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MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 8 days
Last activity: 16 hours
#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.73
Here's some questions for progressives (although I suppose for the most part they can be answered by anyone) I came across in another forum.

1.) What countries do you admire and why? And I don't mean a singular aspect, I mean as a whole.

2.) Is communism /marxism every bit as inherently evil and oppressive as fascism?

3.) If someone handed you the keys to the kingdom and said "the world is yours, you can do with it as you please," what would you do that would make it better ?

4.) Is it possible for someone to not be a progressive without being stupid, uninformed, evil or greedy?

5.) Domestically, what would your policy changes be? What standard of living do people have a right to reasonably expect? And how would you accomplish all the things you wanted to do without destroying the dynamism of our economy which is the very thing that amasses this vast amount of wealth that you aspire to spend on other, more worthy things?




(edited by MoeGates on 21.2.03 1403)


It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Boston, and a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage.
Promote this thread!
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#2 Posted on
whoa boy-

1- The UK - I mean, I admire their form of Democracy, I admire their loyalty as a nation, and I admire their spirit. This is a country that went from a colonial superpower to a gracious "Father"-type nation that is incredibly loyal. The UK is "the shit."

2- yes/no . Communism and Marxism are separate things. Communism is oppresive and highly corrupt. True Marxism is anything but.

3- I do not have the time or space for the novel required to answer that question...

4- There is no such thing as a Progressive. It is a buzz term that means "Liberal." It is just another way for people to accuse moderates and conservatives of backwards, hateful thinking.

5- See answer 3.



Not that restraint when posting in a "public" forum isn't a good thing...

DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3482 days
Last activity: 3476 days
#3 Posted on
"2- yes/no . Communism and Marxism are separate things. Communism is oppresive and highly corrupt. True Marxism is anything but."

Many scholars would likely disagree with that.

DMC




"Darwinists sometimes find confirming evidence, just as Marxists found capitalists exploiting workers and Freudians analyzed patients who said that they wanted to murder their fathers and marry their mothers. They find further instances of microevolution, or additional examples of natural relationships, or a fossil group that might have contained an ancestor of modern mammals. What they never find is evidence that contradicts the common ancestry thesis, because to Darwinists such evidence cannot exist. The 'fact of evolution' is true by definition, and so negative information is uninteresting, and generally unpublishable."

-Phillip Johnson, *Darwin on Trial*
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
Good grief, Moe. And you want to know why liberal talk radio won't work. Let me rephrase a couple of those.

2.) Do you think that communism, an ideology that has killed 10s of millions and pushed the world to the brink of nuclear war, is inherently bad and oppressive? Do you think a system which puts all power in the hands of a centralized oligarchy is as bad as one that puts all the power in the hands of one man?

4.) Is everyone who disagrees with you an idiot, a greedy capitalist running dog, or both?


Sheesh.



"... I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass..."

Pedro Martinez
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 8 days
Last activity: 16 hours
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.73
These were questions asked by a conservative of progessives. I put them up here because I thought they were good questions he asked.

I guess that means Liberal talk radio is going to fail because it will actually seek to engage and debate different ideas, instead of spewing unsubstantiated rhetoric all day.



It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Boston, and a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage.
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#6 Posted on

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    These were questions asked by a conservative of progessives. I put them up here because I thought they were good questions he asked.

    I guess that means Liberal talk radio is going to fail because it will actually seek to engage and debate different ideas, instead of spewing unsubstantiated rhetoric all day.


God Moe- if you want to debate, I am all for that. I think of the two parties... the Republican party is the one more open to new ideas nowadays. The Democrats will brook no opposition- it is their way or you are a racist.
If your idea of "debating ideas" is arguing over just how hateful Republicans are, I think you need to reasses...

I think the politics folder of late is a great example. For the most part, you see a lot of Conservatives posing ideas- and the majority of the leftist responses (with a few notable exceptions) are simple rejections with no substance, and mudslinging. Or Bush-bashing.

Debate is NOT simply agreeing that Bush is an ass, nor it is opposing everything the man does just because. Debate is an open discussion of ideas, and ways of doing things, without resorting to "You are a Republican, ergo, you are wrong." I know it can be said that it goes BOTH ways, but in my experience here, it is more often partisan BS on the Democrats side that starts it.

Liberal talk radio is going to fail because it has failed for the past several years. The fact that liberal talk show hosts do not get attention NOW is not going to change when some rich lawyer or whoever ponies up some cash to force a few new ones down our throats. There is no "Conservative Radio conspiracy." It is simply the fact that the Conservative hosts are more popular.

But hey, I am all about competition. Bring them on! I might even give them a try... it is always good to hear an opposing viewpoint. But I strongly suspect that much like the CURRENT Liberal hosts, there will be very little substance.

At least Rush paints a picture about what is going ON in the world, and will openly bash a Republican, or praise a Democrat, when the situation calls for it...



Not that restraint when posting in a "public" forum isn't a good thing...

PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2837 days
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    These were questions asked by a conservative of progessives. I put them up here because I thought they were good questions he asked.

    I guess that means Liberal talk radio is going to fail because it will actually seek to engage and debate different ideas, instead of spewing unsubstantiated rhetoric all day.



No, no, no... I am not saying that at all. I just think those questions are silly. Discussing whether communism is evil, and whether your intellectual opponents are dumb is not a debate, really. The former has been proven by years of history, and the latter is just a matter of ego. And my point was that liberal talk radio will definitely fail if this is their attitude, because, to me, those questions are not there to foster debate. Not two of 'em, anyway.



"... I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass..."

Pedro Martinez
eviljonhunt81
Pepperoni








Since: 6.1.02
From: not Japan

Since last post: 2994 days
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#8 Posted on
I don't think history proved communism evil-er than any other form of government. I tihnk it proved that communism has little chance of survival when implemented in countries that, according to such sources as Karl Marx, are not ready for communist revolution, it tends to fail miserably.



Jersey Is Dead - Feel my Grief

Weekly Visitor
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 8 days
Last activity: 16 hours
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.73
I love when people say "Communism doesn't work - look at Russia." Because by that argument, Capitalism sure doesn't work either.

The bigger the group is, the less chance Communism has of working. The cutoff tends to be when the group is so large, people don't know everybody in the group (about 1000-2000 people).

I mean, a family is essentially a communist unit, and they work great. Communism works perfectly on places like kibbutzim, where you got several hunded people or so. It fails in large countries of several million.





It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Boston, and a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage.
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 113 days
Last activity: 15 hours
#10 Posted on

    Originally posted by eviljonhunt81
    I don't think history proved communism evil-er than any other form of government. I tihnk it proved that communism has little chance of survival when implemented in countries that, according to such sources as Karl Marx, are not ready for communist revolution, it tends to fail miserably.


It depends on what you mean by evil-er. If by evil-er, you mean worse human rights records, worse criminal justice systems, lower quality of life, state-sponsored murder of tens of millions of people, etc. then I would argue that communist governments have historically been evil-er.

I would agree that a 'communist state' works for a number of like-minded individuals who freely join the 'state', but by any objective measure, communism as a form of government has failed miserably. Lastly, I'm not sure how Marx said that Russia, China, Vietnam, etc. were not ready for communist revolution since he died in 1883, 40 years before any of these countries tried it.
jentos
Cotto








Since: 16.12.02
From: Minneapolis

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#11 Posted on
1.) What countries do you admire and why? And I don't mean a singular aspect, I mean as a whole.

I admire France, because they are never shy on their belives. For the same reason I admire USA.

2.) Is communism /marxism every bit as inherently evil and oppressive as fascism?


Of course not. I would know, I lived during Communism. It's a nice idea, which will NEVER work due to people being greedy and selfish.


3.) If someone handed you the keys to the kingdom and said "the world is yours, you can do with it as you please," what would you do that would make it better ?

To create one country I would force people to abandon their home lands to force diversity. Since most of the conflicts are over land (at least right now), it would resolve in prolonged peace.


4.) Is it possible for someone to not be a progressive without being stupid, uninformed, evil or greedy?

yes


5.) Domestically, what would your policy changes be? What standard of living do people have a right to reasonably expect? And how would you accomplish all the things you wanted to do without destroying the dynamism of our economy which is the very thing that amasses this vast amount of wealth that you aspire to spend on other, more worthy things?

At the very least I would get read of Electoral college




Do svidaniya
rabidzebra
Linguica








Since: 23.6.02
From: Charleston SC

Since last post: 2830 days
Last activity: 1661 days
#12 Posted on
    Originally posted by Corajudo

    I would agree that a 'communist state' works for a number of like-minded individuals who freely join the 'state', but by any objective measure, communism as a form of government has failed miserably.


I also agree that Communism can and does work, if you're a Smurf.

(edited by rabidzebra on 24.2.03 1359)

The way of Hercule is the philosophy of daily training, constantly pushing your limits, and never giving up to build a powerful body and mind... and having a wild time all the time.
I am a H-Fer.
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3482 days
Last activity: 3476 days
#13 Posted on
"To create one country I would force people to abandon their home lands to force diversity. Since most of the conflicts are over land (at least right now), it would resolve in prolonged peace."

Didn't nice guys like Stalin and Pol Pot already try bringing about that kind of "prolonged peace"?

DMC




"Darwinists sometimes find confirming evidence, just as Marxists found capitalists exploiting workers and Freudians analyzed patients who said that they wanted to murder their fathers and marry their mothers. They find further instances of microevolution, or additional examples of natural relationships, or a fossil group that might have contained an ancestor of modern mammals. What they never find is evidence that contradicts the common ancestry thesis, because to Darwinists such evidence cannot exist. The 'fact of evolution' is true by definition, and so negative information is uninteresting, and generally unpublishable."

-Phillip Johnson, *Darwin on Trial*
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 205 days
Last activity: 6 days
#14 Posted on
Oy. Let's see if I can say what's on my mind:

1) Moe, I love the questions. Which conservative wrote these?

2) Palp/Pool boy. Here's the thing, Palp's first response read to me (and I assume Moe) like "These questions were written by a liberal, ergo, they are wrong." Whether this was your intention, I can only guess. Moe then responded with a, "Actually, they were written by a conservative, so ha!" I hope this clears that up.

3) DMC, you said many scholars would disagree with that. What parts, specifically? Your comment was too cryptic for me.

4) This analogy only really works if you assume that all conservatives love their guns, their WOMDs, and support all the money in the world going towards the defence budget. Also, if you assume all liberals hate nuclear weapons. While that's slightly an exaggeration, if you don't think of yourself like that, then feel free to not get angry with this statement.

Conservatives say, "Communism is evil because it killed millions of people, and pushed the world to the brink of nuclear war. Communism should never be allowed in the US." Liberals say, "Nuclear weapons are evil because they killed millions of people, and pushed to world to the brink of nuclear war. Nuclear weapons should never be allowed in the US."

An interesting division there, yes? Plus, you can also stem off the fact that: Communism has been practiced in many other countries around the world. So Conservatvies MUST hate foreign people, and they are all racists. Also, Nuclear Weapons were developed by America, and used to help end a war and save American (as well as American allies) lives. So Liberals MUST hate America, and all it's allies.

5) I think that at this moment, the only way communism can work is on a small scale. I'd be happy for someone to prove me wrong in the future. Also, we have yet to see what happens when a communist country is not treated as a hostile enemy by the only superpower in the world.

6) Jentos, I think the forced relocation would just lead to a whole hell of a lot of violence. Now if everybody worked together to overthrow your government, then we may reach a prolonged peace. But probably not, as some resistance leader is going to try and reach for too much power, and more fighting will ensue.

-Jag

And I didn't even get to the questions!

Oh, and 7) Pool-Boy, write the damn novel. Or at least an abridged version. If you put your thoughts out there, then we're one step closer to reaching our own utopia here in the politics forum. Rather than just a bunch of fighting in here, we should all be striving to reach a place where we can all be happy. Or something. I don't know.

Sometimes, it'd just be nice that instead of trying to give as little ground as we can, we all try to meet each other halfway.

Ahhhhh, idealism....

(wc-502, just for kicks)

(edited by Jaguar on 24.2.03 1540)


No matter how obvious the trap, you can't complete the game unless you fall into it.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2837 days
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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
    Originally Posted by jentos
    It's a nice idea, which will NEVER work due to people being greedy and selfish.


Like those selfish Chinese at Tianemen Square.


    Originally Posted by Jaguar
    2) Palp/Pool boy. Here's the thing, Palp's first response read to me (and I assume Moe) like "These questions were written by a liberal, ergo, they are wrong." Whether this was your intention, I can only guess. Moe then responded with a, "Actually, they were written by a conservative, so ha!" I hope this clears that up.


No, not at all. If these questions were written by someone on the right, then I think they are there to bait the lefty being questioned. My point is that the questions contain underlying assumptions, those being "the other side is wrong," and "history never happened."


    Originally Posted by Jaguar
    6) Jentos, I think the forced relocation would just lead to a whole hell of a lot of violence. Now if everybody worked together to overthrow your government, then we may reach a prolonged peace. But probably not, as some resistance leader is going to try and reach for too much power, and more fighting will ensue.


So, if forced relocation brings about the results you desire, it's good? Ever read American history? Remember the "Trail of Tears?" Not exactly a shining moment for the US.


    Originally Posted by Jaguar
    Also, we have yet to see what happens when a communist country is not treated as a hostile enemy by the only superpower in the world.


Do you read ANY history? Look at the history of the Soviet Union. It was conquest after conquest after conquest. My friend's mother, a college professor in her late 40s, came to this country from Poland about 25 years ago. You should have a chat with her about how excellent Soviet Russia was. Do you think that we treated them as enemies arbitrarily? I would contend it's because they were evil, expansionist, and directly opposed to us. But, then, you likely support Stalin-style "forced relocation."

Here, a quiz for you, multiple choice:

The leader of which nation removed his shoe at the United Nations and threatened "we will bury you?"

A.) The United States
B.) The USSR

Good grief, man.

(edited for spelling)

(edited by PalpatineW on 24.2.03 1626)


"... I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass..."

Pedro Martinez
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 205 days
Last activity: 6 days
#16 Posted on
Okay, first about the forced relocation, I was just saying that the only way I could see a prolonged peace coming out of it is if the whole world united to fight together. Nowhere in there was I saying it was a good plan.

Secondly, when I was typing I was thinking more along the lines of Cuba which is still treated as an enemy by the US. However, I did not say anything about whether we are justified in our position towards Cuba, or the Soviet Union. Nor did I say that I was in favor of anything that Stalin or Soviet Russia did.

I understand where you're coming from Palp, but try not to jump the gun on things I didn't say.

-Jag



No matter how obvious the trap, you can't complete the game unless you fall into it.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2837 days
Last activity: 2679 days
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
    Originally Posted by Jaguar
    Secondly, when I was typing I was thinking more along the lines of Cuba which is still treated as an enemy by the US.


Cuban. Missile. Crisis.

Edit: Or, check this out, for more info on that misunderstood little Communist paradise.

www.biscet.org

(edited by PalpatineW on 24.2.03 1622)


"... I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass..."

Pedro Martinez
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 205 days
Last activity: 6 days
#18 Posted on
I'm going to respond, because I feel deliberatly misquoted, and somewhat attacked. I'm sure everyone can scroll up, but here it is anyway.


    Originally posted by Jaguar
    Secondly, when I was typing I was thinking more along the lines of Cuba which is still treated as an enemy by the US. However, I did not say anything about whether we are justified in our position towards Cuba, or the Soviet Union.


So, blah, I said my bit to defend what I said (which wasn't really any kind of position). Unless it's something I think the whole board could benefit from reading, I'll PM any other response later. Right now, I think I'll go take a walk away from my computer for a while.

-Jag



No matter how obvious the trap, you can't complete the game unless you fall into it.
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

Since last post: 1322 days
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#19 Posted on
I personally do not see any problem with pointing out when one party or another does something that is so obviously designed to be a ploy that to give it any respect at all would be demeaning. Take "Progressives." That is a term dredged from a history book, it was carefully analysed to determine exactly what reaction an average voter would have upon hearing this term (and it is a good word, it basically conveys a meaning of "forward thinking"), and then applying it to your current party, WHETHER ITS BELIEFS FIT THE WORD OR NOT! Self-appointed "Progressives" are nothing more than liberals with a new moniker. And I do not say that in any way to accuse Liberals of ignorance, I rather think it is a good strategy. All the more reason not to let it slide.

As far as forced relocation goes, that would most certainly be a very BAD idea. Whether or not people like who they are living by, they still consider the place they live "home," or else they would leave on their own.

Maybe you will get your novel, Jaguar... though it would take a while to write, regardless... We shall see...

(edited by Pool-Boy on 24.2.03 1404)


Not that restraint when posting in a "public" forum isn't a good thing...
Freeway
Scrapple








Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

Since last post: 312 days
Last activity: 9 days
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.96

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    Here's some questions for progressives (although I suppose for the most part they can be answered by anyone) I came across in another forum.

    1.) What countries do you admire and why? And I don't mean a singular aspect, I mean as a whole.

    2.) Is communism /marxism every bit as inherently evil and oppressive as fascism?

    3.) If someone handed you the keys to the kingdom and said "the world is yours, you can do with it as you please," what would you do that would make it better ?

    4.) Is it possible for someone to not be a progressive without being stupid, uninformed, evil or greedy?

    5.) Domestically, what would your policy changes be? What standard of living do people have a right to reasonably expect? And how would you accomplish all the things you wanted to do without destroying the dynamism of our economy which is the very thing that amasses this vast amount of wealth that you aspire to spend on other, more worthy things?




    (edited by MoeGates on 21.2.03 1403)



1) Well, I LOVE CANADA...but that doesn't count 'cause I'm Canadian. I also enjoy the United Kingdom, mainly because they seemingly have the respect of the world and always have a certain air of dignity about them. Plus, the culture and the pubs. Ah, pubs...

2) Marxism is theoretically perfect, and communism is the application of Marxism on the real world, where true Marxist beliefs are skewed by the inherent greed people have.

3) Uh...supply-side economics in Canada, globalized health care and free food for all. It wouldn't work (at least, the last one wouldn't), but I can dream, can't I?

4) Yes. They're just hard to find is all.

5) Ah, the American Dream. White picket fence, 2.5 kids, a car in every garage and a chicken in every pot. Or, at least the chance to have a chicken in every pot and to have kids or a home. You can't tell people how to live their lives...you just have to give them the choice. That's liberty.



"I know something that will cheer you up, Wesley"
"Are you programmed to be thinking what I'm thinking?"
"MAKEOVER!!"
Princical Scudworth & Mr. Butlertron; Clone High
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I would think it would depend on what kind of function it was. I'm sure they're doing things for undecided voters, but this may have been meant more as the daily pep rally for national news soundbites and you're going to want all loyal supporters there.
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