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The W - Baseball - Hall of Fame Class of 2007
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kwik
Summer sausage








Since: 5.9.02
From: Norwich, NY

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.65
No surprises in Cal Ripken Jr. and Tony Gwynn getting in. Neither was unanimous. Ripken got 5 more votes than Gwynn. Cal on 98.5% of ballots, Gwynn on 97.6%. Goose Gossage misses the cutoff by 21 votes.

Mark McGwire finishes with 23% of the vote.

Those missing the 5% cutoff to remain on the ballot:

Orel Hershiser
Albert Belle
Paul O'Neill
Bret Saberhagen
Jose Canseco
Tony Fernandez
Dante Bichette
Eric Davis
Bobby Bonilla
Ken Caminiti
Jay Buhner
Scott Brosius
Wally Joyner
Devon White
Bobby Witt

Steve Garvey is also dropped from the ballot, as this was his final year of eligibility from the writers.




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Goetta








Since: 2.1.02
From: Chandler, AZ

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.51
    Originally posted by kwik
    Steve Garvey is also dropped from the ballot, as this was his final year of eligibility from the writers.



Good! I will never forget that g-damn home run in Game 4 of the 84 NLCS!!!!
thecubsfan
Scrapple
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Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
Here's the other ballots (stolen from BTF)

Rich "Goose" Gossage 388 71.2%
Jim Rice 346 63.5%
Andre Dawson 309 56.7%
Bert Blyleven 260 47.7%
Lee Smith 217 39.8%
Jack Morris 202 37.1%
Mark McGwire 128 23.5%
Tommy John 125 22.9%
Steve Garvey 115 21.1%
Dave Concepcion 74 13.6%
Alan Trammell 73 13.4%
Dave Parker 62 11.4%
Don Mattingly 54 9.9%
Dale Murphy 50 9.2%
Harold Baines 29 5.3%

Some names that'll be eligible to be on the ballot (but may not necessarily make it) next year:

* Shawon Dunston
* Travis Fryman
* David Justice
* Mike Morgan
* Tim Raines
* Randy Velarde

Raines and maybe Justice are the only two with hopes of sticking around. I like Raines, but I think best case is him sticking around for 15 years and never making it. (Which must suck.)

Two good bets for '08
- Gossage should get the votes he's missing and get in
- media will continue to obsess over Mac, despite it being obvious from the outset he's not getting in (the number will go up, though)

Will anyone else get in? I think Smith will eventually be helped by Gossage making it in, but can't get in ahead or at the same time as him. Rice and Dawson may have the same problem.

(edited by thecubsfan on 9.1.07 1356)


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Mr. Boffo
Scrapple








Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
Any word on if anyone voted for Canseco?




Brian P. Dermody
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Since: 20.9.02
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.26
The push for Randy Velarde beings *now*.



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StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.21
Who the hell wouldnt or didnt vote for Ripken and Gwynn?

And, its a shame about Big Mac not getting in. I think Jason Stark's article made some good points.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof07/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2724114
Teapot
Kishke








Since: 1.8.02
From: Louisville KY

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.50
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Who the hell wouldnt or didnt vote for Ripken and Gwynn?


Nobody has ever been elected unanimously to the Hall. Some writers feel that nobody ever should, so there will probably always be four or five writers that will not vote for the no-brainer candidate just so they won't be unanimous. It's stupid, but that's baseball.



Mr. Boffo
Scrapple








Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
    Any word on if anyone voted for Canseco?

Found it. From http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/news/2007/election/results.htm , the less than 5% voting:
Orel Hershiser 24 4.4
Albert Belle 19 3.5
Paul O'Neill 12 2.2
Bret Saberhagen 7 1.3
Jose Canseco 6 1.1
Tony Fernandez 4 0.7
Dante Bichette 3 0.6
Eric Davis 3 0.6
Bobby Bonilla 2 0.4
Ken Caminiti 2 0.4
Jay Buhner 1 0.2
Scott Brosius 0 0.0
Wally Joyner 0 0.0
Devon White 0 0.0
Bobby Witt 0 0.0




drjayphd
Scrapple
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Since: 22.4.02
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.89
You wanted the best, you got... Out of Context Quote of the Week.

"They're plump, ripe, and priced to move. Get your fat Samoan today!" (Packman V2)


I'm saying Gossage and Rice are in next year. It's Rice's best shot, anyways. McGwire doesn't make it, but breaks 50%.

And the reason that it wasn't unanimouswas that one writer submitted a blank ballot, citing performance-enhancing drugs from 1993-2004. Weenie.



BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.62
How does Cal Ripken not get 100% ... because a couple writers wanted to be the cute guy that didn't vote for him.

Jack Morris and Goose Gossage are still most deserving of the also rans, but the very fact that Jaymotherfuckin'Buhner got 1 vote is enough to send me away home happy.


(edited by BigDaddyLoco on 9.1.07 1809)
DirtyMikeSeaver
Boudin rouge








Since: 19.5.02
From: Toronto

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.26


I see the arguement for him getting in, but I honestly don't think McGwire should get in and I don't care what he took (you still have to hit the ball and make contact, plus drugs sure didn't help Gabe Kapler).

McGwire was a great home run hitter but he was also one dimensional. Frank Thomas has played 16 yrs before last year (the same time as McGwire) and aside from HR, beats him in every significant offensive category. Plus he won an MVP (something McGwire never did). And I would call Thomas (at best) a borderline HOF. Plus I find it funny that people said that "He might have been one dimensional, but he was AWESOME at doing it an one of the best", yet Lee Smith, the all time save leader (until this year) doesn't make it because "saves are a meaningless statistic".

P.S. McGwire does beat him in Slugging %.

(edited by DirtyMikeSeaver on 9.1.07 1519)


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pieman
As young as
he feels








Since: 11.12.01
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.30


    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    but the very fact that Jaymotherfuckin'Buhner got 1 vote is enough to send me away home happy.


This fact should disqualify the person who voted for Jay Buhner from ever voting again. That is ridiculous.





Gabba Gabba Hey!
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.57
    Originally posted by pieman
      Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
      but the very fact that Jaymotherfuckin'Buhner got 1 vote is enough to send me away home happy.


    This fact should disqualify the person who voted for Jay Buhner from ever voting again. That is ridiculous.

That vote was cast by Frank Costanza.



Now I'll never be able to lead SPF's spfers! (The W)
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.21
    Originally posted by DirtyMikeSeaver


    I see the arguement for him getting in, but I honestly don't think McGwire should get in and I don't care what he took (you still have to hit the ball and make contact, plus drugs sure didn't help Gabe Kapler).

    McGwire was a great home run hitter but he was also one dimensional. Frank Thomas has played 16 yrs before last year (the same time as McGwire) and aside from HR, beats him in every significant offensive category. Plus he won an MVP (something McGwire never did). And I would call Thomas (at best) a borderline HOF. Plus I find it funny that people said that "He might have been one dimensional, but he was AWESOME at doing it an one of the best", yet Lee Smith, the all time save leader (until this year) doesn't make it because "saves are a meaningless statistic".

    P.S. McGwire does beat him in Slugging %.

    (edited by DirtyMikeSeaver on 9.1.07 1519)



Not to seem like a Jayson Stark nutswinger, but I think this argument is pretty good FOR Big Mac making it.




    There are a million reasons not to vote for McGwire. But of all the reasons people have dredged up lately, the one I find most amazing is the revisionist history that he wasn't that good -- except for those four years (1996-99) when he morphed into Babe Ruth.

    Well, hold on. Ask any scout who saw him at USC, and they'll all tell you the same thing: This guy was a big-time masher from the day he was drafted until the day he quit.

    If it took Jose Canseco's magic potion to make him any good, how come he had a .618 slugging percentage in his rookie season? Andruw Jones, Adam Dunn and Jeff Kent have never slugged .618 in any season, if that tells you anything.

    And if McGwire wasn't any good until 1996, how did he manage to put up six seasons with at least 32 homers and 90 RBI in his seven healthy seasons before that? That's as many seasons of 32-90 as Chipper Jones and Moises Alou have, combined.

    If he wasn't any good, how did this man make 12 All-Star teams -- as many as Mike Schmidt? If he wasn't any good, why did he collect MVP votes in every healthy season of his career except one?

    The other shaky argument here is that McGwire just had one song on his jukebox, that all he could do was hit home runs, kind of like Dave Kingman. But if he was so one-dimensional, how did he win a Gold Glove? How did he compile that .394 career on-base percentage? And even if he had just one superior dimension, he had the best home run ratio of any player who ever lived (one every 10.6 at-bats).

    So if people want to vote against him to make a steroid statement, I understand that. But arguing that he didn't have a Hall of Fame career? That one doesn't compute.


BigSteve
Pepperoni








Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2900 days
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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.07
McGwire definately belongs. He was one of the ten greatest power hitters of all-time, had a .394 OBP, and even won a gold glove early in his career when he was an above average fielder. He wasn't fast, was a poor defensive player at the end, and didn't hit for average, but he was damned valuable to his team. Frank Thomas is also a first-ballot no brainer. Probably the second best hitter in the 90s behind Bonds.

Albert Belle is the guy I thought should have got more support. Didn't expect him to make it, but he's well behind several guys that are equal to or lesser players.



Yes, you are a troll.
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.68
Here's the catch about Big Mac....everyone knows he was a very good power hitter in the late 80's and early 90's, but he didn't start putting up his ridiculous, HOF-esque years until after he was rumoured to be on the juice. Before the steroid suspicion started in, I would've put McGwire in the same category as Fred McGriff or Troy Glaus -- very good power hitters, but not Hall of Famers.



I don't know what is more disquieting -- the fact that the rest of the statue is missing, or that it has four toes.
jfkfc
Liverwurst








Since: 9.2.02

Since last post: 157 days
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.75
    Originally posted by thecubsfan
    Two good bets for '08
    - Gossage should get the votes he's missing and get in
    - media will continue to obsess over Mac, despite it being obvious from the outset he's not getting in (the number will go up, though)

    Will anyone else get in? I think Smith will eventually be helped by Gossage making it in, but can't get in ahead or at the same time as him. Rice and Dawson may have the same problem.
I think Goose makes it in next year, and it feels that I read more "Why aren't Rice and Dawson in the HOF??" columns every year...not that they are being written by voters, but they both seem to get a little more play each year. Personally, I could go either way on both. The Lee Smith/Rich Gossage arguement, to me, is not a good one. Smith was a decent reliever and total save whore, while Gossage was a bona-fide all-time great closer. If it is truly about "hit milestones and be immortalized," then let's get the place ready for Palmiero, McGriff, Blyleven, and all of the other players who were solid, had long, consistant careers, but were never considered an "all-time great."
DirtyMikeSeaver
Boudin rouge








Since: 19.5.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 14 days
Last activity: 14 days
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.27
    Originally posted by jfkfc
      Originally posted by thecubsfan
      Two good bets for '08
      - Gossage should get the votes he's missing and get in
      - media will continue to obsess over Mac, despite it being obvious from the outset he's not getting in (the number will go up, though)

      Will anyone else get in? I think Smith will eventually be helped by Gossage making it in, but can't get in ahead or at the same time as him. Rice and Dawson may have the same problem.
    I think Goose makes it in next year, and it feels that I read more "Why aren't Rice and Dawson in the HOF??" columns every year...not that they are being written by voters, but they both seem to get a little more play each year. Personally, I could go either way on both. The Lee Smith/Rich Gossage arguement, to me, is not a good one. Smith was a decent reliever and total save whore, while Gossage was a bona-fide all-time great closer. If it is truly about "hit milestones and be immortalized," then let's get the place ready for Palmiero, McGriff, Blyleven, and all of the other players who were solid, had long, consistant careers, but were never considered an "all-time great."


I think that's a little harsh to say that about Smith being a save whore. Here's a comparison of them from 81-87:

Smith - 571 IP, 179 Saves
Gossage - 525 IP, 152 Saves

This was before the "One Inning" specialty save, so Smith did log a lot of innings, getting his saves. The only thing that works against him is that he was crappy in the postseason, but there's no doubt that at one time, he was the best reliever in the game. That should count for something.



Kevin Kelly: "Mr. Austin, would you like to comment on Wade Keller's Take that endorsing the XFL hurts your anti-authority character?"

Steve Austin: "Oh shit, he actually said that? I thought the boys in the back were ribbing me!"

Kelly: "No, he really said that. Did they tell you the part about you sitting in the stands, looking all skeptical?"

Austin: "AHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yeah... oh man that was too much."
chill
Landjager








Since: 18.5.02

Since last post: 2745 days
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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.59
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Here's the catch about Big Mac....everyone knows he was a very good power hitter in the late 80's and early 90's, but he didn't start putting up his ridiculous, HOF-esque years until after he was rumoured to be on the juice. Before the steroid suspicion started in, I would've put McGwire in the same category as Fred McGriff or Troy Glaus -- very good power hitters, but not Hall of Famers.


I accept your opinion, but disagree.

Neither McGriff, Glaus, nor Lee Smith saved baseball in the late 90s. And that's the difference maker when it comes to McGwire. He (and Sosa) drew millions back to the game, and when you combine his "McGriff-like" stats with what he's done for the game, he is HOF-worthy. Not to mention his All-Star appearances, temporary home run record, and World Series ring. The Hall of FAME is not always about stats... sometimes the FAME has something to do with why a player deserves the vote.

Either way, none of what we think McGwire was taking was illegal in baseball at the time. So whether we now think it is cheating or even if we thought it was at the time... MLB did not ban those substances, and that's the problem. According to MLB's rules... McGwire did nothing wrong. So technically-speaking, he should be scapegoated for the steroid issue. We all see and realize - even agree - why he's being denied HOF access right now. But I think in a few years, he'll get in.

To this day, there's no more proof that McGwire was on steroids while hitting all those homers, than there is that Ripken was on steroids while his body was always rested enough to start all those consecutive games. We can assume whatever we want, but it means nothing and the people who grandstand on the internet with arguments which are based on proofless assumptions are just losers.

Without proof AND a rule in baseball (at the time when certain candidates played) banning people from taking what are now deemed illegal substances, there should be no reason why any player with HOF stats should not get into the HOF. Period. They played by the rules - and that's MLB's fault. Not the player's.


(edited by chill on 11.1.07 1535)

(edited by chill on 11.1.07 1539)

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Llakor
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Montreal, Quebec, CANADA

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.25
    Originally posted by jfkfc
    then let's get the place ready for Palmiero, McGriff, Blyleven, and all of the other players who were solid, had long, consistant careers, but were never considered an "all-time great."


One of these names does not belong on that list.

In non-stat terms Bert Blyleven had the best curve-ball of the modern era period.

In non-stat terms Bert Blyleven was hosed in his career for playing for teams that were not in the media spotlight and that for the most part, other than him, sucked donkey-balls

In stat terms, there is no argument to be made to keep Blyleven out of the Hall. Just try and make one. I won't even have to respond. A horde of Minnesota stat-heads will descend upon you and bludgeon you to death under a deluge of numbers.



"Don't Blame CANADA, Blame Yourselves!"
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