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The W - Movies & TV - Heroes 3x5 "Angels and Monsters"
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John Orquiola
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Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 151 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.79
You know what pissed me off? Now that it's been revealed the company created synthetic abilities for many of the characters, all the rhetorical prattling for three seasons Mohinder did in his voice overs was pretty much worthless. Now I wish we never had to hear his pointless musings in the first place.

One day, I'd really like to see the Heroes family tree. A lot of these characters are related and Adam seems to be the top of the tree. Obviously Claire is his descendant, and I'm guessing just from the blonde hair Claire's mother is too. Sylar, Nathan, and Peter are all brothers and Claire's uncles. Just out of curiosity's sake I'd like to see the Monroe/Petrelli/whoever else relationships spelled out.

Also, since some characters like Nathan and Tracy/Nikki had their abilities given to them, I guess the offshoots of Adam Monroe are "naturally" powered? After all, Adam is centuries older than Dr. Zimmerman's (nice, obvious Star Trek Voyager nod) experiments into synthetic abilities.

Ghost trouble: If Linderman is a vision generated by some fat dude, how is does he hand Daphne files?

It's been three years. Hiro has neither gotten smarter nor has his dialogue evolved from the platitudes of a comic book reading 11 year old.

Did I recognize former Smackdown wrestler Luther Reigns as the bartender in the bar scene? I LOL'd when he punched the shit out of Hiro.

As a die hard worshipper of The Wire, it pains me to see their stellar cast slumming it on this show. Not only is Marlo Stanfield one of the Villains, but now Bubbles is too. Who's next? Bunk? Prez? Rawls? Stringer Bell? Money's money and I'm sure Heroes pays pretty well, but to see these great actors go from one of the pinnacles of television fine dining to what's basically the TV equivalent of Taco Bell is a drag.

(edited by John Orquiola on 14.10.08 0848)
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The King of Keith
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Since: 4.11.02
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.22
Linderman's not a ghost. He's being put in people's minds by Parkman's dad. They explained this at the end of the episode when Parkman Sr. was talking to Papa Petrelli.

The whole show is a mess.



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kentish
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Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.76
I dropped this show 2 weeks ago and feel like I made the right decision. I wanted this show to get better, as I hope anything comics related succeeds, but I don't see that happening.

You are right, it is painful to see so many good actors given such lousy dialogue.




"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

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John Orquiola
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Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 151 days
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.79
    Originally posted by The King of Keith
    Linderman's not a ghost. He's being put in people's minds by Parkman's dad. They explained this at the end of the episode when Parkman Sr. was talking to Papa Petrelli.

    The whole show is a mess.


Yep. I posted before I finished the episode. But Linderman being a Parkman vision still doesn't explain how the vision is handing files to Daphne.
Texas Kelly
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Since: 3.1.02
From: FOREST HILLS CONTROLS THE UNIVERSE

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.27
Ladies and gentlemen, the following public service message is brought to you by your friends from D-Generation X, who would like to remind each and every one of you that if you're not down with that, we've got two words for you...

    Originally posted by John Orquiola
    Also, since some characters like Nathan and Tracy/Nikki had their abilities given to them, I guess the offshoots of Adam Monroe are "naturally" powered? After all, Adam is centuries older than Dr. Zimmerman's (nice, obvious Star Trek Voyager nod) experiments into synthetic abilities.

I don't think you can automatically presume that. Assuming that the founders of the Company are all (for lack of a better term) "purebloods", you'd think that Nathan would be naturally powered given that both his parents would be (Angela and her precognitive dreams; Arthur and his presumably yet-to-be revealed power, which may be a long time coming given that he seems to be in a coma and Maury is communicating with him telepathically). It's easy to posit that Claire is the progeny of Adam Monroe, but it's also just as easy to posit that she was the result of experimentation given the knowledge that Nathan is a "halfblood".

    Originally posted by John Orquiola
    Ghost trouble: Linderman is more than a vision only Nathan can see. Now not only does Daphne see and talk to him, somehow this intangible ghost can deliver files to her! How does that work?

Simple: The files are part of the visions Maury implanted in Daphne and don't really exist. She "sees" the files and it lifts a mental block Maury left there and gives her mind access to the needed information.

A few other thoughts of mine from the episode:

- Hiro seemingly killing Ando was a "WHOA!" moment for me. Totally wasn't expecting that, but I guess it's reflective of the dark turn this season has taken. I can totally see Adam coming back and reviving Ando with his blood and there being some bad blood in the future between Hiro & Ando as a result. (At least that's the direction I hope they take - Ando still has value to the show at this point and actually killing him would be a semi-waste.)

- Big continuity error in the black-hole guy suicide scene: They totally forgot about Sylar's enhanced hearing power. He should easily have been able to hear what HRG was saying to black-hole guy instead of just standing there like a clueless doofus. (Granted, I'm sure Sylar knows that HRG wants nothing more than to waste him as soon as he has the chance, but that doesn't mean he has to act totally oblivious to the fact.)

- Does Maya being cocooned by Spider-Mohinder = Maya dead?

I can't wait for the scene next week between the Bennett family and the puppetmaster. That's going to be something else.



e-mail me at texas (dot) kelly (at) gmailread a bunch of incoherent nonsense
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smark/net attack Advisory System is Elevatedsmark/net attack Advisory System Status is: Elevated
(Holds; June 18, 2006)
While the switch from Cena to RVD should alleviate some complaints, the inevitability of the belt's return to Cena (note where Summerslam is this year) and the poor initial showing by the new ECW are enough to keep the indicator where it is for now. The pieces are in place, though, especially on RAW, for improvements to be made to the IWC's psyche in the near future.
CxMorgado
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Since: 21.1.02
From: Boston MA is the rippen'ist town...

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.88
    Originally posted by Texas Kelly

      Originally posted by John Orquiola
      Ghost trouble: Linderman is more than a vision only Nathan can see. Now not only does Daphne see and talk to him, somehow this intangible ghost can deliver files to her! How does that work?

    Simple: The files are part of the visions Maury implanted in Daphne and don't really exist. She "sees" the files and it lifts a mental block Maury left there and gives her mind access to the needed information.


I thought they showed her picking the files up off the bench; I don't recall seeing "Linderman" ever touch them. Maury was hiding in the background the whole time, he could have just left them there in advance.

    Originally posted by Texas Kelly

    - Big continuity error in the black-hole guy suicide scene: They totally forgot about Sylar's enhanced hearing power. He should easily have been able to hear what HRG was saying to black-hole guy instead of just standing there like a clueless doofus. (Granted, I'm sure Sylar knows that HRG wants nothing more than to waste him as soon as he has the chance, but that doesn't mean he has to act totally oblivious to the fact.)


Actually, it's not. He doesn't have that power anymore, remember? All his season one powers are gone (confirmed by the writers), except for telekinesis, which they've promised to explain.

I really don't see where all the hate is coming from this season. Most of the "plot holes" are pretty easily explained if you put your mind to it. Mohinder's annoying voice overs, for example, still apply, since not all the characters are test tube babies. It's not a perfect show, but it never was.

In some way, I actually feel bad for the creators: they tried to progress the characters and do things like evolve Hiro in season 2, and the audience complained about it being boring, so they took him back to square one, and the audience is now complaining that he hasn't grown as a character (personally, I'm enjoying him just fine this season. Hiro and Ando work best as comic relief with just a touch of the main storyline's darkness). They kind of can't win. I think people are expecting this to be a Lost caliber show, and it really never was.



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Texas Kelly
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Since: 3.1.02
From: FOREST HILLS CONTROLS THE UNIVERSE

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.27
Ladies and gentlemen, the following public service message is brought to you by your friends from D-Generation X, who would like to remind each and every one of you that if you're not down with that, we've got two words for you...

    Originally posted by CxMorgado
    Actually, it's not. He doesn't have that power anymore, remember? All his season one powers are gone (confirmed by the writers), except for telekinesis, which they've promised to explain.

Explain, then, how Sylar went ka-boom with Ted Sprague's power in the alternate future in the last episode if he's "lost" all his non-TK season one powers. I'd also like to see a source where this was "confirmed", 'cause I haven't seen one.



e-mail me at texas (dot) kelly (at) gmailread a bunch of incoherent nonsense
now 52% more incoherent!
smark/net attack Advisory System is Elevatedsmark/net attack Advisory System Status is: Elevated
(Holds; June 18, 2006)
While the switch from Cena to RVD should alleviate some complaints, the inevitability of the belt's return to Cena (note where Summerslam is this year) and the poor initial showing by the new ECW are enough to keep the indicator where it is for now. The pieces are in place, though, especially on RAW, for improvements to be made to the IWC's psyche in the near future.
CxMorgado
Boudin rouge








Since: 21.1.02
From: Boston MA is the rippen'ist town...

Since last post: 338 days
Last activity: 2 min.
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.88
    Originally posted by Texas Kelly
      Originally posted by CxMorgado
      Actually, it's not. He doesn't have that power anymore, remember? All his season one powers are gone (confirmed by the writers), except for telekinesis, which they've promised to explain.

    Explain, then, how Sylar went ka-boom with Ted Sprague's power in the alternate future in the last episode if he's "lost" all his non-TK season one powers. I'd also like to see a source where this was "confirmed", 'cause I haven't seen one.


Well, I mean, you said it yourself: it was an alternate future. I think the fact that we've seen duplicate powers left and right this and last season and the fact that it's 4 years in the future pretty much covers them on that.

As for confirmation, no problem. The writers do a Q+A over at comicbookresources.com every week:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18281


    KCcat asks:

    “In ‘The Second Coming,’ Sylar says to Claire, ‘You see, I lost everything that made me special. Does Sylar mean that he permanently lost all of his acquired powers except for telekinesis?Has his slate of powers been ‘wiped clean’ and does he have to start all over again? If so, then by the end of ‘The Butterfly Effect,’ it appears that he only has his telekinesis power, Claire's healing and regeneration power, and Bob's power to turn things to gold. Or am I reading into things?”

    Nope that’s right. Sylar’s starting over. Getting a whole new slate of powers as he goes. You can count Jesse’s voice powers into the mix as well.


http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18343


    Stephen David Warked wants to know:

    “If Sylar's slate is wiped clean the way you describe in BEHIND THE ECLIPSE #1, then his only power should be the ability to read brains, right?”

    You’d think — but for some reason, he was able to hang on to telekenisis. We’ll learn a little more about the effect of his first murder in chapter #8 of this volume — “Villains” (yes, it’s the chapter and volume title — like “new Shimmer”)


And to your alternate future question...

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18423


    “If Sylar was starting with a clean slate (save for telekinesis) at the start of Vol. 3, how does he suddenly have Isaac's and Ted's abilities again four years in the future?”

    Uhhhm, not so suddenly, four years in the future — that’s four years of power gatherin’ — now the question you’ve gotta ask yourself is how did Sylar get those powers? Did he kill the fourth Penguin?


Now, there's always the chance they're lying. But usually if there isn't a way to give a straight answer, they don't give one.

(edited by CxMorgado on 14.10.08 1651)


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EddieBurkett
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Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.90
Are we forgetting that Nathan is Claire's father, or did the writer's confirm that's been retconned out?

I could buy Adam as a distant progenitor.

I feel bad for Maya, only because she always winds up in the stupidest storylines, and I don't know if its necessarily her fault.

About the only good thing about this episode was the revelation that Parkman's dad is behind Linderman's appearance.

The writers need to work with the promo department about not giving away spoilers in the commercials. I figured if they were promo-ing Mr. Petrelli, then his reveal would come early in the episode. Instead, it appears that his reveal was supposed to be this week's big ending.

I have a feeling that the Company is going to turn out to be the good guys in the end, and everyone fighting them will be villains.

Hiro's sudden stabbing of Ando made no sense, what-so-ever. At the very least, he should have froze time to mull it over. Unless he did freeze time and set up a realistic faux-death, and we saw it from everyone else's persective. Of course, the speedster would have been able to keep up with his control of time, so perhaps that didn't happen. I agree that Adam's probably going to save Ando and turn out to be a big hero after all.

The problem with this show is that they are so determined to keep everyone's agenda secret that no one can do anything interesting that makes a lick of sense. What we need are some clearly defined heroes and villains, and then we can watch both sides prepare for whatevers going to happen. Right now everyone is dancing but no one knows who their partner is. Its confusing, and the show is too boring for me to care about figuring it out.



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Peter The Hegemon
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Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

Since last post: 11 days
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.02
Eddie makes a good point about everyone's motivations being mysterious. The other big problem is that it's all happening too fast. It's hard to care about what's happening when there's always another big thing about to happen, and when it's hard to tell what's going to stick and what's going to turn out to be an alternate timeline or ruse. Is Maya dead? Is Ando? The vortex guy? Kind of hard to care at this point.
J. Kyle
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Since: 21.2.02
From: The Land of Aloha

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.06
Sing this special song. It's just for you.
    Originally posted by John Orquiola
    Just out of curiosity's sake I'd like to see the Monroe/Petrelli/whoever else relationships spelled out.
I have a feeling this will be done sooner than later, if Future Claire is Claire, to facilitate the Claire/Peter hookup. Unless they want to lie and insist that's not what they've hinted at.

So much for Big Daddy P looking like Adam.

    Originally posted by John Orquiola

    Ghost trouble: If Linderman is a vision generated by some fat dude, how is does he hand Daphne files?
Pragmatic answer: Who cares. Linderman being back is one of the few consistent bright spots, and Matt's Dad being behind it is one of the few sensical plot twists.

Fanboy answer: Because Parkman Senior made Daphne not see him walk up and hand her the files through the illusion.

I am earning way too many No Prizes per episode for this show.

    Originally posted by John Orquiola

    It's been three years. Hiro has neither gotten smarter nor has his dialogue evolved from the platitudes of a comic book reading 11 year old.

Like I said last week, Hiro's only gotten dumber, and worse with his comic platitudes.

It was interesting to see that Hiro can now move/alter things he isn't even touching (via putting Adam back in the coffin and closing the lid). If that is the case, will he be able to think through time too one day and not just space?

My gripe of the week:
Fresh off seeing a reformed Sylar care for his son learning they're brothers, then being taught Sylar's power because Sylar trusts him to do the right thing, Peter travels back in time to teleport into an inescapable cell and... assault Sylar? Zuh?

Question of the week:
Is Sylar reading/understanding other people's emotions through some sort of weird hybrid of his and Peter's powers?

Random bitchings:
  • A man with a doctorate doesn't know that when you hang your victims on a wall you could at least drape a tarp over them?
  • Especially when his girflfriend brings him a missing poster of one of them?
  • And has a key?
  • Why wouldn't the files list powers? Because that's the only way I could see someone with no offensive capability going after a man who rips holes in friggin space/time.
  • Is going after people, alone, when you don't know their powers, more dumb or less than dumb than having a purely defensive power and saying "Hey, I bet I could take a vortex with a tazer!"




"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned." The Buddha
Tenken347
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Since: 27.2.03
From: Parts Unknown

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.03
    Originally posted by J. Kyle
    Question of the week:
    Is Sylar reading/understanding other people's emotions through some sort of weird hybrid of his and Peter's powers?


No, when Mrs. Petrelli recruited Sylar, she let him kill one of their agents who had the ability to get psychic impressions of things (and people, I guess) by touching them. That's how he's doing it.

I agree that this episode was a little too busy and confusing. I do like that we're starting to see the army of villains take shape. My big question is, if Linderman is just a psychic impression created by the Nightmare Man, then how did Nathan get healed? We saw Peter's interaction with Nathan's corpse, and he didn't do anything then. So something else had to have saved him. Maybe the blood transfusion he got last season continues to heal him? If so, does that make Nathan and Mr. Bennett functionally immortal? And if that's the case, we now have a cast that includes Peter, Sylar, Claire, Nathan, Noah, and Adam who cannot be killed. So I'd kind of like to know what's going on there.
komarkaze
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Since: 9.1.03
From: VA

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.64
The real important question no one has asked yet: if Mohinder has become some type of spider man, where exactly is he shooting his webbing from? I doubt it's coming from his wrists. Maya should have killed him dead the second he approached her after the monster comment.

But I'm on board the train of folks that call BS that Sylar lost his powers. Sylar had absorbed a slew of powers by end of season 1, including telekenesis, exploding and future painting. By end of season 2, we only see him recover telekenesis. In season 3, we see alternate future Sylar have both exploding and future painting powers. The events of season 1 definitely happened in the Heroes universe, so that demonstrates that no matter what futures exist, Sylar should still have his powers. Unless the writers introduce the stupid manipulating-time plot device.

Hiro is right: he is the worst, most incompetent hero ever. If he had just not been a complete idiot, he would never open the safe w/ the half formula to begin with. Or knocked out The Haitian so he could lost the other half. Or (presumably) kill his best friend to join the other team in a possibly misguided attempt to save the world.

Did the show really have to keep Ali Larter on the show? They did good by killing Nikki Sanders, but now they introduced a character who looks, walks and talks exactly like Nikki, but w/ different powers.

I see the inklings of emo Claire forming before my eyes. Her dialogue is probably the worst out of all the characters, and that's saying something.



Can't stop the Signal
MoeGates
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Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.03
Nikki's not dead - you never see her body, just the house with her in it exploding. As per the Soap Opera rule, if you never actually see the character recognizably dead, they're alive. And if you do, it's still only 50-50 they stay dead.



www.allcitynewyork.com
Peter The Hegemon
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Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

Since last post: 11 days
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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.02
Um, wasn't Nikki's body seen at her funeral?
Alessandro
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Worcester MA

Since last post: 119 days
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.03
    Originally posted by J. Kyle
    It was interesting to see that Hiro can now move/alter things he isn't even touching (via putting Adam back in the coffin and closing the lid).


Actually, I'm gonna guess that he stopped* time, physically picked up Adam's now-inanimate body, placed it into the coffin, closed the lid, then got back into place and restarted time.










*I say "stop" time when I believe he's just slowing down time to the point where everything seems like it's stopped ... but that's just the loser-geek in me pontificating.



Parquet Wishes and Leprechaun Dreams

The most hilarious thing about Tommy Dreamer is that everyone else in WWE, from Shelton Benjamin to dudes who haven't even debuted yet, has a T-shirt available. WWE doesn't even bother printing up a T-shirt for Tommy Dreamer, A MAN WHOSE GIMMICK IS WEARING A T-SHIRT WHILE WRESTLING. And why is that? Because not a god damn person would ever pay money for a Tommy Dreamer shirt. Not even his own mother. As a result he usually ends up wearing a shirt that says "WRESTLEMANIA 24" or "JUDGEMENT DAY." I think it's time for Tommy Dreamer to just print up a T-shirt that says "UPCOMING PAY PER VIEW"

brick
Bockwurst








Since: 17.1.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 574 days
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.00
    Originally posted by Alessandro
      Originally posted by J. Kyle
      It was interesting to see that Hiro can now move/alter things he isn't even touching (via putting Adam back in the coffin and closing the lid).


    Actually, I'm gonna guess that he stopped* time, physically picked up Adam's now-inanimate body, placed it into the coffin, closed the lid, then got back into place and restarted time.










    *I say "stop" time when I believe he's just slowing down time to the point where everything seems like it's stopped ... but that's just the loser-geek in me pontificating.


For me this just added more confusion to Hiro's abilities. If he is just slowing down time, as it appeared when the speed girl stole the formula, then how does he move through space, such as going from Japan to New York.

I've found myself enjoying the show less and less, even when ignoring issues like this, throw them in, and I am on the verge of giving up on this show.
Alessandro
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Worcester MA

Since last post: 119 days
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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.03
    Originally posted by brick
    If he is just slowing down time, as it appeared when the speed girl stole the formula, then how does he move through space, such as going from Japan to New York.


He's never gone from Japan to New York ... He's travelled from Japan to an alternate future New York (it's like when the Flash vibrates his molecules to traverse different dimensions).





Parquet Wishes and Leprechaun Dreams

The most hilarious thing about Tommy Dreamer is that everyone else in WWE, from Shelton Benjamin to dudes who haven't even debuted yet, has a T-shirt available. WWE doesn't even bother printing up a T-shirt for Tommy Dreamer, A MAN WHOSE GIMMICK IS WEARING A T-SHIRT WHILE WRESTLING. And why is that? Because not a god damn person would ever pay money for a Tommy Dreamer shirt. Not even his own mother. As a result he usually ends up wearing a shirt that says "WRESTLEMANIA 24" or "JUDGEMENT DAY." I think it's time for Tommy Dreamer to just print up a T-shirt that says "UPCOMING PAY PER VIEW"

StingArmy
Andouille








Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

Since last post: 53 days
Last activity: 27 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.45
While watching the episode, in the first Daphne-Linderman scene, for some reason I noticed that the files Linderman wanted Daphne to read were just lying around and he didn't hand them to her. I don't usually pick up on little details like that on first viewings, but I did this time I guess. After reading this thread I went back and watched the second Daphne-Linderman scene to see what happened with the Nathan file, and yep, same thing. The file was just sitting on the bench and were NOT passed from hand to hand.

Linderman has never physically handed Daphne or Nathan anything, so the writers are doing their jobs in that respect.

- StingArmy
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