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The W - Current Events & Politics - Heartburn coming for Micheal Moore...
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Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1233 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Coming Summer 2004....



From the site(www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com):
Contrary to its title, Michael Moore Hates America isn’t a hatchet job on the filmmaker. It’s a journey across the nation where we meet celebrities, scholars and average folks alike, all of whom are living the American Dream and proving that America is a great place to be! In the process, we’ll look at Michael Moore’s claims about the country, its people, and our way of life.

Incidentally, Wilson tries to interview Michael Moore(sound familiar) and Moore refuses to talk to him(sound familiar). All of this is part of the flick, though.

All I can say is: HA!

(edited by Grimis on 21.5.04 1435)

{EDIT: I wish you'd said "SORRY for using a 790 pixel wide graphic in my signature because it breaks the table" - CRZ }

(edited by CRZ on 21.5.04 1250)

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eviljonhunt81
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Since: 6.1.02
From: not Japan

Since last post: 2951 days
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.88
"Error: Cannot find website: www.michealmoorehatesamerica.com"

Edit: I get it. They spell it "Michael."



(edited by eviljonhunt81 on 21.5.04 1325)


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Roy.
Pepperoni








Since: 25.2.04
From: Keystone State

Since last post: 2321 days
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.55
Does the film have a distributor? A money man? Anybody backing it up? Without that, as noble as his ideas, I don't see this film doing anything for anybody.

I'd see it, just as I want to see Moore's new movie. Reading the one-sheet on the website, though, he's talking to "experts who haven't bought into the rhetoric", including Bruce F'n Willis and Goldie Hawn? Sure, Penn and Dennis Miller might have some insights, but Bruno? Bruce Willis is an expert? I love the guy's movies, but apart from playing the harmonica and making movies, what qualifies him as an "expert"? That doesn't make any sense to me. Methinks the director is cashing in favors with his Hollywood friends.

And this guy seems just as arrogant and self important as Moore does. They probably are so alike, it's scary (except for the whole opposite sides of the political spectrum thing).



Gravity is a contributing factor in nearly 73 percent of all accidents involving falling objects.
Stilton
Frankfurter








Since: 7.2.04
From: Canada

Since last post: 3147 days
Last activity: 3147 days
#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.89
Does Michael Moore hate America? Or does he hate the greedy bastards who are robbing it blind? This is just more right wing propaganda. It seems to be any time someone stands up for 'Americans' they get accused of hating 'America'. Maybe that's true is 'America' means corporate criminals and corrupt government officials.



"Have you seen my baseball?"
cranlsn
Liverwurst








Since: 18.3.02
From: Sussex, WI

Since last post: 141 days
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.28

    Originally posted by Stilton
    Does Michael Moore hate America? Or does he hate the greedy bastards who are robbing it blind? This is just more right wing propaganda. It seems to be any time someone stands up for 'Americans' they get accused of hating 'America'. Maybe that's true is 'America' means corporate criminals and corrupt government officials.


You'd be right on...

If:

a. "stands up for 'Americans'" = making up 'facts' to suit your own agenda or distorting those that exist.

b. "corporate criminals" = businesses that supply jobs for the rest of us.

Other than that, you're right. Michael Moore is a stand up guy...






Stilton
Frankfurter








Since: 7.2.04
From: Canada

Since last post: 3147 days
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.89
    Originally posted by cranlsn
    "corporate criminals" = businesses that supply jobs for the rest of us.


Isn't the loss of American jobs one of Moore's key issues? Didn't he rise to fame protesting the closing of automotive plants in Flint Michigan in his film Roger and Me? Isn't Michael Moore trying to save American jobs from 'corporate criminals' who are sending those jobs overseas to line their pockets with the savings garnered from cheap foreign labor?

Picture this, a room where hundreds of 12 and 13 year old asian girls are sewing running shoes for less than a dollar an hour under a huge banner that says "Just Do It!" Does Nike have any shoe factories in the USA? What jobs are they giving to Americans? That's what I, and Moore, mean by corporate criminals. Not the conscientious companies that actually try to do some good for the people in their communities.



"Have you seen my baseball?"
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3225 days
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
    Originally posted by Stilton
    Picture this, a room where hundreds of 12 and 13 year old asian girls are sewing running shoes for less than a dollar an hour under a huge banner that says "Just Do It!" Does Nike have any shoe factories in the USA? What jobs are they giving to Americans? That's what I, and Moore, mean by corporate criminals. Not the conscientious companies that actually try to do some good for the people in their communities.


Self-sufficiency would be the death of our standard of living.

What jobs is Nike giving to Americans? How about Nike stores? People who sell Nike clothing? Athletes who they sponsor? People who produce and develop their commercials? And on and on and on...

Unless you want to do away with Free Trade, find a better example of "corporate criminals" then Nike. It's easy to say, "don't outsource" and keep jobs at home when it's not your business. The beauty of free trade is that it forces specialization which creates a great diversity of jobs. Will some people be left in the dust? Sure but it's a necessary evil, IMO.



"Each race determines for itself what indecencies are. Nature knows no indecencies; man invents them." - Mark Twain
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.64
    Originally posted by Stilton
    Isn't the loss of American jobs one of Moore's key issues?

Yes, it is.


    Didn't he rise to fame protesting the closing of automotive plants in Flint Michigan in his film Roger and Me? Isn't Michael Moore trying to save American jobs from 'corporate criminals' who are sending those jobs overseas to line their pockets with the savings garnered from cheap foreign labor?

You mean like the way he hires a Canadian firm to handle his website and publicity?



    Picture this, a room where hundreds of 12 and 13 year old asian girls are sewing running shoes for less than a dollar an hour under a huge banner that says "Just Do It!" Does Nike have any shoe factories in the USA? What jobs are they giving to Americans? That's what I, and Moore, mean by corporate criminals. Not the conscientious companies that actually try to do some good for the people in their communities.


Well, a few things here, first, Sally Struthers taught me that I can feed a child for $.75 a day. So, with them making more than that an hour, they seem like they are making an adequate amount of money.

Does the fact that they make shoes for $1 an hour create American jobs? Well, yes, because if they were made for minimum wage here, they would cost about 7 times as much to purchase, and nobody would buy them. So, all the salesmen at footlocker would be out of work.

Being smart business wise, and creating things at a cheap price, doesnt make you a corperate criminal. Raiding your company's pension funds or cooking the books does.



Thank you for your irrelevant opinion.

Doe, Ray, Me, Fa, So, La, TITO SANTANA!
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.27
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    You mean like the way he hires a Canadian firm to handle his website and publicity?


Dude, get over it already... it's not like he's outsourcing to China, or even Mexico, for that matter. It's frickin' Canada. They're America cold-filtered...

    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Well, yes, because if they were made for minimum wage here, they would cost about 7 times as much to purchase, and nobody would buy them. So, all the salesmen at footlocker would be out of work.

    Being smart business wise, and creating things at a cheap price, doesnt make you a corperate criminal. Raiding your company's pension funds or cooking the books does.


The shoe wouldn't necessarily cost more. The stock wouldn't be valued as high, because the company would be "less profitable". If we simply let 14 year olds work for $2 a day in this country...

(edited by Leroy on 26.5.04 0823)


BigVitoMark
Lap cheong








Since: 10.8.02
From: Queen's University, Canada

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
    Originally posted by Leroy
    The shoe wouldn't necessarily cost more. The stock wouldn't be valued as high, because the company would be "less profitable". If we simply let 14 year olds work for $2 a day in this country...


Yes of course...I'm sure big bad evil Nike would readily sacrifice their profit margins for the sake of the American shoemaker. To say the shoes would be seven times more expensive was I'm sure intended as an exaggeration, but don't kid yourself...if production costs go up people are paying more for the shoes...and yes, they will pay it...if rational choice entered into the sneaker industry things would be a lot different than they are today.

Nike doesn't kill American jobs; minimum wage laws kill American jobs. Why should Nike pay someone six bucks an hour in the US to do a job they can get done for 1/48 the cost overseas? If you can find large groups of people willing to the task for such a reduced rate, clearly domestic workers are overpaid. Therein lies your problem.




The Toronto Maple Leafs: Hockey's equivalent of the Chicago Cubs, but easier to hate.
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 1 day
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.27
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    Nike doesn't kill American jobs; minimum wage laws kill American jobs. Why should Nike pay someone six bucks an hour in the US to do a job they can get done for 1/48 the cost overseas? If you can find large groups of people willing to the task for such a reduced rate, clearly domestic workers are overpaid.


If you "employ" a poverty stricken population that's being governed by a virtual dictatorship - and the only reliable source of income is you're minimum wage job that keeps them far below the poverty line - I don't care what bullshit economics term you call it - you are using slave labor.

The only investment companies like Nike have in the United States is two places - the value of their stock in our market, and consumer base that buys their products. And in return, they get huge tax right offs.

We have minimum wage laws because corporations would pay you nothing if they could get away with it. And third-world, dirt poor countries is exactly where you can get away with it.


(edited by Leroy on 26.5.04 1509)



BigVitoMark
Lap cheong








Since: 10.8.02
From: Queen's University, Canada

Since last post: 3341 days
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ICQ:  
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
    Originally posted by Leroy
    If you "employ" a poverty stricken population that's being governed by a virtual dictatorship - and the only reliable source of income is you're minimum wage job that keeps them far below the poverty line - I don't care what bullshit economics term you call it - you are using slave labor.


Like you said, the dollar a day big US business pays them is the only reliable source of income they have. In other words, it's that or nothing. Keep in mind four points...

a.) an American dollar is worth a hell of a lot more in terms of purchasing power in third world countries than it is in North America (no, not enough to live a comfortable life, but it's something).

b.) an American dollar a day is clearly better than the alternative, which is to have nothing...if it weren't, workers in impoverished countries would just say "thanks, but no thanks" when Nike comes looking for workers.

c.) if Nike were forced to pay North American wages to third world workers, they'd stay home to employ more educated people and the so-called exploited would be left with even less than they have now.

d.) Nike's responsibility is to earn a profit for it's shareholders, not to right all the evils of the world. If they stopped using cheap labour it isn't as if the political climates in those countries would suddenly change, allow the economy to grow, and allow the people to earn an extravagant living. They're not creating the system, just working within it.





The Toronto Maple Leafs: Hockey's equivalent of the Chicago Cubs, but easier to hate.
OndaGrande
Kolbasz








Since: 1.5.03
From: California, Home of THE LAKERS!

Since last post: 61 days
Last activity: 4 hours
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.77

as this has gone on a tangent about Nike, I'll chip in this. The Reason Van's closed the last of their american factories was because the process for vulcanizing rubber (which most shoe soles are made of) creates toxic waste that is so hazardous, laws here in the U.S. (and other civilized countries) basically prohibited them from making shoes here.That was the explaination given in a Trade Publication (Transworld Surf Business IIRC.)
The same logic applies to alot of industries that have moved production out of the country. Lax enviromental laws in China, Malaysia and elsewhere are a big reason companies move there (as well as cheap labor.)
I'm not defending Nike in any way, but there is more to the case than simply labor costs.



LEARN IT, KNOW IT, LIVE IT!
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1950 days
Last activity: 1884 days
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.43
"Why should Nike pay someone six bucks an hour in the US to do a job they can get done for 1/48 the cost overseas?"

This is what disgusts me the most about economics today. The word "ethics" seems to be of a foreign tongue until somebody gets caught out in a scandal. Fucking hell, this makes me ill. I've got nothing against outsourcing, but saying "well, they're getting one dollar more than they WOULD", like exploiting them for uber-cheap labour is some charitable exercise, is just sick. ESPECIALLY when you consider the massive gain in profits that the company gets from doing so. Money money money oh what a beautiful happy peaceful wonderful FREE world we live in. I'm off to spend 150 big ones on a pair of sneakers.



Once upon a time in China, some believe, around the year one double-ought three, head priest of the White Lotus Clan, Pai Mei was walking down the road, contemplating whatever it is that a man of Pai Mei's infinite power contemplates - which is another way of saying "who knows" - when a Shaolin monk appeared, traveling in the opposite direction. As the monk and the priest crossed paths, Pai Mei, in a practically unfathomable display of generosity, gave the monk the slightest of nods. The nod was not returned. Now was it the intention of the Shaolin monk to insult Pai Mei or did he just fail to see the generous social gesture? The motives of the monk remain unknown. What is known, are the consequences. The next morning Pai Mei appeared at the Shaolin Temple and demanded of the Temple's head abbot that he offer Pai Mei his neck to repay the insult. The Abbot at first tried to console Pai Mei, only to find Pai Mei was inconsolable. So began the massacre of the Shaolin Temple and all 60 of the monks inside at the fists of the White Lotus. And so began the legend of Pai Mei's five point palm exploding heart technique.
BigVitoMark
Lap cheong








Since: 10.8.02
From: Queen's University, Canada

Since last post: 3341 days
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ICQ:  
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.11
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    but saying "well, they're getting one dollar more than they WOULD", like exploiting them for uber-cheap labour is some charitable exercise, is just sick.


I never said it was charitable. It's mutually beneficial. Sounds to me like what you're saying is that big business should just throw money at people who don't deserve it out of the goodness of their heart and forget the very reason why they are in business and why people invest their money in their success. A tad impractical, don't you think?

(edited by BigVitoMark on 27.5.04 1200)


The Toronto Maple Leafs: Hockey's equivalent of the Chicago Cubs, but easier to hate.
IncredibleHeelHeat
Linguica








Since: 18.6.02
From: Upstate Oklahoma

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.00
Found this interesting article the other day.

Moore or less





"Elmer Fudd is the Kawada of the Cartoon world." - DEAN!
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1950 days
Last activity: 1884 days
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.60
"throw money at people who don't deserve it"

OR-and here's a crazy thought-pay the outsourced workers a half-decent wage (three dollars an hour?) rather than the insulting pittance they hand out just because they can get away with it. But hey, profit margins, gotta remember those.

"A tad impractical, don't you think?"

Impractical, maybe. Ethical, though. But this is a deep ideological difference which we won't settle. My mind boggles at the entire sustem of big business (massive mark-ups on products produced by workers on below-poverty-line wage, job cuts to maximise the wealth of those at the top-it's fucking GREED, people), whereas most seem willing to shrug and say "hey, what ya gonna do?". Just because this is the way our modern world works doesn't make it right. And before anyone bothers, no, I don't endorse communism or even socialism-but even if I did, it wouldn't change the fact that we have fucking assholes abusing capitalism in the worst possible way.





Once upon a time in China, some believe, around the year one double-ought three, head priest of the White Lotus Clan, Pai Mei was walking down the road, contemplating whatever it is that a man of Pai Mei's infinite power contemplates - which is another way of saying "who knows" - when a Shaolin monk appeared, traveling in the opposite direction. As the monk and the priest crossed paths, Pai Mei, in a practically unfathomable display of generosity, gave the monk the slightest of nods. The nod was not returned. Now was it the intention of the Shaolin monk to insult Pai Mei or did he just fail to see the generous social gesture? The motives of the monk remain unknown. What is known, are the consequences. The next morning Pai Mei appeared at the Shaolin Temple and demanded of the Temple's head abbot that he offer Pai Mei his neck to repay the insult. The Abbot at first tried to console Pai Mei, only to find Pai Mei was inconsolable. So began the massacre of the Shaolin Temple and all 60 of the monks inside at the fists of the White Lotus. And so began the legend of Pai Mei's five point palm exploding heart technique.
JayJayDean
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

Since last post: 13 days
Last activity: 10 hours
AIM:  
Y!:
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.02
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    massive mark-ups on products produced by workers on below-poverty-line wage, job cuts to maximise the wealth of those at the top-it's fucking GREED, people


How about to maximize profit while one can in case lean times are around the corner? Not to mention that even the well-paid-VIPs have to answer to shareholders (often), who aren't typically looking to invest in companies that aren't going to make them as much money as possible.

    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    And before anyone bothers, no, I don't endorse communism or even socialism-but even if I did, it wouldn't change the fact that we have fucking assholes abusing capitalism in the worst possible way.


I'd agree, except to change "abusing capitalism" to "making more money than ME".



“To get ass, you’ve got to bring ass." -- Roy Jones Jr.

"Your input has been noted.
I hope you don't take it personally if I disregard it."
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oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1950 days
Last activity: 1884 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.60
"How about to maximize profit while one can in case lean times are around the corner?"

Do you even look past your own nose? Lean times? Like 80% of the rest of the world dying on its ass? I'm pretty sure the US of A is safe from such lean times. "Blast his hide to Hades! And I was gogin to buy that Ivory backscratcher."

"I'd agree, except to change "abusing capitalism" to "making more money than ME"."

Oh for the love of....someone tries to float the notion of having values and it's laughed out of the building. Wonderful. You're absolutely right, if I were earning $12mil a year I'd do my UTMOST to screw over my fellow man and make it $13mil in a year. But why bother with this? You think it's excusable, I don't.

Fuck this world sucks.



Once upon a time in China, some believe, around the year one double-ought three, head priest of the White Lotus Clan, Pai Mei was walking down the road, contemplating whatever it is that a man of Pai Mei's infinite power contemplates - which is another way of saying "who knows" - when a Shaolin monk appeared, traveling in the opposite direction. As the monk and the priest crossed paths, Pai Mei, in a practically unfathomable display of generosity, gave the monk the slightest of nods. The nod was not returned. Now was it the intention of the Shaolin monk to insult Pai Mei or did he just fail to see the generous social gesture? The motives of the monk remain unknown. What is known, are the consequences. The next morning Pai Mei appeared at the Shaolin Temple and demanded of the Temple's head abbot that he offer Pai Mei his neck to repay the insult. The Abbot at first tried to console Pai Mei, only to find Pai Mei was inconsolable. So began the massacre of the Shaolin Temple and all 60 of the monks inside at the fists of the White Lotus. And so began the legend of Pai Mei's five point palm exploding heart technique.
JayJayDean
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

Since last post: 13 days
Last activity: 10 hours
AIM:  
Y!:
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.02
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    "How about to maximize profit while one can in case lean times are around the corner?"

    Do you even look past your own nose? Lean times? Like 80% of the rest of the world dying on its ass? I'm pretty sure the US of A is safe from such lean times. "Blast his hide to Hades! And I was gogin to buy that Ivory backscratcher."


Wow, that's a beautiful picture. Meanwhile, some of us working at companies where we need to scratch out every cent of profit just to make it would like to say "Fuck you. Go live in a tree in the Amazon if you don't like it."

If you're going to paint everyone trying to make money with the same wide brush, fine. However, I see no problem with the notion of thrying to maximize profits whenever possible because they quite probably won't always be there.

    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    "I'd agree, except to change "abusing capitalism" to "making more money than ME"."

    Oh for the love of....someone tries to float the notion of having values and it's laughed out of the building. Wonderful. You're absolutely right, if I were earning $12mil a year I'd do my UTMOST to screw over my fellow man and make it $13mil in a year. But why bother with this? You think it's excusable, I don't.

    Fuck this world sucks.


I HAVE values. I have a total responsibilty to provide for my family, and I feel a responsibilty to treat people with love and help them however and whenever possible.

I do NOT feel a responsibilty to feel guilty about maximizing my ability to make money.

(Note: Those are simplified for the purposes of the topic. I'm PRETTY SURE I have other values, as well.)



“To get ass, you’ve got to bring ass." -- Roy Jones Jr.

"Your input has been noted.
I hope you don't take it personally if I disregard it."
-- Guru Zim

"Speak English or face admin retribution." -- CRZ
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- DrDirt, Moral Politics (2005)
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