Originally posted by fuelinjectedName some people that are better off now then they were eight months ago on RAW.
Randy Orton, Batista, Goldust, Booker T, Sean Morely, Test, Lance Storm, Chris Jericho, Christian, Rob Van Dam and Kane (as a tag), Trish, Victoria.
The writing on RAW was alot more suspect right after the split than it is now, but it was a better show overall (in my opinion anyway) than Smackdown.
Though, I agree that Brock is better off on Smackdown than he was on RAW, however he was HARDLY bumping around for the Hardyz. He killed both of them in one match. He beat both of them by KO.
Benoit, of course, is directionless on Smackdown other than the fact that he can't beat Kurt Angle. What's his character again?
The problem with Smackdown under Heyman was that alot of people were "just fighting". That's great...for a while. But they NEED to be fighting about something. Look at the "Smackdown 6". You had endless runs of some variation of Angle/Benoit/Edge/Rey/Eddie/Chavo, which made for some fine matches. Awesome matches, but for the most part, entirely pointless. Every once and a while they'd throw in a contender spot or tag titles, but for the most part it was just "who can have a good match".
It's only in the last few months that they've really built up any good angles and characters (Brock/Heyman and Matt Hardy V1, for example), but RAW has had just as many (Michaels/Jericho and Booker T, for example).
So Heyman has had the benifit of the better matches, which is why we've given him the benifit of the doubt. But the WWE had a shorter leash than we did. I really don't think that the writing was any better.
Satire 2/24 (I promise to learn the new coding by next week) Buffy 7.15 gets a 8 The Kennedy tweener turn happened out of nowhere, but whatever. Mostly good stuff though.
Booker T is finally getting a push but it'll be tough after pretty much jobbing for the past two years straight.
Sean Morley is on TV, he's not really that over and is just Bischoff's coffee boy at this point.
Test? Test isn't over in the slightest.
Lance Storm. Is that a pin dropping?
Chris Jericho. Perhaps he's finally getting something but was on a huge jobbing run for awhile there.
RVD is probably the most over guy on RAW and he's been doing nothing. His career has advanced squat in the past 8 months. Except now, he's done his 3 or 4 jobs to HHH.
Trish & Victoria. RAW has done the Women's Division right.
Can't wrestlers just be wrestling because they don't like each other? Because they want to see who's the better wrestler? The Angle/Benoit stuff was tremendous with them as partners. Los Guerreros stuck their nose in everywhere, stirring up shit on a weekly basis. They were fighting because they don't like each other.
I don't really see the justification for removing Heyman anywhere while leaving the RAW team intact.
Originally posted by fuelinjectedI don't really see the justification for removing Heyman anywhere while leaving the RAW team intact.
Nor do I, but I didn't really see anything that should make Heyman as valued a member of the writing staff as he was either.
Now for some justifications!!(!)
Orton: Had that hugely fun RNN gimmick, which was probably written by someone other than him, going strong now.
Batista: He's certainly better off now than when he was carrying around the "D-Von Building Fund" (you said "Better off", Benjamin isn't exactly a heat magnate either. Don't believe me? Ask the house show crowds in Minnesota)
Goldust: Yeah, he has Tourettes NOW, but over the last few months, he's been in some hugely entertaining skits and is more over as a character NOW than he ever was when he was being pushed by Russo. You can't tell me he isn't better off than he was 8 months ago.
Sean Morley: Yes. He's on TV. That's just it. The RAW writing staff found something for the guy to do. He was hurt and they STILL found something for the guy to do that contributed to the product.
Test: Actually, thanks to his association with Stacy, he IS over. Now you can say that it's Stacy that he's over (and you'd be pretty much right on), but the fact of the matter is, he's in a better more solid position now than he was when he was floundering around in the mid-card after the Invasion ended.
Lance Storm: Was he really any better off when he was in the "UnAmericans" on Smackdown? He's not exactly the master of charisma or heat, but he's in a solid and very stable tag team, in which he can showcase what talent he does have (as the "technical" member of his team, which he has done very well)
I don't have a problem with wrestlers wrestling eachother for 'hates sake', necessarily. But then again, I think that ANYBODY could write a script like that. You wrestle him. Neat, huh? And there was alot of stuff like that on RAW too. Unfortunately for the RAW writing staff, the majority of good sound wrestlers are on Smackdown. So I suppose if you want to thank Paul Heyman for making Chris Benoit throw a really good suplex, fine. I'm more apt to say that he could have done so much more to make those feuds better and he either didn't or he couldn't, and either way, he shouldn't be given credit for that.
If he was so brilliant, and Smackdown were so much better, it would, like I said, be pulling significantly higher ratings than RAW, which it just is not. And as much as I blame the RAW staff for the Necrophilia angle, I blame the Smackdown people for months and months of Dawn/Torrie/Al (which ended in Necrophilia ). And by the same token as much as I credit Paul E. for making good solid angles with Brock/Angle/Himself and even Undertaker/Big Show, I credit the RAW guys for Booker's rise to popularity and Chris Jericho's recent tear against Jeff Hardy, Test and Shawn Michaels.
Satire 2/24 (I promise to learn the new coding by next week) Buffy 7.15 gets a 8 The Kennedy tweener turn happened out of nowhere, but whatever. Mostly good stuff though.
Originally posted by fuelinjectedI disagree, "the system" is flawed big-time.
Credit Wade and Torch:
"Heyman, though, did create headaches for production with his lack of timeliness, honoring of deadlines, organizational skills."
That pretty much gets you a demotion or fired in any job. I think Vince just wanted to send a message that he needs to get his act together. No matter how valuable he may be as a booker, he needs to learn some basic office skills like returning people's phone calls.
I gotta step in now that Excaliber has gone over the edge of sanity.
Better Off Now than 8 Months Ago on Raw:
Randy Orton slightly better, Batista better, Goldust worse off with retarded gimmick, Booker T better off, but still not as over as he was one year and 8 months ago. Sean Morely worse off, Test worse off, back then he was in the final four of the KotR tournament barely losing to Brock Lesnar. Now he is in the doghouse for getting stuck in a blizzard. Lance Storm, - same - back then was tagging with Christian as tag champs Chris Jericho better off now that hes not jobbing to John Cena and Flair, Christian worse off now as Jerichos lacky Rob Van Dam much worse off now starring in Heat matches, as opposed to making KotR finals and going toe-to-toe with Brock and main eventing PPVs. Kane same Trish same Victoria wasnt even on TV 8 months ago.
Final Scorecard of People Excaliber claims are better off:
Yeah, man, that Big Valbowski/Hardcore Holly tag team was just TEARING UP SMACKDOWN! eight months ago.
It's interesting that so many of these names weren't even on RAW eight months ago. And by "interesting," I mean "totally reminds us what a stupid idea this split has been given the way they haven't bothered to keep up ANY pretense of credibility blah blah fnar"
Originally posted by CRZ It's interesting that so many of these names weren't even on RAW eight months ago. And by "interesting," I mean "totally reminds us what a stupid idea this split has been given the way they haven't bothered to keep up ANY pretense of credibility blah blah fnar"
I'd have to say that one of the nicest parts of the split is Orton, Rico, Batista, Bookerdust, Lance storm and Victoria. I am all for having young and good talent on the shows and Orton, Rico, Batista and Victoria are that. I am all for giving good mid carders something to do, and that has been done in the case of Lance storm, at least. It's too bad the same can't be said for Christian and Hurricane. The thing I don't like about the split can be eexpressed in three words: Three Minute Warning. Give me Rico without those turds and you'd have a star, I SWEAR!
and God help me, I LIKE Scott Steiner. But they sure made the boy look bad last night didn't they? Yikes.
Originally posted by AWArulzI'd have to say that one of the nicest parts of the split is Orton, Rico, Batista, Bookerdust, Lance storm and Victoria. I am all for having young and good talent on the shows and Orton, Rico, Batista and Victoria are that.
i'm not sure how young rico is. i think he's pushing 40. that to me is not "young talent." maybe good, but not young. :)
I dont know I think the Raw writers have been doing a better job lately, and most of the people that are listed actually are better off, or can be very easily.
Randy Orton better, no one cared when he debuted on Raw, but the RNN updates were very popular and he is much better off now Batista though he may not get crowd reaction, I attribute that more to the fact he really hasn't been in a fued with a popular face. I think if you give him Goldust or RVD (if he still a face), then he may get some heel heat. Still, its a lot better then D-von's lackey Goldust I think its unfair to say he's worse off with the retarded gimmick. One, he has odne that for all of one week now, and two they may not even continue that when he gets back I can see them dropping it and having it just be a temporary effect after the electrocution. Booker T better off, in most arenas he gets the biggest pop, or second behind RVD Sean Morely How can you say hes worse off. Hes is now on TV, fans hate him because of his constant screwing with the dudleys, I think you all are being a little too hard on him. Test He is worse off, though the testicles thing was pretty big, but I think people are losing interest, here is where a midcard belt would have come in handy. A title chase would have given him something to shoot for and make the fans care. Lance Storm-Lance is about the same, he has his fans, but without promo time like he was given in WCW, he cant get more heat. I also think they need to let his team win more, nothing develops more heel heat, then a heel beating a face cleanly. Chris Jericho better off now that hes not jobbing, and he is a top heel now Christian better off, the Un-American thing could have been a career killer, but he is very entertaining with Jericho, and I can see him having a big 2003 Rob Van Dam same, its not fair to say worse off because of heat matches, again that was just this week, however, he has been on the cusp of the world title and hasnt gotten it, perhaps a heel RVD can fued with a face Booker champ if they dont go the Booker Jericho route Kane same, was big withthe freak thing, but the necro stuff may have ruined his heat Trish much better, people hated her as champ not to long ago, now she is one of the most respected women wrestlers they have Victoria wasnt even on TV 8 months ago, now shes the champ and her and stevie (who hasnt been mentioned yet) are doing a tremendous job Bischoff-dont forget about him, WCW faithful couldnt help but cheer, so he got a lot of mixed reaction, now they have developed him as someone that could be more hated then McMahon (my reasoning McMahon only fueded with Austin, Bischoff is taking on everyone) With these reasons I think the writers have done an admirable job, and they are reducing HHH's time so you really cant complain about him.
Thank you Lord....for giving me the strength....to beat the crap out of that man and damn near kill him with my bare hands! -David Alan Grier discussing post boxing match interviews
Regarding Heymans 'demotion', I was never of the opinion that he was responsible for all that was good on SD while Stephanie was the root of all things bad and evil.
IMO the writing on Smackdown has been pretty average overall of late. The Lesnar/Heyman feud has been built pretty well but other than that many angles have been memorable for the matches rather than the stories underpinning them.
As for who's better off on Raw now than they were 8 months ago. Orton, Test, and Goldust(give the new gimmick a chance)without question.
Booker T was jobber extrordanaire not so long ago. Since then hes been part of the most over tag team on either show and is now on his way to WM and getting huge pops. Safe to say his careers on the up.
Lance Storm, didnt care then and dont care now. No better or worse off. See also Christian
RVD is probably about the same. Had a shot at the title and was screwed out of it by Flair. Getting over pretty well with Kane.
Kane. To have this guy get any sort of reaction post Katie Vick is something of an acheivement. Overall though pretty much where he was.
Trish. probably a bit better off. Certainaly getting good pops of late.
And finally Jericho. Now in position to become a top heel in the aftermath of WM.
Thats a fair few people who the RAW writers have managed to help in a relatively short time. Lets not forget that this is a show that lost Austin, Undertaker, Eddie, and Big Show post-split leaving only HHH, Jericho and to an extent Kane as recognised WWE main eventers. Of course theres been some awful shit on the RAW side, but to suggest its all been awful while SD has been one big bed of roses is at best a little blinkered.
"You dont appreciate a lot of stuff in school until you get older. Little things like being spanked every day by a middle aged woman: stuff you'd pay good money for these days."
I'm not sure what Heyman was doing or what he wasn't doing, but I think it's pretty clear that there were ECW trends that were carried down to SMACKDOWN! when Heyman started writing the shows.
On the old ECW shows on TNN, every week, we'd get Super Crazy vs Tajiri, Mike Awesome vs Masato Tanaka, and RVD vs Jerry Lynn. Strangely enough, that's not too far off from the truth.
On SMACKDOWN! we got a lot of the same matches every week, like Benoit vs Angle. Hey, the matches were great. I don't mean to complain, but all Heyman really did was find two guys who worked great together and paired them up. Not much creativity there.
As for the crap, I think it's safe to assume that anything wedding-related was Stephanie's idea. Everything else was pretty boring when Angle wasn't on the mic and Rey wasn't jumping around.
First off, very good discussion going on here, but I have to go along with Mr. Satire (Excal), and not jump on all is perfect on Smackdown bandwagon.
For every Mattitude SD done which is great we get Bill "I hate small people" Demott, Albert hate me for being hairy, and of recently Noble's VERY ITALIAN cousin, which made no sense and now is totally dropped. Or all these Stephanie projects?... It's also annoying seeing everything bad on Smackdown is a Steph project and anything good is a Heyman project
I've also noticed the SD is allowed so much more leeway with bad stuff while if Raw gets hanged right away. If Raw had Benoit/Angle and had it overshadowed by something as bad as Al/Torrie/Dawn, people would want Gewirtz head on a stick, or is that a Steph idea as well?
SD has the horses which Raw doesn't. Another very important aspect no one mentions is SD is taped, they have the advantage of adding crowd heat and edit up messups (both which is done alot), something screws up or comes off really badly on Raw, there screwed and it's out there. Something goes bad on SD they can always fix it and make it look like a real smooth project.
Not dissing Heyman, I like most of his writing, I like a lot of stuff on Smackdown. But to say 9 out of 10 things on Smackdown are better then Raw, I just don't see it at all. Both shows have their positives and negatives... Plus Heyman on SD does have the advantage of not having to book around Sir Son-in-law.
: As for the crap, I think it's safe to assume that : anything wedding-related was Stephanie's idea.
Al-Torrie-Dawn was actually Heyman's idea.
: Everything else was pretty boring when Angle wasn't : on the mic and Rey wasn't jumping around.
Yeah, I thought the idea was to pair Heyman up with guys who couldn't talk, yet now I read something in the spoilers that looks like Heyman is going to be taking center stage in the Team Angle group which seems to be one of the few things that was working.
Just like Heyman to attach his gobbler to the biggest teat he can find in hopes of sucking off some heat for his beyond tired, beyond dated (Catskills magician?!) managerial character. If he's such a miracle worker, why not pair him up with the FBII abortion he brought back from the Bingo Hall days?
(Agreeing that DeMott as Taz II wasn't working either.)
When does Heyman ever talk for Angle though? Now Heyman's taking center stage when he's not even writing anymore? So its his fault they're putting him in a cage match when he's not the head writer for the show? Explain that one to me. To me, Lesnar-Heyman in a Steel Cage sounds like Heyman's departure.
Heyman being demoted is the best thing for him as I am sure at some point he would have butted heads with Vince BIGTIME which would have lead to him getting fired.
I am sure Vince is smart enough to keep listening to Heyman's input as the man simply knows wrestling. He has done wonders for Smackdown and I do not think Smackdown would be nearly this good if it was not for Heyman.
Of course, the true test of heyman's worth will be if Smackdown starts to tank. Then you will see Heyman as head writer for Smackdown AND RAW.
Big brother representative: Now, Mr. Simpson, may I ask why you're here? Homer's Brain: Don't say revenge. Don't say revenge. Homer: Ummm... revenge? Homer's Brain: Okay, that's it. I'm outta here. [Sound FX: step step step step step... slam]