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The W - Baseball - Hall of Fame Veterans' Committee Vote
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pieman
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Since: 11.12.01
From: China, Maine

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.30


Click Here (mlb.mlb.com)


It's hard to believe that Ron Santo is still not in the Hall as he falls five votes short.

They also didn't vote in Marvin Miller.

It's ridiculous that at least those two are not in.

(edited by pieman on 27.2.07 1434)






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Sec19Row53
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Oconomowoc, WI

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.11
This might literally kill Santo. And Inigo, I *do* think the word means that ;-)

The fact that they didn't put in Buck O'Neill last time, added to the fact that the Veterans Committee has now gone 3 straight votes without putting someone in the Hall(and NEVER under this configuration), shows that this set up is broken.
Mr. Boffo
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Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
I've heard that there are certain people on the veterans' committee (a quick google search lists Tom Seaver and Joe Morgan, for example) who refuse to admit anyone. If this is true, these people need to be expelled from voting.




Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.90

There have yet to be words invented that can fully express my anger at this situation.



As of 2/28/05: 101 pounds since December 7, 2004
OFFICIAL THREE-MONTH COUNT: 112 pounds on March 9, 2005
OFFICIAL SIX-MONTH COUNT: 142 pounds on June 8, 2005
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As of 2/27/06: 202 pounds "I've lost a heavyweight"
As of 7/31/06: 224 pounds
Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.10
Miller should be in, but I don't really have a problem with the panel's logic here. The Hall should, if anything, be more elite than it is --- it SHOULD be difficult to get elected, unless you're a no-brainer inductee like Gwynn or Ripken were this year.



I don't know what is more disquieting -- the fact that the rest of the statue is missing, or that it has four toes.
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Since: 13.2.03
From: Chicago

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.09
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
    I've heard that there are certain people on the veterans' committee (a quick google search lists Tom Seaver and Joe Morgan, for example) who refuse to admit anyone. If this is true, these people need to be expelled from voting.


I'm pretty sure that Joe Morgan's vision of the Hall of Fame has one, and only one plaque on the wall.


The old Veterans Committee (rightfully) got tossed because it turned out there were a few ringleaders who played politics to get some borderline buddies in the back door. But it seems apparent that it will be next to impossible for anyone to make it past 75% of that group of egos.

Father of Sabermetrics Bill James has Santo as his "best player not in the HoF". He has more homers than all but 2 of the third basemen currently in the Hall, and that despite playing in the most defensive era since the dead ball, and having his career end at age 34. His defense was comparable to Brooks Robinson, and 3b is the least represented position in the Hall.

The argument against him is that there are already 3 members of those Cubs teams in the Hall (Banks, Williams and Jenkins) - a group which never won a pennant, much less a World Series. (Four if you count Leo Durocher, who went in posthumously in 1994, but I think it's safe to say his work in Chicago really didn't put him over the top - heh.)

Hopefully it's three strikes and out for this voting configuration.



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BigDaddyLoco
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Since: 2.1.02

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.84
The next vote isn't for awhile either, so now would be a good time to scrap this. I'm not sure what system is going to work though.
wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
Joe Morgan did an interview after the votes were released saying he didn't think he was qualified to be voting on non-players. So I guess that means he won't vote for any.

Ok then.
hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.33
    Originally posted by TheOldMan
    I'm pretty sure that Joe Morgan's vision of the Hall of Fame has one, and only one plaque on the wall.

Dave Concepcion?



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spf
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
Why should the Veteran's Committee be electing people on a regular basis? Especially when it comes to players, guys who already had fifteen years on the ballot, and repeated votes by various configurations of Veteran's Committees, and have been rejected every time? The point of the VC is to handle egregious errors or if something totally new comes out, not to be there to perk up old players who didn't get in the first 18 or 20 times they were up for induction.

There's always going to be someone who is the "best player not in the Hall of Fame" and right now that seems to be Santo or Hodges or Kaat. If those three get in then it will be Wills and Minoso.

And looking at the standard of 3B who were voted in by the writers, as opposed to either Negro League choices (where the stat lines can't really be compared) or V.C. choices (where there is no discernible standard at all), Santo doesn't really compare. That list consists of Boggs, Brett, Mathews, Robinson, Schmidt, Traynor. There's not a single one of those players that Santo scores as well as in the HOF Monitor or HOF Standards scoring metric. So no, just because some old cranks in the 60's decided that everyone who ever played with Frankie Frisch should be in the HOF, to me that doesn't mean we should continue to make those errors with the benefit of hindsight.

Ron Santo was a very good player. But to me, he was that one notch below the HOF, right along with a lot of other very good players.

Besides, there's always the chance he'll get in as an announcer ;)



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pieman
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Since: 11.12.01
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.30


    Originally posted by spf
    Ron Santo was a very good player. But to me, he was that one notch below the HOF, right along with a lot of other very good players.

Ron Santo was as good as Brooks Robinson.

From Jay Jaffe of Baseball Prospectus, who has a pretty nice system for evaluating HOF credentials:

"The problem is that it appears that Santo's case is more about the politics of gaining entry than it is about the player's accomplishments. Many of Santo's peers apparently didn't like the guy, felt he showed them up with the heel-clicking thing, and don't like that he's campaigned for the honor of being elected. This is a player who as a hitter rates the 23rd-best peak of all-time, and the 47th-best overall according to JAWS. It's just unconscionable that he's not in."

I think it's pretty clear that Ron Santo is a HOFer.








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Java
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Chandler, AZ

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.51
I am also outraged that Santo is not in. One thing I keep hearing (at least on talk radio in Phoenix) is that his numbers were a little light (homers, etc). Please remember the prime of his career was in the 60's, the high point of pitching dominance. Hell, Yaz won a batting title with a .301 average. When the numbers are compared with perspective to the players from his own era, this becomes a no-brainer.

As far as SPF s point that there will always be a "best man not in the hall of fame," I agree. The old Veteran's committee screwed up the standards so badly that any number of players can be compared to the bottom of the barrel and look good.

I would advocate the levels of the Hall of Fame (I think Bill James first proposed it, but I may be wrong). Each echelon has a certain number of players, say 25. The top level is Babe Ruth, Cy Young, etc. The 2nd level is the next 25 players, and so on. When a player is inducted, if the committee wants to put him in the top tier, someone must be bumped down, etc. This would certainly be more entertaining and stir more debate.

jfkfc
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Since: 9.2.02

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.76
    Originally posted by Java
    I would advocate the levels of the Hall of Fame (I think Bill James first proposed it, but I may be wrong). Each echelon has a certain number of players, say 25. The top level is Babe Ruth, Cy Young, etc. The 2nd level is the next 25 players, and so on. When a player is inducted, if the committee wants to put him in the top tier, someone must be bumped down, etc. This would certainly be more entertaining and stir more debate.
Bill Simmons (proxy.espn.go.com)
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by Java
    I am also outraged that Santo is not in. One thing I keep hearing (at least on talk radio in Phoenix) is that his numbers were a little light (homers, etc). Please remember the prime of his career was in the 60's, the high point of pitching dominance. Hell, Yaz won a batting title with a .301 average. When the numbers are compared with perspective to the players from his own era, this becomes a no-brainer.

Not so much.

One of the things I like to look at on baseball-reference.com are the Similarity Scores for a player. And while, yes it is hard to compare across eras, one thing I've found, even for players who were in the 60's and 70's, is that the HOF players tend to almost always have other HOF players as their ten most similar. For instance:

Harmon Killibrew (6 HOF's and 1-3 likely HOF's):
Willie McCovey (877) *
Sammy Sosa (854)
Mike Schmidt (848) *
Eddie Mathews (825) *
Willie Stargell (816) *
Fred McGriff (809)
Ken Griffey (807)
Mickey Mantle (806) *
Reggie Jackson (795) *
Darrell Evans (783)

Willie McCovey (5 HOF's and 3-4 likely HOF's):
Fred McGriff (889)
Willie Stargell (883) *
Harmon Killebrew (877) *
Eddie Mathews (855) *
Mike Schmidt (839) *
Sammy Sosa (838)
Jose Canseco (826)
Jeff Bagwell (813)
Frank Thomas (813)
Mickey Mantle (810) *

Carl Yaztrzemski (8 HOFers)
Dave Winfield (852) *
Eddie Murray (833) *
Stan Musial (763) *
Rafael Palmeiro (762)
Al Kaline (761) *
Frank Robinson (747) *
Mel Ott (745) *
Cal Ripken (741) *
Harold Baines (710)
George Brett (702) *

And then there's Santo:
Dale Murphy (875)
Ken Boyer (875)
Gary Gaetti (875)
Bobby Bonilla (868)
Brian Downing (866)
Graig Nettles (861)
Ruben Sierra (860)
Chili Davis (856)
Luis Gonzalez (855)
Robin Ventura (854)



I'm going bald to help kids with cancer! (stbaldricks.org)
Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 280 days
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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.89

Bill Mazeroski most similar players:

Frank White (911)
Leo Cardenas (870)
Bill Russell (869)
Chris Speier (869)
Jim Fregosi (868)
Tony Taylor (865)
Royce Clayton (861)
Phil Garner (855)
Terry Pendleton (852)
Garry Templeton (851)

Rick Ferrell most similar players:

Deacon McGuire (901)
Tony Pena (885)
Al Lopez (883) *
Luke Sewell (879)
Wally Schang (869)
Jimmie Wilson (866)
Jim Sundberg (857)
Jason Kendall (850)
Rollie Hemsley (849)
Wilbert Robinson (848)

Using BFW as a yardstick, Santo was the best player in baseball in 1964, 1966 and 1967, and second in 1965. Beating many many HoFers. Santo was the best third baseman of his time and should be in.

(edited by Eddie Famous on 28.2.07 1514)


As of 2/28/05: 101 pounds since December 7, 2004
OFFICIAL THREE-MONTH COUNT: 112 pounds on March 9, 2005
OFFICIAL SIX-MONTH COUNT: 142 pounds on June 8, 2005
OFFICIAL ONE YEAR COUNT: 187 pounds on December 7, 2005
As of 2/27/06: 202 pounds "I've lost a heavyweight"
As of 7/31/06: 224 pounds
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spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    Bill Mazeroski most similar players:

    Frank White (911)
    Leo Cardenas (870)
    Bill Russell (869)
    Chris Speier (869)
    Jim Fregosi (868)
    Tony Taylor (865)
    Royce Clayton (861)
    Phil Garner (855)
    Terry Pendleton (852)
    Garry Templeton (851)

    Rick Ferrell most similar players:

    Deacon McGuire (901)
    Tony Pena (885)
    Al Lopez (883) *
    Luke Sewell (879)
    Wally Schang (869)
    Jimmie Wilson (866)
    Jim Sundberg (857)
    Jason Kendall (850)
    Rollie Hemsley (849)
    Wilbert Robinson (848)

    Using BFW as a yardstick, Santo was the best player in baseball in 1964, 1966 and 1967, and second in 1965. Beating many many HoFers. Santo was the best third baseman of his time and should be in.

    (edited by Eddie Famous on 28.2.07 1514)

The problem with those comparisons is:
1. Mazeroski is generally considered the best defensive player at his position ever.

2.. Rick Ferrell is often referred to as one of the most undeserving HOF inductions ever. If we're going to use him as the standard, then Cooperstown will need an expansion wing or three, because suddenly you're letting in pretty much every half-decent player who has ever put on a pair of spikes. I mean, I'm happy to use that standard, since then we're certainly letting in Harold Baines, Robin Ventura, Tom Paciorek, and a whole lot of other guys I liked growing up who otherwise have no right being in the Hall. Just don't blame me when we're watching Darren Jackson's induction ceremony.

There are a lot of people in the HOF who shouldn't be there. That doesn't mean that we should consider them as the yardstick. Those people are best considered aberrations that we know happened but try to forget about as quickly as possible.

The idea of him being the best player in baseball at any given point seems to be countered by the fact he never placed higher than 4th (and then only the once) in the MVP voting. But even assuming that you're right...that still doesn't convince me. Don Mattingly was one of the best players in baseball for a few years. Dick Allen was probably the best player in baseball for a couple of different years. But I wouldn't want to see either of them in the HOF.



I'm going bald to help kids with cancer! (stbaldricks.org)
Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 280 days
Last activity: 273 days
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.89

    Originally posted by spf
    But even assuming that you're right...that still doesn't convince me. Don Mattingly was one of the best players in baseball for a few years. Dick Allen was probably the best player in baseball for a couple of different years. But I wouldn't want to see either of them in the HOF.


Don Mattingly never had the highest BFW in any major league season, Dick Allen did, in 1972 with a great year despite having one of the worst managers in baseball history.
Even at that, Allen was a rotten fielder.

If you can name another former major leaguer who was as dominant BFW-wise over a four year period NOT in the HoF, congrats.

Another thing to remember in Santo's case is how his career was surely shortened by diabetes (combined with the idiocy of the 1974 White Sox). To have the career he did, during the times he played, is simply awesome.




As of 2/28/05: 101 pounds since December 7, 2004
OFFICIAL THREE-MONTH COUNT: 112 pounds on March 9, 2005
OFFICIAL SIX-MONTH COUNT: 142 pounds on June 8, 2005
OFFICIAL ONE YEAR COUNT: 187 pounds on December 7, 2005
As of 2/27/06: 202 pounds "I've lost a heavyweight"
As of 7/31/06: 224 pounds
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