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The W - Baseball - Hall of Fame Time Again (Page 3)
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thecubsfan
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Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

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#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
I was looking for this earlier: 1996 is the last year no one got into the HOF.

BigVitoMark: I don't know if you're noticed, but between this thread and the other one, you've mentioned three times today how you hate people getting in besides on the first ballot. I just wanted to make sure you knew I've noticed!

Metaphor for fun - driving in a car, following directions, I turn right, and then realize I should not have done that. Your viewpoint seems to be that I should not make an adjustment, because I thought I was correct at the time.

People not voting for someone in their first or second year because they're making abstract and imaginary distinctions about those being greater honors are dumb. (They ought to just make the Sports Guy's pyrmaid and everyone can be happy.)

Sometimes it takes while for people to baseball writers to figure things out. As long as they have a reason why they're changing their votes, I've got no problem with it.

Gammons: Not sure what's up with Peter's vote - I thought it was strange too, but didn't have time to look into it when I noticed.

There's an article from last year, where Gammons specifically mentions having a ballot (in regards to Pete Rose.)

BaseballPrimer's discussion on the ESPN ballott is surprisingly without answers, but does suggest that perhaps Gammons recently recieving the Spink Award (BBWAA lifetime award; considering 'being in the Baseball HOF', though not the same thing as what Boggs and Sandberg got today) moves him from a general BBWAA elector (responible for this election) to a Veteran's Committe elector.

Is Gammons still writing for the Globe? Perhaps he's not eligible to vote because he's been without a paper gig for too long.



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Since: 12.1.02
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#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.04
    Originally posted by thecubsfan
    Is Gammons still writing for the Globe? Perhaps he's not eligible to vote because he's been without a paper gig for too long.


I think I remember seeing something about this at some point last year.



BigVitoMark
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Since: 10.8.02
From: Queen's University, Canada

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#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.81
The closer qualifications are going to be tough to define. Because it's a relatively new stat, a lot of guys who are among the all time leaders are far from Hall of Fame calibre. Roberto Hernandez? Jose Mesa? Not even close. Of the guys near the top of the all time list, I put Rivera in based on his postseason achievements. Troy Percival, we'll see where he is when he's done. Trevor Hoffman, same thing, he's close. But otherwise, these guys need to be something really special to make the cut.

Eckersley averaged over 30 saves a season when he was a reliever, played in a number of AS games, won a Cy Young and an MVP award (first reliever to ever do that). He also won nearly two hundred games, including a 20-win season and a no hitter. That's two pretty damn good careers for one guy, and doesn't even consider his K:BB ratio, which was 10-20 to 1 at his peak, or the fact that he was utterly dominant during his A's run.

Gossage averaged under 15 saves a season as a reliever through his career. Give Eck that over his years as a starter and he's got 570, a record that probably never comes down. Lee Smith is at least the all time leader. If he's not in (and I'm not saying he should be in) Gossage isn't in either. Hall of Fame, not Hall of Quite Good.

CubsFan: Didn't realize the redundancy was getting out of hand. Sorry. I'll try to retort without making the same point. To your metaphor, sure, go back and make the right turn. You know conclusively that you went the wrong direction, because there's no interpretation to be made. In this case, 'good enough' is being determined by opinion, there is not a definitive mathematical formula for right and wrong. What I am saying is that if a guy is getting in or not depending on the way the wind is blowing in a given year, he should not be in. If you have to make an argument for the guy, he should not be in. Basically, unless a guy is an obvious choice, he should not be in.

(edited by BigVitoMark on 4.1.05 1528)


Screw Ricky
BigSteve
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Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

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#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.83
    Originally posted by thecubsfan
    (They ought to just make the Sports Guy's pyramid and everyone can be happy.)


Yes, they should. They absolutely need to do that. My head is gonna explode if I keep thinking about what a great idea that is.

    Originally posted by BWT
    Over at ESPN.com they had who each writer voted for. . .


Where is that? I couldn't find it.
CRZ
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#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.02
    Originally posted by BigSteve
    My head is gonna explode if I keep thinking about what a great idea that is.
Promises, promises.



CRZ
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Since: 2.1.02

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#46 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.30
First ballot, fifteenth ballot really doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. Both of these guys will look good in the Hall years from now, and that really is what matters in the end.

I really hope more voters come around on Sutter and Gossage. They were both the cream of the crop for closers of that era and that means more to me than Lee Smith's gaudy save totals.

It's strange to think that Strawberry is one and done. Sure he just doesn't have the numbers, but try telling someone that he would fall from grace so badly back in the day.

As far as starters I'd really like to see the Jack Morris train pick up more speed. The ERA might be high, but that guy was an Ace in every sense of the word and I'm not sure if there was anyone I'd rather have me go out in the 80's when you needed the big win.

Next year we get Orel Hershiser, Will Clark and Dwight Gooden.


(edited by BigDaddyLoco on 4.1.05 2339)
Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.37
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    Next year we get Orel Hershiser, Will Clark and Dwight Gooden


That's easy: nope, nope and nope. Bring on 2007!



I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you? One last thing: while you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tight-Ass Club, in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits." --- President Jed Bartlett, The West Wing
thecubsfan
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Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

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#48 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
On that note:

First stump column of the 2006 election is for...Albert Belle! (chitrib, may need login)

Is Belle actually eligible? He stopped playing long before the O's retired him because of insurance issues, and the BHOF site doens't list Albert for that or any other year.



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Since: 10.1.03
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#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.67
As much as I'd like to see him in; for the obvious reasons, Belle hasn't a snowballs chance in hell of getting in.
jfkfc
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Since: 9.2.02

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#50 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.09
    Originally posted by thecubsfan
    On that note:

    First stump column of the 2006 election is for...Albert Belle! (chitrib, may need login)

    Is Belle actually eligible? He stopped playing long before the O's retired him because of insurance issues, and the BHOF site doens't list Albert for that or any other year.
Technically, his last game was 10/1/00, so it would be five years...I don't think there is any stipulation about continuing salary.

I was having a friendly debate at work a few months ago about Belle. Look at his stats (baseball-reference.com) and check out his 162 game averages:

Runs: 103
Hits: 182
2B: 41
HR: 40
RBI: 130
Avg: .295
Slg: .564
TB: 347

Not bad at all. Not counting the strike year, he played in over 140 games every year except '91, so until the end, he was generally healthy. Put those averages up for 4 more years (he turned 33 in 2000), and there probably would be NO debate. IMO, he was a guy I looked at as one of the games elite sluggers for most of his career. Not a guy I would show my son as a hero to emulate behavior-wise, but probably nothing done to keep him out.



A lot of people don't realize what's really going on. They view life as a bunch of unconnected incidents and things. They don't realize that there's this, like, lattice of coincidence that lays on top of everything. Give you an example, show you what I mean: suppose you're thinkin' about a plate o' shrimp. Suddenly someone'll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o' shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin' for one, either. It's all part of a cosmic unconciousness.
pieman
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Since: 11.12.01
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#51 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.74

I don't think Belle is eligible yet because he resided on the disabled list for a couple of years for insurance purposes. He actually would be an interesting case, much like Jim Rice. They both were the dominant power hitter of their day, but overshadowed by poor human relations skills.

It is nice to see Sandberg get in, but when will these voters see the truth about Bert Blyleven!!






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Freeway
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Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

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#52 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.94
Looking ahead, there's no overwhelming contenders for 2006. 2007 has one shoo-in (Cal Ripken Jr.) and a few guys who'll be contenders in Tony Gwynn, Jose Canseco & Mark McGwire. Only question will be about how much Canseco's behavior and McGwire's questionable chemical-enhancement status will play into the voting. 2009 has Mark Grace & Rickey Henderson.



"Illusions, Michael. A trick is something a whore does for money...or candy!" - G.O.B. Bluth, Arrested Development

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Since: 12.1.02
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#53 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.04
Ripken, Gwynn, and McGwire are all locks for induction in 2007. Jose Canseco does not have a shot in hell. Henderson will get in, no doubt in '09, without any questions. I'm curious to see how many people DON'T vote for Rickey.

(edited by Whitebacon on 5.1.05 1452)


BWT
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Since: 27.1.04
From: Philly

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#54 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.31
    Originally posted by Freeway420
    Looking ahead, there's no overwhelming contenders for 2006. 2007 has one shoo-in (Cal Ripken Jr.) and a few guys who'll be contenders in Tony Gwynn, Jose Canseco & Mark McGwire. Only question will be about how much Canseco's behavior and McGwire's questionable chemical-enhancement status will play into the voting. 2009 has Mark Grace & Rickey Henderson.


McGwire and Gwynn are definitely going to be first ballot guys there's just no debate about either one.
BigVitoMark
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Since: 10.8.02
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#55 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.80
    Originally posted by Freeway420
    Only question will be about how much Canseco's behavior and McGwire's questionable chemical-enhancement status will play into the voting.


McGwire broke no rule and no law. What he did was as legal as popping a couple Vitamin C when you wake up in the morning. Despite years of injury problems he still retired at fifth in all time home runs, he broke 50 four times, and is the rightful holder of the single season record. There's no debate to be had, Mac is a Hall of Famer on the first ballot.



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jfkfc
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Since: 9.2.02

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#56 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.09
    Originally posted by pieman
    I don't think Belle is eligible yet because he resided on the disabled list for a couple of years for insurance purposes. He actually would be an interesting case, much like Jim Rice. They both were the dominant power hitter of their day, but overshadowed by poor human relations skills.
To quote the HOF (baseballhalloffame.org), a guy would have to be "inactive as a player" for 5 years, which Belle was. I would guess that his DL time counts as being "inactive as a player".
    Originally posted by pieman
    It is nice to see Sandberg get in, but when will these voters see the truth about Bert Blyleven!!
I liked Bill Simmons' quote (sports.espn.go.com) about Bert: "I can't remember coming home from school and having my father say to me, 'Let's go to Fenway and scalp tickets -- Bert Blyleven's in town!'" I really think he gets in only if the writers start thinking about why they voted in Sutton and Niekro, as I have opined way too often already in this thread. What I would like to read is how guys get nominated. There are new guys on there every year that I cannot fathom for the LIFE of me how they even get on the ballot. Steinbach? Langston? Nixon? Hell, why not throw Matt Nokes on there?



A lot of people don't realize what's really going on. They view life as a bunch of unconnected incidents and things. They don't realize that there's this, like, lattice of coincidence that lays on top of everything. Give you an example, show you what I mean: suppose you're thinkin' about a plate o' shrimp. Suddenly someone'll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o' shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin' for one, either. It's all part of a cosmic unconciousness.
spf
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#57 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.41
    Originally posted by jfkfc
    What I would like to read is how guys get nominated. There are new guys on there every year that I cannot fathom for the LIFE of me how they even get on the ballot. Steinbach? Langston? Nixon? Hell, why not throw Matt Nokes on there?

You link to the answer you are looking for. From the HOF site:

    Originally posted by HOF
    3. Eligible Candidates Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

    1. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
    2. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
    3. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.
    4. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.
    5. Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.


So it's not an honor to be on the list. I just wonder what the protocol would be for someone who didn't play 10 years. Say for instance a guy comes up, has 9 50 HR seasons, and dies in a plane wreck. Would that person be eligible still?



pieman
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Since: 11.12.01
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#58 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.74


    Originally posted by jfkfc
      Originally posted by thecubsfan
      On that note:

      First stump column of the 2006 election is for...Albert Belle! (chitrib, may need login)

      Is Belle actually eligible? He stopped playing long before the O's retired him because of insurance issues, and the BHOF site doens't list Albert for that or any other year.
    Technically, his last game was 10/1/00, so it would be five years...I don't think there is any stipulation about continuing salary.

Click Here (sports.espn.go.com)

According to this ESPN article from exactly one year ago, it states that Albert Belle will be on the ballot in 2006. Maybe something changed between then and now, but it appears that he should be on the ballot next year.

(edited by pieman on 6.1.05 0900)



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StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#59 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.47
Conseco, what a sad story. For a three or four year period, he was the best player in baseball. Injuries, cocaine, Madonna, guns in Ferraris, homers off his head, and massive strike outs will cloud the fact that he was THE MAN for a few seasons there.

McGuire gets in first time, no questions asked, besides being a slugger of historic proportions, he was a generally well liked guy, and walked away when he could have easily went to the AL, been a DH and be sitting at 800 homers right now.

Gwynn is, along with Boggs, tied for the best pure hitters of my lifetime. He gets in for being consistantly superb, year after year. The fact that he never sold his services to the highest bidder is admirable as well.

jfkfc
Liverwurst








Since: 9.2.02

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#60 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.09
    Originally posted by spf
    You link to the answer you are looking for.
No, my questions wasn't about eligibility, I am wondering who gets on the list of nominees. Why were Steinbach and Nixon on the ballot, and not Tony Fossas? Fossas played over 10 years with his last season being 1999, which made him eligible this year. Was he good? Eh, he was ok (being generous), but while he wasn't as good of a pitcher as Steinbach was a catcher, its quite obvious that Fossas would have the same shot as Steinbach to make the HOF...zero.
    Originally posted by spf
    I just wonder what the protocol would be for someone who didn't play 10 years. Say for instance a guy comes up, has 9 50 HR seasons, and dies in a plane wreck. Would that person be eligible still?
I would think that they would be able to make an exception in a case of death or severe injury. I was thinking of Roy Campanella, but he played exactly 10 years. The HOF site has a list of future HOF eligibles (baseballhalloffame.org). Not too many names jumping off the list. They don't list Belle for next year, but there is not any guy who jumps out at you. Would Mark Whiten even be on the ballot if he didn't have that 13 or 14 RBI game? 2007 you have McGwire, Gwynn, and Ripken...and I would love to say Paul O'Neill, but its wishful thinking on my part. 2008 will be interesting with Raines. He was such a dominant on-base and SB guy for so many years. Henderson is 2008, first ballot for sure.



A lot of people don't realize what's really going on. They view life as a bunch of unconnected incidents and things. They don't realize that there's this, like, lattice of coincidence that lays on top of everything. Give you an example, show you what I mean: suppose you're thinkin' about a plate o' shrimp. Suddenly someone'll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o' shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin' for one, either. It's all part of a cosmic unconciousness.
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Yes exactly, that's why, like it was pointed out by someone else, A-Rod has more total chances, nearly 200 more, because he has WAY more range. Which resulted in 63 more put outs and 100 more assists.
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