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The W - Baseball - Hall of Fame (Page 3)
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squiz
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Since: 5.1.02
From: Dover, NH

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#41 Posted on
Stats for the pitcher(s) to answer your question (I also included Morris's stats for comparison):

Bert Blyleven: 287-250, 3.31 ERA, 3701 K (22 seasons)
Jack Morris: 254-186, 3.90 ERA, 2478 K (18 seasons)





"You can see a million miles tonight, but you can't get very far."
- Adam Duritz
Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 148 days
Last activity: 142 days
#42 Posted on

Originally posted by cfgb
I was actually going to compare him to Cal Ripken initially, but realized by doing so it would be counter productive to my argument that Murray SHOULDN'T be in - seeing as how Cal is more or less a lock.

Cal's defence was good - great depending on the year. Murray doesn't have that added benefit. On top of that, Cal the letters MVP next to his name, as well as that streak. Murray was a poor man's Cal Ripken who required someone to catch the ball for him.

Harold Baines is a GREAT guy to place Murray in the same category with. A good player year in and year out who's great to have plugged in to the middle of your lineup and will NEVER be noticed.

And as blasphemous as this is gonna sound, I find Baines to be the better hitter of the two.

I'll end with this... If we let Eddie Murray into the hall of fame, where do we stop? Fred McGriff will clearly deserve a pass. After all, he has good career numbers AND he played first to boot! What about Albert Belle? And even Harold Baines...

Hall Of Fame is a touchy subject. Especially considering we're on the cusp of entering the era of inflated batting stats, and different numbers for the pitchers.




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Um, I like Baines and all, but there was no way on earth he was as productive a hitter as Murray.

Murray 12 90+ RBI years, Baines 6
Murray 3 100+ RUN SCORED years, Baines 0

Hell, Murray even finished with over 100 SB....
Add in his switch hitting, and they aren't even on the same planet.



***Optioned to Pawtucket (IL), April 6***

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Since: 11.12.01
From: China, Maine

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Y!:
#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.21
Eddie Murray is in. Hall of Famer.

Eddie's right - like he almost always is!



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Since: 2.1.02
From: Oconomowoc, WI

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#44 Posted on
Paul Molitor - yes or no? I personally think he's a lock, and the first DH.



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cfgb
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Ottawa, Ontario

Since last post: 13 days
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#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.87
Molitor has 3000 hits - but aside from that did he do much noteworthy?

I'm serious. I only got to start watching Molitor seriously after he arrived in Toronto - and I've never really followed the man's career closely at all.




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BigDaddyLoco
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Since: 2.1.02

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#46 Posted on
I don't know about Moliter. He's got some rings and Edgar doesn't yet. I know Edgar has two batting titles, but I also think that Moliter has a few. Anyone got overall stats on these guys? I know Moliter was definetly padding his numbers for the last couple of years (3-5 years?).
I don't think Edgar will do that partly b/c he isn't likely to reach 3000 hits do to injury, he's missed at least a total of two seasons, also I think he's pretty much just in it now for a title. So as long as he is helping the Mariners and they stay competitive, he'll play. I don't think he will float from team to team. It'll be interesting to see who is the first DH inducted.
squiz
Salami








Since: 5.1.02
From: Dover, NH

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#47 Posted on
I seem to be turning into the official stats provider on this board, but at least it makes my purchase of Total Baseball worthwhile, so here goes:

Paul Molitor:

.306 BA, 234 HR, 1307 RBI, 3319 H, 1782 R, .372 OBP, .448 SLUG, 504 SB. Also 605 2B which is 10th best for a career. Also ranks 9th for total hits and 16th in runs scored.

Led league in hits 3 times (91, 93, 96), runs 3 times (82, 87, 91), 2B once (87), 3B once (91). Never led the league in hitting, but did hit over .300 in 12 seasons, 4 times over .330 (high of .353 in 1987), and finished second in 1993.

DH 1174 games, 3B-791, also 400 games at 2B.

Played 21 years.

All-Star selection 7 times, but only played in 6 (injured in 1981). World Series MVP of 1993.

Edgar Martinez:

.319 BA, 258 HR, 1041 RBI, 1882 H, 1060 R, .425 OBP, .530 SLUG, 47 SB, 444 2B.

Led league in runs in 1995, 2B twice (92 and 95), average twice (92 and 95), OBP 3 times (95, 98 and 99). Has hit over .300 in 10 of the last 12 years. (in 93 and 94, the two years he didn't hit .300, he was injured and did not play complete seasons)

All-Star selection 6 times.

1059 games as DH, 563 games at 3B.

Has played 15 seasons so far.




"You can see a million miles tonight, but you can't get very far."
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BigDaddyLoco
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Since: 2.1.02

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#48 Posted on
Thanks once again for the stats, squiz!

That actually made the choice harder for me. It's really a tough call, and I guess it's really up to baseball on whether they want a pure DH in the Hall or not.

(edited by BigDaddyLoco on 16.1.02 1639)
The Masked Hungarian
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Since: 23.1.02
From: Staten Island NY USA

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#49 Posted on
Molitor is an easy in for me along with Murray. I don't think Edgar is in because he doesn't even have 2000 hits! My man Keith Hernandez had I believe around 2100 and was the King of First Base but I don't anticipate his induction. I definitely think its an injustice Gary Carter isn't in.

As for pitching, Jack Morris was the best pitcher of the 80s and was the guy who you wanted on the mound in a big game. He was part of that dominant 84 Tigers team and of course there is Game 7 91 on his resume. Plus he won 21 for Toronto and a world series late in his career. In my opinion that's what a hall of famer is. Bert Blyleven was never a big game pitcher. In fact I think he is very similar to Don Sutton. You pitch 20 years you're going to accumulate stats. Don was lucky enough to crack 300 while Bert wasn't. I'm curious to know if he ever placed top 5 in the Cy Young. Oh yeah, how is Goose Gossage NOT in the hall of fame yet????
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#50 Posted on
Edgar is 118 hits short. He's a DH. He will make 2000 hits this season.

Give him 4 more years at 130 hits a year, and he's at 2500. I think he'll get there. He's a DH! He isn't known for his speed - they already compensate for it!

Gah.

Ok, maybe he's got 2 seasons left. He is pretty old.



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Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 148 days
Last activity: 142 days
#51 Posted on

Originally posted by The Masked Hungarian
Molitor is an easy in for me along with Murray. I don't think Edgar is in because he doesn't even have 2000 hits! My man Keith Hernandez had I believe around 2100 and was the King of First Base but I don't anticipate his induction. I definitely think its an injustice Gary Carter isn't in.




Hernandez: 1124 R, 2182 H, 1071 RBA lifetime
Martinez: 1060 R, 1882 H, 1041 RBI lifetime

Pretty similar production numbers despite Edgar having 300 less hits....that makes EM more productive overall. Also, EM has thirty batting average points lifetime over KH, if that floats your boat.



***Outrighted to Reading (IL), April 10***

The Masked Hungarian
Pickled pork








Since: 23.1.02
From: Staten Island NY USA

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#52 Posted on
Lets say Edgar plays 2 more years, adding 300 hits and 200 RBIs to the resume. Those numbers are NOT Hall of Fame numbers. He was a good hitter, but not a great one. Edgar Martinez never dominated his team. It was always Griffey's or ARod's, or Ichiro. Edgar never won an MVP. If a full time DH makes the Hall of Fame, I think he HAS to have the magical numbers, ie. 3000 or 500. Anything short of that and I can't justify it. Playing less than half a game extends the career by at least five years. That should lead to dominant numbers.

Now again, I'm not arguing Keith Hernandez for the hall of fame. But comparing the stats and then adding in the best defensive first baseman argument and I think Keith is a better candidate.

In my opinion a Hall of Famer is a player you don't have to think about electing. It is about electing elite players, not very good players. If a player is a borderline candidate I don't think he should get in because that simply lowers the standards for the next class.


(edited by The Masked Hungarian on 26.1.02 0147)
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#53 Posted on
My thought is that if Baseball looks at the DH as a legitimate position, then there should be people in the hall that represent that position.

If you break the argument down to who were some of the best DH ever, wouldn't Edgar be near the top of almost every list?

If the DH is supposed to just be an afterthought so old guys with bad knees can get more AB to fill out their numbers, then I guess you never let one in the hall. Personally, I think if you put one in, you put in Edgar.



I love it when a plan comes together
The Masked Hungarian
Pickled pork








Since: 23.1.02
From: Staten Island NY USA

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#54 Posted on
This is my DH prejudice coming out in full force! I cannot compare the stats with someone who plays 150 + games every year to someone who plays half a game for an entire season. The last time he played over 100 games at 3B was 1992. So he's had ten years of avoiding wear and tear by playing defense. Those stats should look a lot better in my opinion. If he played 3B up until say 1999, then I would have no problems. But he hasn't. If he does make it I hope he at least has to wait a couple of years.
squiz
Salami








Since: 5.1.02
From: Dover, NH

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#55 Posted on
Originally posted by The Masked Hungarian
Bert Blyleven was never a big game pitcher. In fact I think he is very similar to Don Sutton. You pitch 20 years you're going to accumulate stats. Don was lucky enough to crack 300 while Bert wasn't. I'm curious to know if he ever placed top 5 in the Cy Young. Oh yeah, how is Goose Gossage NOT in the hall of fame yet????



Blyleven placed in the top 5 for the Cy Young Award 3 times, all after he was 33: 1984, 1985, 1989 (when he was 38 years old!).




"You can see a million miles tonight, but you can't get very far."
- Adam Duritz
BigDaddyLoco
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Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 8 hours
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#56 Posted on

So he's had ten years of avoiding wear and tear by playing defense. Those stats should look a lot better in my opinion. If he played 3B up until say 1999, then I would have no problems. But he hasn't. If he does make it I hope he at least has to wait a couple of years.


He's one of the most fragile guys I've ever seen, but the fact is with a swing like his should have a place in baseball and that place is DH. Not to many right handed hitters have won two batting titles and his play in the '95 playoffs against the Yankees was amazing.


Lets say Edgar plays 2 more years, adding 300 hits and 200 RBIs to the resume. Those numbers are NOT Hall of Fame numbers. He was a good hitter, but not a great one. Edgar Martinez never dominated his team. It was always Griffey's or ARod's, or Ichiro. Edgar never won an MVP. If a full time DH makes the Hall of Fame, I think he HAS to have the magical numbers, ie. 3000 or 500. Anything short of that and I can't justify it. Playing less than half a game extends the career by at least five years. That should lead to dominant numbers.


He has quietly made those guys better. Even when the lineup was loaded with Griffey, A-Rod and Jay Buhner whenever Edgar went down the whole line up fell apart. If Edgar Martinez played his career in New York, Boston or another major market he would be a household name.
The Masked Hungarian
Pickled pork








Since: 23.1.02
From: Staten Island NY USA

Since last post: 3203 days
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#57 Posted on
My whole argument is based upon the fact that if you are going to DH for a career, your stats should be tremendous. I want 3000 hits or at least 2700. I want 500 home runs. The fact that he didn't play defense at all hurts his status, therefore the numbers should be beyond reproach. Edgar doesn't have that right now. Great player, but so was Jim Rice.
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The first few months of the season count in the standings too, ya know. One could also argue that Howard played like ass for three months and nearly cost the Phillies a playoff spot.
- Joseph Ryder, Post-season awards (2008)
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