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The W - Baseball - Hall of Fame Class of 2007 (Page 2)
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BigSteve
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Since: 23.7.04
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.07
    Originally posted by chill

    To this day, there's no more proof that McGwire was on steroids while hitting all those homers, than there is that Ripken was on steroids while his body was always rested enough to start all those consecutive games.


There's certainly a whole host of evidence that McGwire was using performance enhancing drugs while there's nothing of the sort about Ripken. Canseco's allegations, McGwire's change in appearance, his use of andro, his testimony in front of Congress - those, all combined, are certainly enough for a reasonable person to conclude McGwire used steroids. Not so for Ripken.



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StaggerLee
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.21
Andro is/was legal at the time, correct?

He readily admitted to using it when asked.

He kept it out in the open in the clubhouse.



chill
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Since: 18.5.02

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.46
    Originally posted by BigSteve
      Originally posted by chill

      To this day, there's no more proof that McGwire was on steroids while hitting all those homers, than there is that Ripken was on steroids while his body was always rested enough to start all those consecutive games.


    There's certainly a whole host of evidence that McGwire was using performance enhancing drugs while there's nothing of the sort about Ripken. Canseco's allegations, McGwire's change in appearance, his use of andro, his testimony in front of Congress - those, all combined, are certainly enough for a reasonable person to conclude McGwire used steroids. Not so for Ripken.


McGwire was always big throughout his career. None of the supplements McGwire is known for using were ILLEGAL in baseball at the time he was playing. And he hasn't been found guilty of anything - not even by Congress. So again, please tell me what proof there is that McGwire ever broke any rules? And Canseco?? Dude, please. When you're citing JOSE CANSECO's allegations in order to make your case, you KNOW there's something lacking...

I think you've illustrated my point with this reasoning.



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Sec19Row53
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.11
If you truly believe that McGwire was big his entire career, please do a Google image search for 1987 Donruss McGwire, or 1987 Topps McGwire, and tell me he stayed anywhere close to that size, both in body and face.

As to "he had andro out in the open in his locker", do you think maybe he did that to dispel thoughts that just maybe he was using something else, also?

Steroids are and were illegal according to the government, so it doesn't matter whether baseball says they're not allowed.
DirtyMikeSeaver
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Since: 19.5.02
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.27
    Originally posted by chill
      Originally posted by BigSteve
        Originally posted by chill

        To this day, there's no more proof that McGwire was on steroids while hitting all those homers, than there is that Ripken was on steroids while his body was always rested enough to start all those consecutive games.


      There's certainly a whole host of evidence that McGwire was using performance enhancing drugs while there's nothing of the sort about Ripken. Canseco's allegations, McGwire's change in appearance, his use of andro, his testimony in front of Congress - those, all combined, are certainly enough for a reasonable person to conclude McGwire used steroids. Not so for Ripken.


    McGwire was always big throughout his career. None of the supplements McGwire is known for using were ILLEGAL in baseball at the time he was playing. And he hasn't been found guilty of anything - not even by Congress. So again, please tell me what proof there is that McGwire ever broke any rules? And Canseco?? Dude, please. When you're citing JOSE CANSECO's allegations in order to make your case, you KNOW there's something lacking...

    I think you've illustrated my point with this reasoning.


Fay Vincent actually sent a memo to all teams saying that steroids were illegal in 1991. The problem was, they couldn't agree on testing.

And you can't tell me that you think that McGwire didn't use steroids during his career. There's tons of circumstantial evidence to support this. I know that Canseco isn't exactly the bastion of virtue, but he WAS there during all of this, he WAS right about Palmerio and no one has yet to sue him over all of these allegations.



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chill
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.46
    Originally posted by Sec19Row53
    If you truly believe that McGwire was big his entire career, please do a Google image search for 1987 Donruss McGwire, or 1987 Topps McGwire, and tell me he stayed anywhere close to that size, both in body and face.

    As to "he had andro out in the open in his locker", do you think maybe he did that to dispel thoughts that just maybe he was using something else, also?

    Steroids are and were illegal according to the government, so it doesn't matter whether baseball says they're not allowed.


Good lord. Show me ANY player who maintained their size as a rookie all the way until 15 years later. Please - that's a challenge.

My statement was referring to his size for his age. When he was a rookie, he was big for players his age at that time. Please prove me wrong. He's always been a big guy. I didn't say he stayed the same size throughout his career - anyone with half a brain knows what any kind of strength training does to a body, jebus christ.

For the record, I also think he was using roids and a number of other substances. But SO WHAT?! Until a failed test for ILLEGAL substances in BASEBALL becomes public, then there are no real grounds for keeping him out. And it doesn't matter: he's got to pay his time now, but he'll eventually get in. Bonds, on the other hand...

As for steroids being illegal, according to the government... no shit. But last I checked, the baseball Hall of Fame doesn't care what the government thinks. And I've seen the government charge how many players for steroid use?? Hmmm. Can't say I recall any of the players with failed drug tests being charged by the government. Leave the gov't out of a topic that doesn't include it - such as MLB, which lives by its own rules. McGwire played by the rules (to the best of our knowledge). Making assinine comments like, "Well, it's OBVIOUS he was on steroids" are nothing more than slander. If we all made stupid comments based on assumptions, this board would go to hell.



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Mr. Boffo
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Since: 24.3.02
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
    Originally posted by chill
    As for steroids being illegal, according to the government... no shit. But last I checked, the baseball Hall of Fame doesn't care what the government thinks.

According to the instructions on the ballots, voters are to consider "record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which he played".

If he used steroids, McGwire fails on the integrity, sportsmanship, and character counts.

(edited by Mr. Boffo on 12.1.07 1557)



chill
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.43
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
      Originally posted by chill
      As for steroids being illegal, according to the government... no shit. But last I checked, the baseball Hall of Fame doesn't care what the government thinks.

    According to the instructions on the ballots, voters are to consider "record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which he played".

    If he used steroids, McGwire fails on the integrity, sportsmanship, and character counts.

    (edited by Mr. Boffo on 12.1.07 1557)


Which is pointless discussing until a failed steroids test is revealed, no???

FUTHERMORE, "if" a player had less than stellar results in any of those categories, so what? That doesn't automatically change anything, depending on what the "crime" was. Seems that Ty Cobb is still in the HOF, despite being one of the world's all-time biggest a**holes.

I've said my piece. I'm just tired of hearing morons claiming this and that MUST be true, because "I'm an expert at detecting steroid use just by looking at photos of people I don't know and have never given a steroid test to."

Meanwhile, Bonds is actually failing tests, and we're talking about how McGwire "MUST BE" doing the same... what an awesome discussion of facts.

(edited by chill on 12.1.07 1750)


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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.81
Frank Thomas.




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Sec19Row53
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Since: 2.1.02
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.11
I started to respond on Friday at work, but couldn't finish.

Cal Ripken, Jr. Robin Yount. Ryne Sandberg. I limited it to some guys who hit homers, so as not to be criticized for saying Ozzie Smith, or Tony Gwynn -- who just got fatter, not muscularly bigger.

Please try to seriously tell me that 6'5", 220 lb Mark McGwire (according to his 1985 Topps baseball card) bears any resemblance to Mark McGwire, circa 1998. He doesn't.
rockdotcom_2.0
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.89
All I have to say is that anybody that didnt vote for Mcgwire better not vote for Roger Clemens when he comes up. Because no one is going to argue with a straight face that Mcgwire is so obviously guilty but Clemens is clean.

Are we all going to pretend that baseball from 1995 till 2003 didnt happen? If McGwire doesnt get in then no player from the his era should get in.



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StaggerLee
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.21
    Originally posted by Sec19Row53
    I started to respond on Friday at work, but couldn't finish.

    Cal Ripken, Jr. Robin Yount. Ryne Sandberg. I limited it to some guys who hit homers, so as not to be criticized for saying Ozzie Smith, or Tony Gwynn -- who just got fatter, not muscularly bigger.

    Please try to seriously tell me that 6'5", 220 lb Mark McGwire (according to his 1985 Topps baseball card) bears any resemblance to Mark McGwire, circa 1998. He doesn't.


Do you look the same as you did 13 years ago?

I guess we'll have to take Gaylord Perry out of the Hall, since he was pretty much the most open CHEATER in the history of the game.


And, while we're at it, since its common knowledge that amphetamines were rampant in the 60s and 70s, lets take all those players out of the HOF as well.


Like I said before, these assclowns who do the voting were the same ones sucking McGuire and Sosa's nutsack during the home run race, talking about how they saved the game. Now, somehow they destroyed it as well?




Sec19Row53
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Oconomowoc, WI

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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.11
Well, I haven't put on 40-50 lbs. of muscle, lost a good deal of hair, and had a horrible case of adult acne. Remember, the challenge was to name ANY HOFer who looked the same at the beginning and ending of his career. I think I named three who were home run hitters (certainly not bashers, but guys who had some power -- not Tony Gwynn or Ozzie Smith) who meet the requested challenge.

Yes, Gaylord Perry cheated. Gamesmanship is different, yet still wrong. And the last time I checked, two wrongs still don't make a right.
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