You know what? I agree with you, Ta2grrl. Hardcore Holly deserves a shot at the big-time, based on his years of distinguished service. HOWEVER, there are a number of caveats: 1. The WWE hasn't made me care: Listen, the boy cut one intense pissed-off promo that showed him getting dropped on his head, and he wants revenge. Cool, now show up the next week to seek your revenge and take your medicine. That's all the Holly has earned in my book. Neither he nor the WWE have truly sold me on any real depth of character or sympathy for this man. Since that first promo, every time Holly has touched a mic we've seen diminishing returns. He chants the same mantra: "I'll break your neck," and he stares at the camera, looking pissed. Not quite as intense the fourth or fifth time.
Remember last year when Brock Lesnar "shattered the knee" of John Cena? Cena was on our screen every week with a new rap, each one more intense than the next, explaining that while he was not 100%, he was healing, and with each passing day, his rage was growing. Sure we knew that Cena was going to take his medicine, and Cena was definitely not ready for the main event, but he MADE US CARE. And it was that foundation of interest in the character which intensified his push.
I see no such thing at work with Hardcore Holly. Although he is being talked up as a threat, and hurdles are being tossed in his path, NO ONE wants the path of Hardcore Holly to lead to the World Title, not even Holly himself. Did you *hear* his promo last week? His delivery was awkward as he stated that he wanted a shot at the title; I didn't buy it. And if you can't sell desire to win the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP, you shouldn't Main Event a Big Four Pay Per View.
2. Vanilla Moveset. Remember when Randy Orton and John Cena debuted? Uninspired ringwork consisting of punches, kicks, clotheslines, and dropkicks? Well Hardcore Holly is the template, possessing limited ability to diversify his moveset, and engage fans in his ringwork. His most "exciting" move is a kick in the balls. And the funny thing is, he had a year to come back completely reinvented, as if he had time to hone his craft. He pulled out a Full Nelson in one of his brawls with Brock, but the way the announcers responded suggested an aberration, not a more shoot-based style that *would* prove exciting to the Smackdown fans. (You would think that the former Tough Enough trainer would be able to sell the expanded moveset, but I saw none of that in his match against the Hosses.) If Holly proves in the coming weeks to be more technically adept in the ring, more in keeping with a "Grizzled ring veteran that has finally let loose" vibe that Benoit carries so well, I'll change direction. But as long as he reminds me of Jindrak and Cade in the squared circle, I'm not digging him.
3. The look of a jobber. Okay, the guy is 41, and is in tremendous shape, but when you are laid off for a year, you can completely reinvent yourself in whatever manner you choose. Undertaker returned as the American Bad Ass. The Rock brought the bald head and the tattoos. Holly WAS enhancement talent, and if he wanted us to not think of him as such, he should've updated his look. New tights, facial hair, a different haircut, a tattoo...any of those would subtly say to fans, "this isn't the same guy from before that you were so apathetic about; he is somebody now." You said he looks like a Bad Ass, but I don't think he looks "bad" at all. He is incredibly southern, and to many fans, a buck-toothed, southern-drawling, mean-spirited older man doesn't inspire fascination or awe. Hardcore Holly kinda seems like a redneck, and not a cool one like Stone Cold.
4. Unsympathetic for a face. He got his neck broken, and now he wants to break Brock's neck. That's cool for a week, but when you think about it, I don't think that's very nice. As a fan, I don't want to root for a guy who wants to nearly kill another wrestler, especially when he has carried on this grudge for over a year. And the rest of his character isn't that awe-inspiring. Holly was at his most over when he was the Big Shot: a small-town rube with an over-inflated sense of self-worth. And that's a heel archetype.
So if you really think that Holly deserves a big push, he needs to turn heel. The SMACKDOWN roster is loaded with people the fans WANT to get behind. The number of non-hoss heels on the roster is small, so if you turned Holly, a 10-year veteran, based on Heyman's promises of success, that is a story that the fans can get into. Hardcore Holly can be sold as a bitter old badass-in-his-own-mind who wants the younger wrestlers and apathetic fans to notice him and respect him. All heels are bred out of a sense of entitlement, and what you seem to be advocating is the same type of entitlement that undergirds a strong heel. So I say, run with it. Push Holly, but not as a face, and not against Brock.
Originally posted by Ta2grrl*...still feeling good about her guy but realising that these kinda forums seem to suck all the fun out of an entertaining show...hmmm...*
Only if you let it. Just give your opinion, let others give theirs, and respect the other person's/people's opinions without letting it affect your own. That's really what this is about, IMHO. Sharing opinions about the various topics that are discussed.
It's cool that you can enjoy Hardcore Holly so much, even if you're the only one (which I'm sure you're not). We've all got our own likes and dislikes. Don't let the opinions of anyone else bother you or affect your enjoyment of the show or particular wrestlers.
Originally posted by madiq He got his neck broken, and now he wants to break Brock's neck. That's cool for a week, but when you think about it, I don't think that's very nice.
This has made my afternoon. Simple, subtle, and hilarious.
Also, you've hit everything on the head. At a MINIMUM, Holly could have updated his look somewhat. As it is, he's the same Hardcore Holly we didn't like before, except now he's back and... well... he's back, so... we should care?
Well, I never DISLIKED Bob Holly, but I just never cared about him that much either.
As a talent, Holly is the equivelent of Tuna Cassarole Night at my mother's house: it's perfectly fine and I'll eat it without complaining, but I would have preferred she cooked 10 other things that aren't tuna cassarole.
Originally posted by Blanket JacksonAs a talent, Holly is the equivelent of Tuna Cassarole Night at my mother's house: it's perfectly fine and I'll eat it without complaining, but I would have preferred she cooked 10 other things that aren't tuna cassarole.
I don't think I've ever heard a more accurate analogy for a professional wrestler.
Triple M, thanks for catching me on my error. My mistake.
Not to beat a quieted horse, but I don't think that it is stupid at all to respect dues. HMD, you are right when you say that they don't necessarily mean a path to success (Rock, Goldberg, Lesnar are good examples). However, doing the shit work does build humility and experience. That is a maxim that applies to any field of employment and performance. It may not be necessary to build the next superstar, but it is, at least in my opinion, a desired trait.
I'm going to have to say that WWE had better take note of the reaction that Hardcore Holly got this past week on Smackdown. The cat's out of the bag, and I don't think the boy's got the Babyface Juice. If they do an injury angle, they can quickly transition Holly out of the Rumble match, setting up a "Confrontation" between Lesnar and Goldberg (which would draw more buyrates than Lesnar-Holly will).
I think that basically they need a stop-gap throwaway opponent to feed to Lesnar for the rumble, after which he can start a serious feud with someone (rumble winner probably) and carry it through to Mania. Since Holly and Brock already have heat because of the broken neck, hardcore fits that bill perfectly imo.
A.) Fans don't give a flying shit about him. There's several on the roster who are WAAAAAAAAY more deserving than he is.
and...
B.) The only reason he's getting a push is because he was a dick in the ring. Unfortunatley, the guy he was a dick to happened to be a guy not willing to take any of Holly's shit, and ended up breaking the guy's neck. I don't think that sends a good message to the rest of the talent ("Sure Booker, your over. But you've also never tried to purposley sabatoge anyone's career/match, so where just gonna' keep you in the opening matches for now, mmkay?").
Of course, if he ends up just being fed to Lesnar, gets killed in the match, and heads over to Velocity, fighting Orlando Jordan in matches that are sure to catch the world on fire, then I guess I'm okay with it.
Amen. If you are going to play badass, make sure that you are badder than the guy you are playing with. Hardcore wasn't.
Its tough to be a bad-ass when the other guy has you upside down, has your life in his hands and there is absolutely nothing you can do if he decides to drop you low...but thanks for coming out
I noticed you failed to include my full original quote, hun. But let me elaborate - during the botched powerbomb, Holly stiffened up so it would be more difficult for Brock to powerbomb him, whereas usually the wrestler will assist on the suplex or whatever power move it is instead of laying loose and forcing the person doing the move to burn more energy. Holly knew what he was doing. Unfortunately, Brock knew it too.
Thanks for coming out. *hands out $1.98 and a lump of carrots*
I've re-read this post, and I have a quick question:
How is Brock dumping Holly on his head because Holly was sandbagging him on a powebomb, purposely trying to show-up Lesnar, any different than Holly kicking the shit out of a kid because he was... um... training (big sin in wrestling, I know)?
Amen. If you are going to play badass, make sure that you are badder than the guy you are playing with. Hardcore wasn't.
Its tough to be a bad-ass when the other guy has you upside down, has your life in his hands and there is absolutely nothing you can do if he decides to drop you low...but thanks for coming out
I noticed you failed to include my full original quote, hun. But let me elaborate - during the botched powerbomb, Holly stiffened up so it would be more difficult for Brock to powerbomb him, whereas usually the wrestler will assist on the suplex or whatever power move it is instead of laying loose and forcing the person doing the move to burn more energy. Holly knew what he was doing. Unfortunately, Brock knew it too.
Thanks for coming out. *hands out $1.98 and a lump of carrots*
Except that a powerbomb is a two-person move. Someone has to really be sandbagging to fuck it up.
There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
Originally posted by OMEGAI've re-read this post, and I have a quick question:
How is Brock dumping Holly on his head because Holly was sandbagging him on a powebomb, purposely trying to show-up Lesnar, any different than Holly kicking the shit out of a kid because he was... um... training (big sin in wrestling, I know)?
I had pointed this out as well but..SURPRISE SURPRISE...nobody has said anything...funny that...and Aldo...I was actually quoting the Yak. I HAD READ your entire post but YOU are making assumptions that perhaps I am not willing to. I would like to hope that neither guy is that much of a prick and that it was an accident because Brock was sick...I have also said already that IF Hardcore had sandbagged it, that he would have deserved what he got for being so arrogant.
I take the time to read what you post mate...maybe you should take the time to read what I post...
*Hands Aldo back his change and some carrot cake...*
Cheers,
Erin
Edit...all these darn quotes are throwing me...lol...
(edited by Ta2grrl on 3.1.04 0824) Omen Tattoo's Vancouver BC Canada
Let's face it, Hardcore Holly won't win or linger as a main-eventer because he simply isn't believable as a champion.
The guy has spend a decade lingering in midcard to varying levels of success, he has never had that special something to propel him beyond that.
Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of his, I like him in the ring as a decent wrestler, I even like some of his promo work as he can be funny in that "Lance Storm" kind of way, He was on occasion hilarious with Crash as a sidekick.
No i'm afraid Holly missed his chance at real success, it came a few years back before he broke his arm. He was up there as a legitimate IC title challenger back when that meant you were the best of the midcard. The injury came right before he had the chance to challenge for it properly. Had he been able to take that chance he would have had a shot at perhpas going higher. But fate struck, then the influx of WCW and ECW talent pushed him further down the card and it was gone.
Personally I think his best bet after this feud is to become the nearly man, go after the US title but fail (like Tommy Dreamer with the ECW belt) until he finally achieves his goal and wins it before retiring.
He is never was going to climb to the top and was never there in the first place. But then not everyone can be and it makes him none the less as a wrestler or person in my opinion.
This current angle is just reward for coming back from a broken neck after all these years, plus reward for his effort on tough enough. At least WWE didn't expect us to forget about the incident where he got injured this time. It always bothered me that he never went after Angle properly after the arm, that might have gotten him ove huge then but today there are too many better and younger wrestlers out there.
At least AJ has a toy title now. I find the Joe booking utterly mindblowing. It's Booker-is-GI-Bro bad. How in God's name do they pay it off? If Steiner shows up fine, then Joe's all talk and no trousers.