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21.12.14 0010
The W - Pro Wrestling - HHH, Titles, and Pushes
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Trineo
Mettwurst








Since: 19.3.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 4457 days
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#1 Posted on
Ok, this has been sitting in my head all day now, so I figured I'd get it all out of my system in one big rant. I think this really came out while I was watching Raw on Monday and reading that "Wrestling is Fake" thread that turned into HHH bashing than anything else. It didn't really click until I was reading last week's issue of Figure Four Weekly when a couple things clicked for me, which I will talk about here. While everything will have reference to HHH (because I feel he is one of the problems right now with WWE) my thoughts on Titles and Pushes are in general and not meant to point out one person (maybe two or three).

I will start off by doing a little talking about everybody's favorite Wrestling God, HHH. I think people who have been on his badnwagon need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. HHH, in my opinion, is a hypocrite who has done more damage to the WWE than any other reason or person (I even include McMahon's lost touch with reality and his daughter's inability to understand what wrestling fans want). Looking back at HHH, since he has been pushed to the moon and back, I cannot remember one good match he was in where he was the reason for it. The Foley matches that put him on the map were because of Foley's desire to create a star before he left. His opponents in his best matches were Angle, Benoit, Jericho, and Rock. Is there a coincidence with those... I think not. When HHH has somebody to bump for him and make him look like a Superstar, then he is great. His bad matches are usually because his opponent cannot cover up that HHH is nothing more than a overly-bulked up guy with just over basic ability.

He talks about how he looked up to Flair when he was starting out, well you cannot tell by his tactics in the ring and behind the scenes. I cannot remember the last person that was better off after a feud with HHH than before. Flair, in his prime, created more big stars than I could probably remember. I'll simply say this to make my case... Sting was an average worker at best before Clash of the Champions 1, and after it (and Flair) Sting became one of the biggest stars of NWA and eventually WCW even though he didn't do much more after that. And I know some people will not like that comment, but when you think about if Flair wasn't in that ring with Sting, he was no better than his Blade Runner counter-part, Ultimate Warrior. So if somebody can name me a person that was turned into a Superstar because of HHH then I will gladly take back these two paragraphs.

No my little rant on HHH leads in my comments about Titles, and again some of you might not like what I have to say. Titles in the WWE right now have absolutely no meaning anymore. HHH was handed his belt (fake or not, in the eyes of the fans that is just like Hacksaw Jim Duggan finding the WCW TV Title in the trash and becoming the TV Cahmp); "The Next Big Thing" Brock Lesnar got his ass kicked by an old man and was made to look like a fool; the IC belt is about to go bye-bye; the Women's Title is for T&A purposes; and who exactly are the Tag and Cruiserweight Champs? WWE destroyed their Titles because they do not know how to properly protect the most important assett of the company. You can have the biggest names in the world, but as Paul Heyman showed with ECW, if the Titles have meaning, the matches involving those men will mean a lot more, and at times make good money if done right.

WWE had both the talent and the Titles, but because of various reason (two being the previous topic and the next topic) nobody cares about the Titles. Even in the 80's, while the WWF didn't have the talent they do now, the belts meant something, so fans wanted to see those matches. It didn't hurt that Hulk Hogan was the WWF Champ as well. Hogan had the ability (even if it didn't last beyond the man's run with Hogan) to make whoever he was going up against look like a real threat to the Title in the eyes of the average fan. Did Bubba Ray look like a threat to HHH? Did RVD look like a threat to HHH? In the end Hogan would get the clean pin over win over his opponent and move on. Did Taker let this happen with Lesnar? Those quick examples show that even with the Titles that are supposed to mean something, the right thing isn't being done. Even if HHH kept the Title, as long as it seemed like RVD stood a chance of winning it would have made him losing seem alright in a sense. The same goes for Taker. I wouldn't mind the double DQ finish if Taker made Lesnar look good in the process. But he didn't... in fact he made Lesnar look no better than how he made DDP look.

Now these first to things would not have been huge problems if it wasn't for the fact that the WWE has produced barely a handful of new stars in the past couple of years. Even Lesnar and Angle have been made to look like fools in the past and present, which might eventually hurt them in the long run. And even with guys that showed promise in OVW (Batista, Rico, Orton, and Cena) they have been turned into comic relief that might never be able to be fixed at this point. At least with Orton they are trying to fix that.

Of the three topics I talked about, this is the most important of the three, and for good reason. Think about it like this... in ten years when all the current stars are gone, they will need the guys they are burrying now to step up, and even if Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero, and Angle are still around, they will be 10 years older and it will be like Flair is now. There won't be a Mick Foley to make a star out of the boss' boyfriend, and there sure as hell isn't going to be another company to buy. They need to build the stars of tomorrow right now, and if McMahon keeps bending over backwards for guys like Taker and HHH, there will not be any new stars coming out of this rut WWE is in.



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Since: 27.6.02

Since last post: 3964 days
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#2 Posted on
I agree about the 80's comment... back then everyone seemed like a main eventer. Because of jobbers and such, and the true Survivor Series matches where midcard to main eventers fought somewhat equally, everyone looked like a contender. I remeber being a little kid, watching a guy like Hercules or Tito Santana winning all the time aganist jobbers and thinking they were huge stars, hell I remeber thinking Earthquake and Typhoon were incredible, all the main eventers of the 80s could have been a main eventer. The champs did help that too, Flair was Flair, and even though Hogan hulked up, he ALWAYS got his ass kicked before hand. True there were politics back then, but I look at an RVD (number one face on his show) vs HHH match and see less of a chance of RVD winning than I did for almost any Hogan vs Piper, Bundy, Studd, Muraco, etc. etc. match.



Midterms suck....
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mskj
Summer sausage








Since: 10.1.02
From: Tennessee

Since last post: 1027 days
Last activity: 786 days
#3 Posted on
    Originally posted by Trineo
    Looking back at HHH, since he has been pushed to the moon and back, I cannot remember one good match he was in where he was the reason for it. The Foley matches that put him on the map were because of Foley's desire to create a star before he left. His opponents in his best matches were Angle, Benoit, Jericho, and Rock. Is there a coincidence with those... I think not. When HHH has somebody to bump for him and make him look like a Superstar, then he is great. His bad matches are usually because his opponent cannot cover up that HHH is nothing more than a overly-bulked up guy with just over basic ability.




Rock's opponents in his best matches? Angle, Benoit, Jericho, Austin, Foley.

Austin's opponents in his best, recent matches? Angle, Benoit, Rock, HHH.

Jericho's opponents in his best matches? Benoit, HHH, Rock, Angle.

Angle's opponents in his best matches? Rock, Benoit, Jericho, Edge, Austin.

Benoit's opponents for his best matches? Angle, Rock, Jericho, HHH, Austin.

Coincidence? I think not. They all stink.

Good matches are the result of two good wrestlers.

Edit: I can't spell coincidence.

(edited by mskj on 2.10.02 1737)


Forget Rock. Maurice Clarett is my hero.
Freeway
Scrapple








Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

Since last post: 363 days
Last activity: 51 days
#4 Posted on
Opinions have been sanitized for your sanity...
HHH is a fairly good worker. Somewhat.

Look at my favorite HHH match, HHH vs. Benoit from No Mercy 2000. Y'see, Benoit's strength was technical soundness, while HHH was a good brawler. So, they IRONICALLY switched roles, having face HHH work over Benoit's legs, then CHEAT TO WIN, foreshadowing his later heel turn {'I hit Austin!') and such. Meanwhile, Benoit was Benoit, churning out good matches and making himself and HHH look like gold.

Remember all the good HHH/Rock matches?

The fact is that to have a truly great match, you need two things: A good face and a good heel. Working ability is a plus, but is unneeded. Need proof? WrestleMania 3. 'Nuff said.

At the end Foley was a helluva comedic and sympathetic face, which made his matches against evil HHH more compelling, and therefore more entertaining.

God, if the WWF writers actually thought ahead, they'd be set!



Flames: 0-0-0-0 [0-4 in pre-season]
Stampeders: 4-9-0-2 [2nd last place in CFL; bye week]
WhoBettahThanDeion
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02

Since last post: 4443 days
Last activity: 4279 days
#5 Posted on
Hey Yo...

WHAT Triple H bandwagon? You guys are wearing Triple H Hatewr sunglasses period. He's doing the same things you all put him over for before, and now since you hate him, it's totally different and he's holding people down.

Rock's opponents in his best matches? Angle, Benoit, Jericho, Austin, Foley, Triple H (Iron Man, Ladder Matches).

Austin's opponents in his best, recent matches? Angle, Benoit, Rock, HHH (Three Stage of Hell, PERIOD, best match of Austin's career).

Jericho's opponents in his best matches? Benoit, HHH, Rock, Angle.

Angle's opponents in his best matches? Rock, Benoit, Jericho, Edge, Austin.

Benoit's opponents for his best matches? Angle, Rock, Jericho, Austin.

Foley's Best Opponents: Rock, Triple H, Undertaker, Michaels.

HHH's Best Opponents: Vince, Austin, Michaels, Rock.

I'm not really all that worried, it's just fashionable to hate Triple H on the internet. It's all good, the guy's doing good work CURRENTLY (since his heel turn he's been GOOD, period). As for the "he's holding people down" arguemtn, it's bs, you don't know that he does, doesn't or whatever. As for HHH "cheating to win" it's been his character for the last four or five years, who cares!? It's WRESTLING! God, if the net was around during Flair's heyday I wonder what THEY would have said?

Lesnar being made to look like a fool? I thought he looked like a rookie (he is) against a seasoned veteran and couldn't outfight the Undertaker, so tried to WRESTLE him and Undertaker STILL got the upperhand (you know, becauase he's a VETERAN?). That was the story that match told me. Bias, bias, bias...




What's the thin line one crosses from being a fan to being a loser? Answer THAT one...

"Pootie Tang? More like Dootie Tang!" -Chris Rock

One word: BUCKEYES! With that being said, BLAM! In your face!
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1488 days
Last activity: 396 days
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

    Originally posted by WhoBettahThanDeion

    I'm not really all that worried, it's just fashionable to hate Triple H on the internet. It's all good, the guy's doing good work CURRENTLY (since his heel turn he's been GOOD, period). As for the "he's holding people down" arguemtn, it's bs, you don't know that he does, doesn't or whatever. As for HHH "cheating to win" it's been his character for the last four or five years, who cares!? It's WRESTLING! God, if the net was around during Flair's heyday I wonder what THEY would have said?

    Lesnar being made to look like a fool? I thought he looked like a rookie (he is) against a seasoned veteran and couldn't outfight the Undertaker, so tried to WRESTLE him and Undertaker STILL got the upperhand (you know, becauase he's a VETERAN?). That was the story that match told me. Bias, bias, bias...



Dude, watch the end of every fucking RAW. Who's in the last shot, every time?? Or if you don't buy that, just listen to who monopolizes the announcers' time. Who does JR and every other guy put over as being the "best in the business"? I agree that his heel turn has been infinitely more entertaining than his abortion of a face run, but that's because HHH wasn't talented enough to get over as a good guy. Who is the centerpiece of every RAW, with a rotating cast of opponents like RVD, Jericho, Bubba, Spike, etc? That shower scene last week was appropriate because the emperor has no fucking clothes on. And the shills can't see it.

Christ, it goes double for Taker. Why would you want to make a monster look like a dumb rookie, so early into his championship run? Because someone doesn't want to lose his spot, that's why. Taker's not a good brawler, he's a tall old man that slaps his opponents with padded gloves. I'm sure even the marks don't believe that he could take Lesnar, in a streetfight OR a wrestling match.


WWE has the best talent roster in the world. We should be treated to weekly doses of well-worked matches with fresh new characters, ones that we give a shit about. It's not rocket science, it's wrestling. Instead, the two boring veterans, the ones we've seen in the main event rotation for YEARS, dominate both shows. Yes, Smackdown is getting good, but was Taker in any of those fantastic matches last week?

When Confidential ran that episode about the final straw that broke WCW's back, someone made the comment here that they'd never get into the REAL reason, because history is repeating itself in WWE. Too right.




"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex

"Was he no-selling?" - Me
WhoBettahThanDeion
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02

Since last post: 4443 days
Last activity: 4279 days
#7 Posted on
Hey Yo...

I'm not going to change your opinion on this matter, but you're biased against Undertaker, PERIOD. He's the main face on that show and there's no one but Rey EVEN close (and don't say Benoit because that guy doesn't elicit pops or boos). BUT, in Undertaker's defense, when Rock, Austin, Jericho and anyone who's a main eventer on their show is in the last segment/shot. PERIOD. If you don't see that, then that's your problem. Also, if the announcers don't put the guys over as THE MAN, doesn't that defeat the purpose?

Also, Bubba's overrated (he's good at midcard, but I don't buy his main event push), what has Jericho done on the main event scene lately anyways? Take your smark glasses off and see what's good for what's good, not because you overanalyze things and think you have an idea of what goes on in the locker room.

Seeing Brock destroy people isn't good television. And the matches aren't interesting. Brock's a rookie, Undertaker's a veteran, there's a story that makes sense. Brock destroying people=you crying about him beating up your favorite wrestler. I can see it now:

"Why did Brock have to kill Benoit!?"

"Brock destroyed Angle, WHYYYYYYY!?"

"Why Lesnar's boring..."

And don't say it wouldn't happen, because a lot of what I read on here is general bitching. Wrestling is a television show, I invest about four to six hours watching and about two to three hours talking about. I don't need to overanalyze everything that happens, just sit back and enjoy the ride. If you don't like Undertaker and he's the main guy then don't watch the shows. Period. Or, don't watch his matches. Don't complain to me that you "torture" yourself by wathcing wrestling when you could easily turn the channel. I know had to when I was in shows for the last four years of my life. If you're not being entertained, here's a bit of advice, TURN THE CHANNEL! Me, I just try and come in here less (I MUCH prefer the random topic). I look for certain things and try not to complain, but it's hard not to when you agree vehemently with someone. Anyone who thinks this is the old WCW should turn the channel. Me, I'll continue watching because, dammit, I'm entertained.

Also, asteroidboy, is you're going to fight me, I'd prefer you just sent ME a private mail, I'm done fighting with you, we just don't agree on some points. Of course, if you want to talk further on this topic, I'm not asking you to not post, I'm just asking we take this private if you just want to berate me.



What's the thin line one crosses from being a fan to being a loser? Answer THAT one...

"Pootie Tang? More like Dootie Tang!" -Chris Rock

One word: BUCKEYES! With that being said, BLAM! In your face!
Dr Unlikely
Landjager








Since: 2.1.02

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#8 Posted on
The problem with the Undertaker on SmackDown is that they created a self-fulfilling cycle with him over there. When he came in, the decision was made to have him go over Angle and Benoit pretty soundly and definitively because, the idea went, they needed to make him look invincible heading into Unforgiven so it would be more impressive when Brock beat him. I guess you can argue whether that was necessary, since he's been accepted as being nearly invincible for over a decade already, but that's the way they went.

And now, with Undertaker not having lost and actually having gotten the best of Brock, we're still left with all those guys on the roster below the two of them looking like less than credible opponents. So they're locked into this cycle of not setting anyone else up so there's no way to have a match besides Brock vs. UT. That's the booking problem they need to address - there are no new opponents because there are no new opponents who look worthy because they won't use new opponents.

On the other side, Jericho hasn't done anything in the main event scene lately because he's spent the last two months being the set-up for the HHH match. Going into No Mercy, the IC belt was put on him so it would look like RVD might win against HHH. And now going towards No Mercy, the belt has been taken off Jericho so it might look like Kane can win against HHH. It's a similar situation to SmackDown where the guys who might be able to provide entertaining top of the card scenes are, for whatever reason, shuffled around in ways that tend to leave them in positions where they can't get there. Jericho and RVD are in similar situations to Angle and Benoit, while Edge is like Booker - probably the top face in how the crowd responds but not near the big title scene.

Of course, the argument can be made that we don't know who's making these decisions. That's fine. But what I do from what I've seen, and what I don't like about HHH based on what's been on the show for the past few years, is how everything is inevitably focused on showing how he's the greatest in the history of all ever, getting the benefits of both the all-conquering heel and triumphant face at the same time.

In 2000, HHH matched up against Benoit and became the guy to figure out how to get out of the Crossface and beat Benoit there. Later, he reformed DX to beat all of the Radicals, then got rid of DX. After all that, Benoit came out and gave an interview essentially saying that they finally realized that HHH was the best and as a result, they became his henchmen.

In 2001, HHH revealed that he had brilliantly masterminded an evil plan to kill Steve Austin dead, leading to Austin recovering from the attempted murder to seek justice on HHH, eventually dropping him 50 feet in a car, which HHH walked away from. But that was just the set-up for the ultimate payoff match where Austin would get his revenge in Three Stages of Hell leading to Austin capping off his triumphant return back to Wrestlemania for the biggest match ever against The Rock. Instead, Austin loses the payoff match against HHH and is so shaken by it that he loses all his confidence, goes insane, seeks out his greatest enemy for help and then becomes HHH's henchman anyway.

In 2002, The Immortal Hulk Hogan is driven by the Hulkamaniacs, after his battle with The Rock, to return to the side of truth, justice, prayers and vitamins and convinced by the fans that he might have it in him to make one last run at the title against The Game. Hogan wins when the Undertaker interferes (no complaints, winning clean there would have been dumb, even if Rock did go down clean to the Legdrop earlier in the year) but then gives speech where he says he thinks he wouldn't have been able to beat HHH if the Undertaker hadn't shown up, leading to a later HHH/Hogan rematch where HHH dominates him and defeats him, capped by a bested Hogan asking HHH to pose victoriously in the ring with him. That's not a bad year right there, but Rock got to do that, too.

So, also in 2002, Brock Lesnar takes off to SmackDown, robbing HHH of a shot at the belt (that HHH helped him win by softening up The Rock for him), so the wronged HHH has a new title created for him, which he then defends by taking on an angry Natureboy Ric Flair. HHH beats Flair (and he should have), then takes the time to tell Flair on TV to his face that Flair is washed up, pathetic and has lost it, and Flair apparently agrees that HHH is superior by giving the speech where he says the HHH is the best in the business and the greatest there is and decides to become HHH's henchman, while HHH becomes a Sexual Tyranosaurus.

I'm holding out hope that Flair's breaking the streak by being the guy to just be setting HHH up (as long as that doesn't mean HHH becoming a face again or just doing it to help HBK in another match, because that doesn't help anybody). But still, it's that unending pattern of the last three years where, as both heel and face, he dominates everyone and they turn around and praise him for it that, I think, has had the cumulative effect of getting a lot of people where they are today in terms of being tired of seeing him coming out on top and being the focus of everything. He has been a bit more interesting in the past two weeks by refining his character into a pseudo-Flair (Flair needs to teach him how to dress, though), but I there's a lot that needs to be undone to win people back into caring. At least that's how I see it.
Santa Sangre
Bockwurst








Since: 21.6.02
From: Germany

Since last post: 529 days
Last activity: 417 days
#9 Posted on
The thing about this is if Rock hadn't started making movies and Austin hadn't gone crazy we'd never have this problem in the first place. I don't think it's as much HHH being in someone's ear as it is Trips being designated the next Austin/Rock. Imagine you're HHH. You're being booked as the man. Why argue with that. Do you think he's saying, "Well Vince, I'd really like to be heavyweight champ, but it's probably not good for the business." Hell no he's not saying that. You don't argue with your boss when you don't like their ideas, and you sure as hell don't agrue when it's good for you.





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WhoBettahThanDeion
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02

Since last post: 4443 days
Last activity: 4279 days
#10 Posted on
Hey Yo...

Since when is NOT winning the title and winning by DQ going over cleanly? I'm waiting until the fued ends. If he doesn't job next pay per view, you're free to bitch, but the fued's still going on. That match told a cohesive story, I didn't like the ending, but if it leads to bigger and better things and is a part of an actual plan (something the WWE seems capable of right now) then I'm ALL FOR IT.

Yes, Sangre, this does suck, but to be honest, with those two gone we get to see others step up.



What's the thin line one crosses from being a fan to being a loser? Answer THAT one...

"Pootie Tang? More like Dootie Tang!" -Chris Rock

One word: BUCKEYES! With that being said, BLAM! In your face!
Ringmistress
Lap cheong








Since: 15.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2733 days
Last activity: 2733 days
#11 Posted on
I'll agree with Dr Unlikely on this one. Usually, I'll defend the guy to the hilt, but I've been so impressed with Smackdown the last couple of weeks, well I haven't given him too much thought lately. I'm just waiting for the day that JR starts calling him a bastard again.

Ringmistress



Ringmistress - A bitch among heels.
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1488 days
Last activity: 396 days
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95
Smackdown is a fantastic example, especially last week's, of what they are capable of. And I think they're doing a good job of giving good exposure to upper midcarders, like Eddie and Edge, who need that little push to land in the main event. Aside from UT/Brock, there's a lot of parity among the rest of the guys, which adds a lot of excitement to their matches. A great example is the Mysterio/Angle/Benoit triple threat with Mysterio getting the pin out of nowhere. What a nice surprise to end the show with, and I don't think it hurt Benoit a bit.



"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex

"Was he no-selling?" - Me
Fantomas
Polska kielbasa








Since: 23.2.02
From: New York

Since last post: 4452 days
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#13 Posted on
Isn't the point of having a heel to get people to hate him, so they'll pay money to see him finally get his come-uppance? Why is HHH exempt? Where's the money in the heel always coming out on top? When does he get what's coming to him, and is it too late to even bother? Even as a heel he gets cheered by the women and the marks, and that's it.

CxMorgado
Boudin rouge








Since: 21.1.02
From: Boston MA is the rippen'ist town...

Since last post: 362 days
Last activity: 7 hours
#14 Posted on

    Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
    In 2000, HHH matched up against Benoit and became the guy to figure out how to get out of the Crossface and beat Benoit there. Later, he reformed DX to beat all of the Radicals, then got rid of DX. After all that, Benoit came out and gave an interview essentially saying that they finally realized that HHH was the best and as a result, they became his henchmen.




I'm not going to argue against your point or anything Doc, but this one tidbit seems just too wrong for me to let slide...

The Radicals debuted by showing up in the crowd and brawling with DX, so how could HHH have reformed DX to beat all the Radicals if they were already reformed?

And how could HHH have matched up with Benoit before reforming DX when Benoit wasn't in the WWF yet?

And let's not forget Eddy's injury destroying whatever the plans were for the initial angle anyways...



Back to back!
Dr Unlikely
Landjager








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 14 hours
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#15 Posted on
I think you're confusing when those events took place (or, equally possible, I'm misunderstanding you here - if that's the case, you can probably ignore all this). I'll see if I can explain where I was coming from thanks to the archives:

The Radicals debuted on the January 31, 2000 episode of Raw. This is where they brawled with DX after Foley brought them in. After that, they sided with HHH and turned on Foley and all that stuff happened.

Months later, Benoit and HHH were now feuding over who was the better wrestler and HHH had already broken up with DX (I can't remember the exact details of how that happened, but he was definitely no longer involved with them). By October 2000, HHH was feuding with Benoit and defeated him at No Mercy (October 22nd), with the angle leading to it being Stephanie suggesting HHH watch tapes of Benoit, which enables HHH to discover the secret of the Crossface, which he is now able to counter thanks to his superior ring knowledge en route to beating Benoit.

It doesn't end there, because we go ahead to the November 6, 2000 episode of Raw, where HHH has seemingly turned a new leaf and changed his ways to beat those dastardly Radicals by making amends with Road Dogg, Chyna and Billy Gunn, convincing them that he's sorry for his actions of the past year and getting them to team up for an eight man tag match that night. CRZ's account:
Chyna and Billy Gunn are joking around when Triple H and Road Dogg hit the locker room. Triple H talks a lot about making mistakes - maybe they made mistakes too. But they have something bigger in front of them - the Radicals. They want a piece of them, so do they. They don't have to be friends. Maybe it's only for one night, maybe it's long beyond the point any of us are interested in them, but whaddaya say? Are you in? Is D-Generation X back together? Everybody shakes hands. I'm gonna go barf.

That match ends with HHH's side victorious after he Pedigrees Malenko for the win.

The very same night, HHH reveals that it was all a ruse, as he comes out during the Austin handicap tag match seemingly as Austin's partner, but instead puts on the evil black glove, throws Angle out of the ring and gives the "NOW YOU KNOOOOW-UH!" interview while beating Austin up and revealing that he set Austin up to die.

The following Raw, November 13, 2000 one week after DX reformed to beat the Radicals, the Radicals come to the ring for an interview where they pledge their undying loyalty to HHH. Benoit, by way of CRZ:
There was a time...when I didn't get along with the man they call The Game, Triple H. But after being in the ring with him - after watching what kind of a man he truly is - a man that'll do just aboot anything (hehe) and everything to get ahead - that man, Triple H, is a man that I can now respect. Hell, I always knew that it took a lot more than being the Best Damn Technical Wrestler in the WWF to get where I wanna be - hell, we all knew! So we reformed the Radicalz! And we've come up with one hell of a game plan - and what better of a plan that to team up with the Game. Roll footage! Triple H has come to us in the past for help - and we were there. So when he came to us this time, we didn't think twice aboot it! 'cause when it comes to playing the WWF's game, Triple H is That Damn Good.

So the stuff with Benoit and the others debuting happened at the beginning of 2000 (with Eddie breaking his arm), but this business happened at the end of the year, with HHH beating Benoit, reforming DX after having left them to beat the Radicals, and then having the Radicals realize that they'd met their match in The Game and joining him in the span of two weeks, with time left for HHH to put into motion the Austin feud where he revealed himself as the man behind the attempt on Austin's life and go on in 2001 to beat Austin in the payoff match to that Angle, causing Austin's spirit to break and leading Austin, too, to ally himself with The Game.
A Fan
Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 3616 days
Last activity: 3616 days
#16 Posted on
You know, that is freaky that once HHH beats a guy he joins them. Its like he's a cult leader or something. Of course, it could be the lousey writing and the fact that HHH has to be in every single important event in the last five years.

Anyway, I do think the HHH is the uber-heel with the original uber-heel, Flair, makes for some interesting television. I do agree having a major heel and seeing him get his is what the fans really want. The revolving door of competitors like Bubba, RVD and Kane is not going to help the storyline. I see Booker T as the savior of this story by the time, Survivor Series comes out, but I see HHH winning anyway, because HHH has to beat his enemy in their first PPV meeting ie Foley, Rock, Austin, Jericho, Benoit and Angle. Wow, Hogan and Taker this year are the only guys he's jobbed the first time facing in awhile.

However, the WWE has never gone full blown with this for a long time. Austin/McMahon never really had a good ending, it just kept going on and on and on. The McMahon-Helmsley era should have died at Wrestlemania, but was drown out to the Commisioner Foley storyline, but HHH was still the key player through out most of that story arc. Even Vince resting control of the company from Mick didn't have a great conclusion, he did have his head kicked in by Shane at Wrestlemania X-7, but came out later in the night to help Austin beat Rock. Invasion as sad as it may sound at least had the right ending. Granted, the storyline sucked for a majority of it, but it had the WWF beating the Alliance which was logically and statisfying.

The alone good ending for this is HHH and Flair come out before Survivor Series and say there is no one who can beat him, Booker T comes out and plays their only meeting so far, where he pins HHH. He challenges HHH at Survivor Series, but Eric comes out ruins it by saying its Raw vs. Smackdown at Survivor Series and HHH is the leader of Raw. So, this leads to more people ego stroking HHH as he pins Brock at the Series. And the never-ending cycle of HHH continues, because they'll turn him face in that match.

A Fan- When will the maddness stop?!
CxMorgado
Boudin rouge








Since: 21.1.02
From: Boston MA is the rippen'ist town...

Since last post: 362 days
Last activity: 7 hours
#17 Posted on

    Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
    I think you're confusing when those events took place (or, equally possible, I'm misunderstanding you here - if that's the case, you can probably ignore all this). I'll see if I can explain where I was coming from thanks to the archives:

    The Radicals debuted on the January 31, 2000 episode of Raw. This is where they brawled with DX after Foley brought them in. After that, they sided with HHH and turned on Foley and all that stuff happened.

    Months later, Benoit and HHH were now feuding over who was the better wrestler and HHH had already broken up with DX (I can't remember the exact details of how that happened, but he was definitely no longer involved with them). By October 2000, HHH was feuding with Benoit and defeated him at No Mercy (October 22nd), with the angle leading to it being Stephanie suggesting HHH watch tapes of Benoit, which enables HHH to discover the secret of the Crossface, which he is now able to counter thanks to his superior ring knowledge en route to beating Benoit.

    It doesn't end there, because we go ahead to the November 6, 2000 episode of Raw, where HHH has seemingly turned a new leaf and changed his ways to beat those dastardly Radicals by making amends with Road Dogg, Chyna and Billy Gunn, convincing them that he's sorry for his actions of the past year and getting them to team up for an eight man tag match that night. CRZ's account:
    Chyna and Billy Gunn are joking around when Triple H and Road Dogg hit the locker room. Triple H talks a lot about making mistakes - maybe they made mistakes too. But they have something bigger in front of them - the Radicals. They want a piece of them, so do they. They don't have to be friends. Maybe it's only for one night, maybe it's long beyond the point any of us are interested in them, but whaddaya say? Are you in? Is D-Generation X back together? Everybody shakes hands. I'm gonna go barf.

    That match ends with HHH's side victorious after he Pedigrees Malenko for the win.

    The very same night, HHH reveals that it was all a ruse, as he comes out during the Austin handicap tag match seemingly as Austin's partner, but instead puts on the evil black glove, throws Angle out of the ring and gives the "NOW YOU KNOOOOW-UH!" interview while beating Austin up and revealing that he set Austin up to die.

    The following Raw, November 13, 2000 one week after DX reformed to beat the Radicals, the Radicals come to the ring for an interview where they pledge their undying loyalty to HHH. Benoit, by way of CRZ:
    There was a time...when I didn't get along with the man they call The Game, Triple H. But after being in the ring with him - after watching what kind of a man he truly is - a man that'll do just aboot anything (hehe) and everything to get ahead - that man, Triple H, is a man that I can now respect. Hell, I always knew that it took a lot more than being the Best Damn Technical Wrestler in the WWF to get where I wanna be - hell, we all knew! So we reformed the Radicalz! And we've come up with one hell of a game plan - and what better of a plan that to team up with the Game. Roll footage! Triple H has come to us in the past for help - and we were there. So when he came to us this time, we didn't think twice aboot it! 'cause when it comes to playing the WWF's game, Triple H is That Damn Good.

    So the stuff with Benoit and the others debuting happened at the beginning of 2000 (with Eddie breaking his arm), but this business happened at the end of the year, with HHH beating Benoit, reforming DX after having left them to beat the Radicals, and then having the Radicals realize that they'd met their match in The Game and joining him in the span of two weeks, with time left for HHH to put into motion the Austin feud where he revealed himself as the man behind the attempt on Austin's life and go on in 2001 to beat Austin in the payoff match to that Angle, causing Austin's spirit to break and leading Austin, too, to ally himself with The Game.



Ahhhhh it is all clear to me now. I thought you were referring to the original events surrounding the debut of the Radicals and not the events that occured later on in the year.

Being as that is the case, I have no argument with your argument.




Back to back!
skorpio17
Morcilla








Since: 11.7.02
From: New Jersey

Since last post: 2468 days
Last activity: 2468 days
#18 Posted on
I'm in agreement with the Doctor, but I'd like to correct that after Wrestlemania 17, Triple H became Austin's lackey in the Two Man Power Trip, not the other way around.

Logically, this was even more stupid because it assumed that Triple H would be satisfied with the IC Belt instead of wanting Austin's main belt. Why should Triple H be satisfied with a secondary title?

<---------Never mind.
UnsUwe
Chourico








Since: 6.7.02
From: Germany

Since last post: 623 days
Last activity: 266 days
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#19 Posted on

    Originally posted by skorpio17
    I'm in agreement with the Doctor, but I'd like to correct that after Wrestlemania 17, Triple H became Austin's lackey in the Two Man Power Trip, not the other way around.

    Logically, this was even more stupid because it assumed that Triple H would be satisfied with the IC Belt instead of wanting Austin's main belt. Why should Triple H be satisfied with a secondary title?




Damned, I thought nobody is going to mention that! I have no idea why HHH agreed to play second fiddle behind Austin, but he definitely did. Not to speak of the fact that this was the most stupid and illogic angle of all time! There was no payoff whatsoever for HHH, although nobody knows what would've happened if he didn't get injured!



All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy
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Gotta love the dual identity thing with Simon Dean and Nova. And thus far, anyway, WWE's acting like nothing's out of the ordinary, aside from a remark by one of the announcers at ECW One Night Stand. I thought SmackDown! was quite good this week.
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