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The W - Pro Wrestling - Goldberg's No Sell (Page 2)
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dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 16 days
Last activity: 1 day
#21 Posted on

    Originally posted by Wpob
    fuelinjected,

    It would be good for the company if Jericho went over because if/when Goldberg goes over, the feud is over. Goldberg moves onto HHH. This is a feud, if done right, that can span a month or two. The WWE needs a money feud to ride and this could be it. Much like Jericho/Rock a while back, this could be the reason people tune in and stay tuned to RAW.

    Having Jericho get the shocking win would completely solidify Jericho as the #2 heel on RAW for a long time and build him up as the successor to HHH as the #1 heel. If Storm super kicks Goldberg while the ref is down and Jericho gets the cover, then everyone wins. Goldberg loses only from interference and Jericho can restart the whole "I am undefeated against Goldberg" schtick he started in WCW. Goldberg then becomes a man possessed to get Jericho in the ring again. Tag matches ensue with Jericho trying to duck Goldberg at all costs. he reluctantly agrees to a PPV rematch with the stip that Goldberg can not touch him until then. Goldberg could cause Jericho to lose matches by distracting him and being a pain in the ass without hitting him. Get into the psychological. Then the big pay off: a last man standing match, no DQ. Goldberg beats Jericho and then moves onto HHH. WWE makes oodles of money fromt he feud and Goldberg, by winning a LMS match, comes across as someone who can go the distance and can not be beat fair and square. Goldberg moves onto HHH and a summer/fall feud for the belt and Jericho revisits HBK (if Michaels has the balls) to get a much deserved return win.




All of which means HHH holds onto the belt for another month or two and the a large proportion of the IWC up in arms. You can please some of the people some of the time....



fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3080 days
Last activity: 3080 days
#22 Posted on
Bad Blood is the last RAW PPV before SummerSlam when they're going to do Goldberg/HHH.
dskillz
Landjager








Since: 2.1.02
From: Houston Texas

Since last post: 3017 days
Last activity: 2722 days
#23 Posted on
"Clearly you weren’t at the RAW where he debuted, when we were chanting “Goldberg Sucks” during commercial breaks."

Just like how in 1998 all of Madison Square Garden chanted 'Rocky Sucks' throughout the night only to cheer 'Rocky, Rocky' when the match with HHH was over even though Rocky lost? There were plenty of 'Goldberg' chants last night as well.

"As for selling the spear - Goldberg's a huge ex football player. His spear is going to hurt a damn site more than Jericho's. Likewise, Goldberg's lionsault is probably very shitty."

Don't try to use logic or even wrestling logic. People will hate Goldberg for ever. That is just how it is. I thought the skit and the fued with Jericho has gone great so far. Both are playing the roles they should be playing. Jericho using heel tactics, being chickenshit, resulting to using Mace to get the spear off, talking shit, etc. Goldberg is being the face, not ducking the challenge, looking for revenge. These same people complaining about Goldberg not selling long enough would be perfectly happy if Goldberg put Jericho in the "Walls" and then Chris jumped up like he just got a massage.

The Nash no-sell was the main issue last night. He gets attacked and still can come out to try to make the save? That was LAME. It should have been Nash left laying in the dressing room and HBK left laying in the ring to set-up the tag match next week on Raw.



January 4th 1999 - The day WCW injected itself with 10 gallons of Liquid Anthrax...AKA...The day Hogan "Defeated" Nash to win the WCW title in front of 40,000.
rv581
Goetta








Since: 2.12.02

Since last post: 1301 days
Last activity: 471 days
#24 Posted on
The people who want Jericho to go over Goldberg are the same people who will then turn around and say, "Look! Goldberg is a failure! He has no heat!"

HHH's gimmick is that he's the world champion who is hellbent on keeping the title. Without the title he doesn't have an identity.

Goldberg's gimmick is that he's an indestructable monster.

Jericho's gimmick is that he's a crafty egomaniac.

HHH being in the title hunt satisfies his gimmick. Jericho out-thinking Goldberg and getting the best of him at Raw satisfies his gimmick. Goldberg finally smashing Jericho into smithereens at the PPV satisfies his gimmick.

One observation, though: Why isn't the WWE showing the footage of Jericho on WCW, calling Goldberg "Greenberg" and clowning around with Ralphus, celebrating his victories? That would interject into the feud the fact that this is something that's been brewing for a long time, not just another WWE insta-feud.



"Who ate my sandwich???"
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1247 days
Last activity: 155 days
#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

    Originally posted by Devil's Advocate

      Originally posted by asteroidboy
      I just don't like Goldberg. He comes across like an ass. His little "boy"s tacked on at the end of every phrase just seemed to indicated a total lack of respect for Jericho. Like when HHH would call him a "bitter little man." In a perfect world, guys as talented as Jericho would get a little bit more respect, but I take comfort that he's always managed to hang around and work programs with the big boys, at least.


    Why would Goldberg show "respect" to the guy who tried to have him ran over?



Not respect in a storyline sense. His remarks conveyed a lack of respect for the man in real life. Which is true, if reports are to be believed. But keep that crap in the dressing room.



-- Asteroid Boy


Wiener of the day: 23.7.02

"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex
"Was he no-selling?" - Me


StingArmy
Andouille








Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

Since last post: 26 days
Last activity: 1 day
#26 Posted on
Just to reiterate what many people have already said, the spear is a power move. Goldberg is a power wrestler. Jericho is NOT a power wrestler. If we're supposed to believe that Jericho's spear is as devastating as Goldberg's spear, well then, bring out the Shockmaster because apparently we're supposed to believe everything.

Having Goldberg go over Jericho at Badd Blood is one of the smartest things that the bookers could do. Goldberg was successful in WCW when he was the unstoppable monster. The fans thought that he could beat ANYBODY, even world champ and leader of the NWO, Hulk Hogan. If lowly Chris Jericho can beat him, there's no chance of reusing that monster gimmick. Let's face it: as much as most of us like him, Jericho is tainted goods. Don't bring Goldberg down to his level.

- StingArmy
Notorious F.A.B.
Pepperoni








Since: 4.2.02
From: Dudleyville's Gay Ghetto

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#27 Posted on
Everything else aside, it at least possible Goldberg could lose at the PPV to take his ego down a notch.



It's just you against the group mind.
count olaf
Goetta








Since: 15.7.02

Since last post: 3307 days
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#28 Posted on

    Originally posted by asteroidboy

      Originally posted by Devil's Advocate

        Originally posted by asteroidboy
        I just don't like Goldberg. He comes across like an ass. His little "boy"s tacked on at the end of every phrase just seemed to indicated a total lack of respect for Jericho. Like when HHH would call him a "bitter little man." In a perfect world, guys as talented as Jericho would get a little bit more respect, but I take comfort that he's always managed to hang around and work programs with the big boys, at least.


      Why would Goldberg show "respect" to the guy who tried to have him ran over?



    Not respect in a storyline sense. His remarks conveyed a lack of respect for the man in real life. Which is true, if reports are to be believed. But keep that crap in the dressing room.



Lack of respect in real life? Once it's on tv, it's not real life. It's all a work. At least that's what I've read around here before.
Evil Antler God
Potato korv








Since: 10.1.02

Since last post: 2757 days
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#29 Posted on
.....what no sell? He got maced, he got speared, he went down, he slowly pulled himself up on the ropes. There was no "no sell" that I could see.



Anybody can kick people's asses. But it takes a true monster to kick people's asses AND breastfeed at the same time
- Excalibur05
jimimium
Chorizo








Since: 25.1.02
From: Kirksville, MO

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#30 Posted on
You see, he sold the spear like what it is, a transitional move which disorients a person, not like the finisher that Rocky sold it as for some unknown reason that kind of annoyed me.. The Jackhammer is his damn finisher, the spear is a setup.. yet the WWE, through Rocky, trained people to think you should sell the spear like a shotgun held to your chest as its fired. He sold the spear for what it is, not for what they think it is... or something.



Trogdoooor!!
Trogdooor!!
Trogdor was a man..
I mean.. he was a dragon man..
I mean.. he was just a dragon..
But he was still..

TROGDOOOOOR!
Trogdooor!

Burninating the countryside..
Burninating the peasants..
Burninating all the peopleeeee in their tatchroofed cottages!
THATCH ROOFED COTTAGES!!

And then Trogdor comes in the NIIIIIIGHT!
Mr. Boffo
Scrapple








Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

Since last post: 269 days
Last activity: 230 days
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.44

    Originally posted by rv581
    HHH's gimmick is that he's the world champion who is hellbent on keeping the title. Without the title he doesn't have an identity.

    Goldberg's gimmick is that he's an indestructable monster.

    Jericho's gimmick is that he's a crafty egomaniac.


When did they have the "gimmick lottery" exactly? Big guys like Goldberg and Big Show should be indestructable monsters. I'll give you that. That's the only way they work. But they do have to be aware that if they're heel, eventually a face is going to overcome the odds, and get a glorious victory. I don't know how a face indestructable monster like Goldberg is supposed to work though. Does he just beat all comers for all of eternity?

But let's talk about Triple H. I've heard people say this before. "His gimmick is that he is a dominant heel." What I always wonder is, why? It's not like a person's gimmick is tattooed on their arm they day they're born. Being a dominant heel works when, you're, you know, actually good at wrestling, like Kurt Angle, or like Triple H was a couple years ago. And you say that Jericho is a crafty egomaniac. Well, you're half right. He is an egomaniac. If they were trying to get him over as being crafty, they'd give him a nickname that conveyed that. Something like, I don't know, the "Cereberal Assassin"? And that leads us back to Triple H. He seems to have the best gimmick I've ever heard of. He's a heel, but he's smarter than the faces, but yet he's also physically dominant. All they would have to do is make him no-sell a la classic Undertaker, and he'd be unstoppable.



NOTE: The above post makes no sense. We apologize for the inconvenience.
rv581
Goetta








Since: 2.12.02

Since last post: 1301 days
Last activity: 471 days
#32 Posted on
Nah. I'm not saying that ANYONE's gimmick should be permanent. If a gimmick no longer works, move on. Hulk Hogan is the prototypical example. He was the American hero. As the American hero, he beat up all the bad guys. When that gimmick went stale, he became an evil coward who thought he was bigger than wrestling.

If a wrestler's gimmick works, keep it. If it doesn't change it.

Rocky's gimmick right now is that he's an arrogant, entertaining movie star who think he's better than everyone else. He can lose match after match without his gimmick getting damaged.

Stone Cold's gimmick back in the day was that he was a schizo badass who would kick the hell out of anyone. He could lose to someone without his gimmick being damaged, as long as he beat the hell out of the opponent after the match or attacked him later on.

Goldberg's gimmick is that he's an indestructable monster. Losing to a midcarder like Jericho (and sorry, but Jericho IS a midcarder, whether by his own merits or not) kills his monster gimmick. It would be like Brock Lesnar losing to Jericho during his push; it would kill the character.

HHH's gimmick is that he's a student of the game and will do anything to keep the world title. And this is fine. It even makes sense and fits his personality. But I just don't understand why the WWE presents him as someone who must always win feuds and skirmishes. As long as he retains the title, even in a cowardly way, his gimmick would be saved. Getting destroyed by Nash wouldn't kill his gimmick-- as long as he found a loophole and fled with the championship belt. In fact, he'd be much more interesting if he was booked as being more vulnerable. His gimmick has gone stale in its present state. It might be best for him, after finally losing to someone, to move over with Flair to Smackdown.

Ric Flair's gimmick in the 80s and early 90s was that he was the playboy world champion. He never worked as a JTTS or someone not in the title hunt. His gimmick needed the world title for credibility. HHH does too, but the presentation of his character is awful. Flair was at least vulnerable and needed the Horsemen to save him. For HHH, it's as if he doesn't need anyone.



"Who ate my sandwich???"
RawLo
Salami








Since: 9.7.02
From: San Diego, CA

Since last post: 3523 days
Last activity: 2768 days
#33 Posted on
Not selling the spear is understandable...
But how the hell do you no-sell mace???
He sold it about as much as he sold the nWo cattle-prod jolts, courtesy of Scott Hall. It's a wash!



I was there....When Chris Jericho beat Austin and Rock in the same night to become the first ever Undisputed Champion!
(And for the incredible Eddie/ Edge "no DQ"!!!)
Devil's Advocate
Haggis








Since: 22.2.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 3298 days
Last activity: 3054 days
#34 Posted on

    Originally posted by asteroidboy

      Originally posted by Devil's Advocate

        Originally posted by asteroidboy
        I just don't like Goldberg. He comes across like an ass. His little "boy"s tacked on at the end of every phrase just seemed to indicated a total lack of respect for Jericho. Like when HHH would call him a "bitter little man." In a perfect world, guys as talented as Jericho would get a little bit more respect, but I take comfort that he's always managed to hang around and work programs with the big boys, at least.


      Why would Goldberg show "respect" to the guy who tried to have him ran over?



    Not respect in a storyline sense. His remarks conveyed a lack of respect for the man in real life. Which is true, if reports are to be believed. But keep that crap in the dressing room.



So you know what Bill was really saying, right? And exactly how did you divine this? Telepathy?



    Originally posted by rv581

    Ric Flair's gimmick in the 80s and early 90s was that he was the playboy world champion. He never worked as a JTTS or someone not in the title hunt. His gimmick needed the world title for credibility. HHH does too, but the presentation of his character is awful. Flair was at least vulnerable and needed the Horsemen to save him. For HHH, it's as if he doesn't need anyone.



But HHH almost always needs Flair to save him. Hell, he had to get himself disqualfied just to keep the belt at Judgement Day. I just don't see this unbeatable superman that HHH is supposed to be.



"...like the whole idea of a 'war on terrorism'. You can wage war against another country, or on a national group within your own country, but you can't wage war on an abstract noun. How do you know when you've won? When you've got it removed from the Oxford English Dictionary?" ~ Terry Jones

Unabashed HHH mark: because even megalomaniacs need love.
Lexus
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

Since last post: 19 hours
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#35 Posted on
The coyote goes... Okay, let me get this straight.

The Big Show is supposed to sell like mad when Spike Dudley spears him? If no, why not? Isn't the spear a finishing move? Matter of fact, if Terri Runnels starts doing the Banzai Drop and everybody sells it like it was a wrecking ball to the chest, I'm not supposed to think it's silly?

Last I checked, some moves have a distinct amount of credibility when pulled off by some, and next to none when pulled off by others. Seeing as how Jericho never does the spear, and Goldberg needed to support himself on the ropes while getting up, I see it as more of an oversell on Goldberg's behalf. I mean, so long as he was selling the mace, that's awesome.

However, if Goldberg was no selling the Lionsault or the Walls, then you'd have a complaint from me.



I own a Gamecube, and I own Eternal Darkness.
Evil Antler God
Potato korv








Since: 10.1.02

Since last post: 2757 days
Last activity: 883 days
#36 Posted on
Actually if Terri did a Banzai Drop she'd probably bend into a million different directions like Mr. Glass

(edited by Evil Antler God on 27.5.03 2119)


Anybody can kick people's asses. But it takes a true monster to kick people's asses AND breastfeed at the same time
- Excalibur05
dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 16 days
Last activity: 1 day
#37 Posted on
    Originally posted by rv581
    Ric Flair's gimmick in the 80s and early 90s was that he was the playboy world champion. He never worked as a JTTS or someone not in the title hunt. His gimmick needed the world title for credibility. HHH does too, but the presentation of his character is awful. Flair was at least vulnerable and needed the Horsemen to save him. For HHH, it's as if he doesn't need anyone.


See this is the sort of thing that peeves me. I have zero problem with people not enjoying HHH on TV, thats their porogative. But this right here is absolutely, unequivocably, 100% factually inaccurate and yet we frequently see it stated as fact.

Triple H has won precisely one, uno, ein PPV fight cleanly for the title and that was against Shawn Michaels. You got that, one singular fight he has won without interfernce from outside. How in the name of the wee man do you get from that to "its as if he doesnt need anyone".

Against RVD he needed Flair.

Against Kane he needed Flair.

In the elimination chamber he eliminated not a single solitary person (after everyone predicted he was gonn pin anywhere between 1 and 5) before having his finisher no sold and losing his title.

Against Michaels in 2/3 falls he won clean for the only time in his reign.

Against Steiner Mk I he needed Flair, a sledgehammer and a DQ to escape with the title.

Steiner Mk II he needed a belt shot, Flair, Batista, AND Orton, to retain.

Against Booker, he needed Flair to disable his opponent by smashing his knee of the ring steps before gaining the upper hand and retaining. Oh so the interference didnt lead directly to the loss within the next few seconds we hear.

Tell you what, if Lewis ever has a rematch with Tyson and Don King ran in in a SHOCKING SWERVE to smack Tysons knee with a baseball bat in round 5 before Lewis picked up the win in round 8 how many people do you think would say "Damn that Lewis had a fine win tonight"?

And finally, against Kevin Nash Trips needed a sledgehammer and a DQ to escape.

OK, rant over. If you could enlighten me as to how you reconcile that run of results with not needing anyone to help him I would be eternally grateful.

(edited by dMr on 28.5.03 1216)


asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1247 days
Last activity: 155 days
#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

    Originally posted by Devil's Advocate
    So you know what Bill was really saying, right? And exactly how did you divine this? Telepathy?


No, I did it with a forked fucking stick that's normally used to look for water.




-- Asteroid Boy


Wiener of the day: 23.7.02

"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex
"Was he no-selling?" - Me


JoeyFive81
Chaurice








Since: 28.5.03

Since last post: 3983 days
Last activity: 3981 days
#39 Posted on
I was kinda pissed when he totally no-sold Jericho's "spear". He stood right up after that, and let's not forget he was still maced at the time.
Battlezone
Potato korv








Since: 27.2.03
From: Seattle, Washington

Since last post: 1962 days
Last activity: 14 days
AIM:  
Y!:
#40 Posted on

    Originally posted by dMr
    Tell you what, if Lewis ever has a rematch with Tyson and Don King ran in in a SHOCKING SWERVE to smack Tysons knee with a baseball bat in round 5 before Lewis picked up the win in round 8 how many people do you think would say "Damn that Lewis had a fine win tonight"?



Not many, but that would be the best fight EVER. Plus, it might rekindle my interest in boxing...


    Originally posted by rv581
    One observation, though: Why isn't the WWE showing the footage of Jericho on WCW, calling Goldberg "Greenberg" and clowning around with Ralphus, celebrating his victories? That would interject into the feud the fact that this is something that's been brewing for a long time, not just another WWE insta-feud.


Because, in the WWE universe, if it didn't happen under their watch, it didn't happen. Somehow, I get the feeling that the backstory we got from Jericho on Monday is all we're going to get.



"So you're Ben Affleck. You're sitting next to Jennifer Lopez, who's your fiancee, you're eating a eight-foot high sundae, and members of the Boston Red Sox are coming up to you and asking for autographs. If that's not heaven, what is?" - Tony Kornheiser, PTI
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