made my feelings known verbally, though. Many fans at the game WERE verbally bashing the guy, and in the heat of the emotions at that game, I don't blame them AT ALL.

"because he made an honest mistake (and as pointed out several others were willing to make the same mistake)"

... I disagree. I've never had the desire to interfere with a playable ball in all of the times I've gone to games (and there have been many). I was yelling "Get out of the way!" when I saw on TV that Alou had a chance at the ball. I know many diehard fans who were saying the same thing -- some of them were watching the game with me at that moment.

"The fan didnt cost them a shot at the world series, muffing easy groundballs and allowing 8 runs in one inning did."

... Whether you want to believe it or not, the fan's stupidity affected that entire inning. If Alou makes the play on that ball, everything about that inning and that situation changes. Gonzales doesn't try to rush the groundball at him because he only needs one out, not two, and he's far less likely to make an error. Prior's focus as a pitcher is that much sharper, also. Say what you want, but players are not robots. Their mental outlook changes as the game situations change. That play had a huge effect on the inning and the game.

And, furthermore, as for players and fans taking the game "too seriously" and how they need "perspective" and all this other crap -- hey, who the hell are you to judge someone else? Do you have any idea, any clue about the years and the money that goes into being a diehard fan of a team? Or, better yet, how about the community of fellow fans and friends who have celebrated and suffered with you? Are you saying that life has to be all work and drudgery with no interest and no care about our games and our teams and our release from the everyday crap we all have to deal with in our lives? I saw people who had to be 60-70 years old or more at that game. I'm sure they've been fans for 40-50 years, and have had their hearts broken time after time by the Cubs and their bizarre and terrible failures. And I know they care. They SHOULD. It matters.

My father was an Angels fan since their inception in 1961, and he cared deeply about the team and the game; deeply enough to pass that love down to me. When we made out first-ever trek to Cooperstown last year, he was emotional and he was proud. It meant everything for him to be there, especially since he had to overcome a life-threatening illness (Multiple Myeloma) that struck him in 2000. He and I will remember that trip for the rest of our lives. When the Angels finally broke through and won it all later that year, we were in the stands at Game 7 to witness it live -- and, again, he was emotional and he was proud. And, you're damn right that we will remember. It was one of the best days of his life; and even though I'm a Dodger fan, it was a great day in my life, too.

It's not life and death, of course. Does anyone want to see people get hurt over sports? No, and I'm not condoning it. But it's important, and there is rightful emotion and passion about it. And, what about the players and coaches themselves? What about Dusty Baker and Jack McKeon -- these men have put YEARS in as managers and coaches to get that one chance to be at the pinnacle of their profession, the World Championship. Or better yet, how about Sammy Sosa or Ivan Rodriguez? You don't think they give a damn, after all the years they've come up short? Are you going to say that elections don't matter to a politician, or that drug-dealing is no big deal to police officers? So, save the sanctimonious horseshit about how sports don't REALLY matter, because what you're generally saying is that they don't matter TO YOU. And if they don't matter to you, then don't watch. Don't read. Don't spend your money. But don't tell me that getting to and winning the World Series isn't important. That's MY perspective.





"It turns out that I have a bad shoulder, and that's why I've sucked all year"
-- Shawn Green

J.T. Dutch
Doc_whiskey
Frankfurter








Since: 6.8.02
From: St. Louis

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.69
I think all I and guru were saying is when you are willing to condone violent actions against someone over a baseball game, then you need perspective. Who cares how many years its been, its just a baseball game. There is nothing you can't do the next day if your team didn't win. Saying this guy will get what he deserves because he may have spoiled an out in a game is pathetic.



Mr. Burns: You are of course familiar with our state usury laws?
Homer:U-sur-y?
Mr. Burns: Oh silly me, I must have just used a word that doesn't exist.
PNHDoug
Chaurice








Since: 15.10.03
From: Utah

Since last post: 4002 days
Last activity: 4000 days
#36 Posted on
JT,

You go and say that the players aren't robots....well, neither are the fans. Fans are human, too...and they make mistakes. It's oh so easy for all of us to go and play analyst after the fact. We can easily go and say that the Fans (since there were multiple fans going after the ball, not just the one everyone's blaming) should have stayed in their seats. Do you think that maybe he didn't think it was still a playable ball? Do you think that maybe he didn't see Alou coming? Do you think that maybe he was just watching the ball and nothing else? He made a mistake. People do that. Of course, if he happened to catch a Cubs foul ball, saving the Cubs an out, then everything would be fine, right?

So if, God Forbid, this guy goes and offs himself (or is murdered) because of all the death threats and general pressure from the "true Chicago Cub fans" out there, are you going to feel bad that it came to such a conclusion? Or are you going to feel that he got what he deserved, because he may have cost the Cubs the chance to go to the World Series? I bet you anything that most of these true Chicago Cubs fans will dance for joy if he dies one way or another.

Being a diehard fan does not give you (or any other diehard fan) carte blanche to go and act like an ass just because another human being made a mistake. So yeah, if Cubs fans want to go and make death threats towards another fan, then you're damn right I'm going to judge them for being jerks, and for taking baseball way to seriously.

I'm going to watch Game 7 and root for the Cubs, because I'd like to see them and the Red Sox in the WS. But the "true Cubs fans" that want to go and blame a fan for making a mistake, and then wish him dead or worse, get no sympathy from me. It's beyond pathetic, and there's no justification for it whatsoever.



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spf
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Fine, Guru is right, I hope no one does anything stupid to physically harm the guy or his family or anything of that ilk. That was raw anger that I was venting there. No one should lay a finger on this guy.

Am I allowed though to hope that should the Cubs lose tonight that someone reminds him of this every day for the rest of his life? Can he at least have to hear about his error on a regular basis? Because no, while this isn't worth hurting someone for, his action may have contributed to the negative feelings and heartbreak of MILLIONS of people. Does that not merit some pariah status?

The saddest part of this thing to me is that he already HAD a freaking ball from this game. Alou had flipped him one earlier in the game.

So no, I don't want him hurt. It was wrong of me to say that. I sure don't want him happy though.



Brenda Weiler - Cold Weather - Nov. 4. Playing Chicago Nov. 12

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Since: 6.8.02
From: St. Louis

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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.69
    Originally posted by spf2119
    Fine, Guru is right, I hope no one does anything stupid to physically harm the guy or his family or anything of that ilk. That was raw anger that I was venting there. No one should lay a finger on this guy.

    Am I allowed though to hope that should the Cubs lose tonight that someone reminds him of this every day for the rest of his life? Can he at least have to hear about his error on a regular basis? Because no, while this isn't worth hurting someone for, his action may have contributed to the negative feelings and heartbreak of MILLIONS of people. Does that not merit some pariah status?

    The saddest part of this thing to me is that he already HAD a freaking ball from this game. Alou had flipped him one earlier in the game.

    So no, I don't want him hurt. It was wrong of me to say that. I sure don't want him happy though.


I honestly dont think he is feeling too happy right about now anyways.



Mr. Burns: You are of course familiar with our state usury laws?
Homer:U-sur-y?
Mr. Burns: Oh silly me, I must have just used a word that doesn't exist.
Freeway
Scrapple








Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

Since last post: 306 days
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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.96
Here's my piece:

The fans are there to watch the Chicago Cubs & the Florida Marlins play to decide who goes to the World Series. Without the Cubs & Marlins playing, the fans would have nothing to do on game nights. So, out of respect to the teams & the players, they owe it to them to stay out of the way. If the ball is playable, get the hell out of the f*cking way. If it's not...grab it. What's done is done, though. Alou missed the ball due to the fan, and the Cubs were dumb enough to let that rattle 'em. They deserved to lose last night.

They'll know better than that tonight.

They'll win.



FLAMES: 2-1-0-0; 4 points
CUBS: NLCS Tied 3-3; DIE FAN DIE
STAMPEDERS: 5-11; Officially out of playoff contention
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 199 days
Last activity: 18 hours
#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.53
    Originally posted by spf2119
    Fine, Guru is right, I hope no one does anything stupid to physically harm the guy or his family or anything of that ilk. That was raw anger that I was venting there. No one should lay a finger on this guy.

    Am I allowed though to hope that should the Cubs lose tonight that someone reminds him of this every day for the rest of his life? Can he at least have to hear about his error on a regular basis? Because no, while this isn't worth hurting someone for, his action may have contributed to the negative feelings and heartbreak of MILLIONS of people. Does that not merit some pariah status?

    The saddest part of this thing to me is that he already HAD a freaking ball from this game. Alou had flipped him one earlier in the game.

    So no, I don't want him hurt. It was wrong of me to say that. I sure don't want him happy though.


Hey, as long as EVERY member of this years Cubs team gets reminded that they blew the chance at the World Series every time that someone reminds the 'fan' of it.

Seriously, my family is a bunch of die-hard Cubs fans. Before even one pitch was thrown in the eigth, what was said? "Why haven't they pulled Prior? He's pitched a full game. He's not gonna make it out of the inning."

My grandfather said that, and he was right, and Dusty was wrong. Prior shouldn't have been pitching. And that's the true mistake of the eigth inning.

-Jag



To Make Jeb Feel Better: ;)

Note to self:

The less I post, the fewer chances I have to look like an ass.
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