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The W - Baseball - HOF Ballots Mailed (Page 3)
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TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 104 days
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#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.28
    Originally posted by spf
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
        Originally posted by spf
        Funny thing is I don't think I would vote for him, but I am much more protective of the HOF. That's why I despise the existence of the Veteran's Committee.


      There are some very worthy hall of famers who only got in because of the veterans committee. Johnny Mize, Arky Vaughn, Frank "Home Run" Baker, Pee Wee Reese, Larry Doby, Three Finger Brown and probably a few others were all gigantic oversights by the writers and corrected by the veterans committee.

    I would argue against some of those.


And I'd like to hear those arguments. I think the VC has inducted some very worthy people. There have been some not-so-good selections, sure, but the ones they have gotten right justify the committee's existence, I'd say.

Where does your logic stop? Why don't you say a person should not be selected by the writers in their 15th year because they've already been passed over 14 times? What if the writers don't like Barry Bonds because he's been a giant, giant dick to them over the years, and they don't elect him? Barry Bonds may be a bad example, but what about a player who is borderline but maybe the writers can't be objective because they don't like him? I think the VC serves an important purpose.
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Originally posted by spf
        Originally posted by TheBucsFan
          Originally posted by spf
          Funny thing is I don't think I would vote for him, but I am much more protective of the HOF. That's why I despise the existence of the Veteran's Committee.


        There are some very worthy hall of famers who only got in because of the veterans committee. Johnny Mize, Arky Vaughn, Frank "Home Run" Baker, Pee Wee Reese, Larry Doby, Three Finger Brown and probably a few others were all gigantic oversights by the writers and corrected by the veterans committee.

      I would argue against some of those.


    And I'd like to hear those arguments. I think the VC has inducted some very worthy people. There have been some not-so-good selections, sure, but the ones they have gotten right justify the committee's existence, I'd say.

    Where does your logic stop? Why don't you say a person should not be selected by the writers in their 15th year because they've already been passed over 14 times? What if the writers don't like Barry Bonds because he's been a giant, giant dick to them over the years, and they don't elect him? Barry Bonds may be a bad example, but what about a player who is borderline but maybe the writers can't be objective because they don't like him? I think the VC serves an important purpose.

I garbled my thought a bit. My quibble was not so much with the named players as many of the other VC selections. Bill James has an excellent look at the matter in "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame".

The V.C. had a purpose when there was still a large pool of people who were not given due consideration due to the varying procedures that existed during the 50's and 60's. Hence the fact most of the names you find that are justified are very old names (Baker, Brown, Vaughn). Once the BBWAA procedures became what they are I would say that anyone who has become eligible in the last 30 or so years has had a fair evaluation process and there is no need for further reexamination. And in the inverse to your issue I don't see why a guy should get in just because he had a lot of buddies when he played.

Or to ask the same question of you, where does it stop? The complaint has been that the VC isn't electing people because they don't want anyone else in their club, as though there is a mandate to always add from the rejected HOF. This year they have 10 modern players to choose from. Should all 10 of them get in over the next 5 years, marching in two at a time? Santo and Kaat this year? Allen and Torre next? Hodges and Wills in 2011? And once that backlog is cleared up throw another 10 names up there? Maybe Ken Boyer gets his time (his stats aren't much different than Santo's)? Or some of the names that we're rejecting from the current BBWAA ballot can get in line at the back door. We could combine two discussion issues in this thread and put in Alan Trammell through the VC once he leaves the writer's ballot.

The VC served a purpose once, and it served it to varying degrees of skill and integrity. But it now serves only one purpose as relates to modern players, and that is to skim off the best of the rejects and let them in. If they go this way for a while there will eventually be a stigma attached to modern VC induction.

(edited by spf on 8.12.08 0742)


2007 W-League Fantasy Football champion!
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.63
Well, the VC has spoken, and Joe Gordon is the only inductee this year. Frankly, given his credentials (120 OPS+, former MVP, multiple-time All-Star, played in New York), I'm surprised it took him this long to make the Hall.

Guys like Gil Hodges are very marginal HOFers based on their playing careers, but when you factor in his managing skills, that's enough to get ol' Gil into Cooperstown.
TheOldMan
Landjager








Since: 13.2.03
From: Chicago

Since last post: 146 days
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#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.91
Bear in mind that Gordon was elected by a (separate) 12-person committee that was about half baseball historians. Once again the 64(?) living HoF-ers managed to keep their little fraternity intact.

In fairness, I think I read that of the 10 finalists, the living 'famers could vote for up to four, and averaged about 3.2 votes per man - they just spread the votes around so no one made the 75% standard. Still, after three tries to re-jigger the process to get another honoree, it stinks to me (your mileage may vary). Add to that the expected election of Bonds, Clemens, and probably after those two McGwire .. it only makes me less interested in making a third visit one day. Joe Morgan can curl up at second base on Legends Field and fap while holding his precious (plaque) for all I care.

(edited by TheOldMan on 9.12.08 0010)


spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
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#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by TheOldMan
    Bear in mind that Gordon was elected by a (separate) 12-person committee that was about half baseball historians. Once again the 64(?) living HoF-ers managed to keep their little fraternity intact.

    In fairness, I think I read that of the 10 finalists, the living 'famers could vote for up to four, and averaged about 3.2 votes per man - they just spread the votes around so no one made the 75% standard. Still, after three tries to re-jigger the process to get another honoree, it stinks to me (your mileage may vary). Add to that the expected election of Bonds, Clemens, and probably after those two McGwire .. it only makes me less interested in making a third visit one day. Joe Morgan can curl up at second base on Legends Field and fap while holding his precious (plaque) for all I care.

    (edited by TheOldMan on 9.12.08 0010)

How many of the rejects should they be forced to take? Should all 10 guys just be allowed in en masse?

Seriously it isn't like they're looking at Greg Maddux and not allowing him in. They've decided not to include anyone from a group of borderline candidates all of whom have been rejected by more voters than Alan Keyes. The VC should be correcting glaring errors. No one on that list is a glaring error, no matter how much the Chicago media tries to sell Ron Santo not being in as a national embarassment on the order of slavery or the genocide of the Native Americans.

Of course I'm sure the response now will be to make the VC give an up or down vote to every candidate. And if Ronnie doesn't get in with that change then the change will be to have each voter vote for a minimum of 10 candidates and present them with a list of 10 candidates for induction.

Seriously, shutter the VC, stop trying to cram in more candidates who have been voted down by every conceivable group this side of their immediate families.



2007 W-League Fantasy Football champion!
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Indeed they were. There were also guys in the crowd peeling off T-Shirts as he got each K to list out the number on their chests. The ones digit guy must have been pretty hot at the beginning of the night - he went through 8 shirts.
- Guru Zim, 4000 Ks for Big Unit... (2004)
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