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The W - Pro Wrestling - "Glass Ceiling" for former WCW and ECW?
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H-and-a-half
Weisswurst








Since: 27.7.03
From: New York

Since last post: 3977 days
Last activity: 3856 days
#1 Posted on
I heard from someone that nobody can win a WWE world title unless Vince McMahon had a personal hand in developing their character. In other words, everyone who came over from WCW and ECW (RVD, Booker T, Benoit, Nash, etc.) are pretty much barred from ever winning. The same goes for Kane (with the exception of a token one-day run), because the idea for his character was entirely the idea of Jacobs and Lawler. On the other hand, people like Y2J and the Big Show can win because they developed new personas when they came over.

Has anyone else heard this?
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Venom
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Since: 15.1.03

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#2 Posted on
It's not exclusive to Vince's creativity. The WWE just prefers to push it's own homegrown talent rather than big name castaways from other promotions. See, if they pushed someone like Booker T or Rob Van Dam fresh off of their stints in WCW or ECW, that would be admiting that someone other than the WWE could create great wrestlers and that maybe Bischoff and Heyman had had an ounce of booking genius in them after all.




"Shut up, dumbass"
H-and-a-half
Weisswurst








Since: 27.7.03
From: New York

Since last post: 3977 days
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#3 Posted on

    Originally posted by Venom
    It's not exclusive to Vince's creativity. The WWE just prefers to push it's own homegrown talent rather than big name castaways from other promotions. See, if they pushed someone like Booker T or Rob Van Dam fresh off of their stints in WCW or ECW, that would be admiting that someone other than the WWE could create great wrestlers and that maybe Bischoff and Heyman had had an ounce of booking genius in them after all.


I'll grant that much, but Chris Benoit has been with the company for 3 1/2 years. In any case, the fact that Kane has been denied the title for so long makes it hard for me to think there isn't some kind of politics going on.
madiq
Boerewors








Since: 27.7.03
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 2203 days
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AIM:  
#4 Posted on
Maybe the only type of politics is that which states that certain agendas are pushed to the forefront before others. Project Brock, Project HHH, and Project Kurt were prioritized over giving Benoit a token title reign. Booker T, as much as I love him, was not denied the title because of some anti-WCW bias; he was denied the title due to RACISM. :-) (just kidding; that'd be Eddie Guerrero). But seriously, I think that Jericho and Big Show are the exceptions that prove the rule. Former WCW stars can win the top strap, but only after being rehabilitated to the point that the WCW (and ECW) taint is washed away. I think that has happened for guys like Booker and Benoit, and Vince has never been as openly hostile to ECW as he has WCW, so RVD is ok as well...
Scott Summets
Sujuk








Since: 27.6.02

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#5 Posted on
I think the best answer to this is simply, are ECW or WCW wrestlers shit on in the WWE--obivously not. But, were ECW and WCW shit on during the Invasion, defintely.



Rorschach: "None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. You're locked up in here with me."
Matt Tracker
Scrapple








Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 4 hours
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#6 Posted on
I've always thought that the potential Benoit and Jericho reigns (along with others) were put aside because of the emergence of Kurt Angle. I don't think anyone realized just how good this guy could be, and they're wisely riding that horse 'til he drops.

Concerning the anti-WCW/ECW bias, where do you think Steve Austin wrestled before being discovered by Ted DiBiase? Same thing with Triple H and Nash and Flair.

If anything, the WCW/ECW guys who never held a significant title or enjoyed a lenghty reign should be pushed just to show the other organizations how they blew it with those guys.




"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#7 Posted on

    Originally posted by H-and-a-half
    In any case, the fact that Kane has been denied the title for so long makes it hard for me to think there isn't some kind of politics going on.


Yeah, but Kane hasn't really been that interesting since around his fued with X-Pac. He'd been treading water since then - over pretty much only for his cool entrance and pyro. Honestly, without starting any sort of HHH-conspiracy bullshit in this thread, I think he's pretty damn likely to win the belt before the year's over - if they don't drop the ball on this gimmick.

And what do you mean Glen Jacobs came up with the gimmick? Paul Bearer had been tormenting Undertaker with stories about Kane forever before they had even hired anyone to play the character. They built that debut up for at least eight months.



fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3169 days
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15

    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    I've always thought that the potential Benoit and Jericho reigns (along with others) were put aside because of the emergence of Kurt Angle. I don't think anyone realized just how good this guy could be, and they're wisely riding that horse 'til he drops.

    Concerning the anti-WCW/ECW bias, where do you think Steve Austin wrestled before being discovered by Ted DiBiase? Same thing with Triple H and Nash and Flair.

    If anything, the WCW/ECW guys who never held a significant title or enjoyed a lenghty reign should be pushed just to show the other organizations how they blew it with those guys.



Triple H, Austin, Nash were in WCW but they went under total character makeovers in WWF.

Someone like Rob Van Dam came in with an established persona and was over right away so Vince didn't create it. Same goes with Booker T. He was over right away but then they tried to change his gimmick, killed his heat for the longest time until they finally let him be the guy that got over in WCW. They tried to change Goldberg at first and almost killed his heat.

Vince still takes shots at WCW every chance he can get and has a very hard time admitting that they could have ever done anything right.
Matt Tracker
Scrapple








Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 4 hours
Last activity: 12 min.
#9 Posted on

    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    Triple H, Austin, Nash were in WCW but they went under total character makeovers in WWF.

    Someone like Rob Van Dam came in with an established persona and was over right away so Vince didn't create it. Same goes with Booker T. He was over right away but then they tried to change his gimmick, killed his heat for the longest time until they finally let him be the guy that got over in WCW. They tried to change Goldberg at first and almost killed his heat.

    Vince still takes shots at WCW every chance he can get and has a very hard time admitting that they could have ever done anything right.



And for that I can't blame him. However, he saw the business advantage of hiring Eric Bischoff.

Now that I think of it, he seems to have done so to put Eric in any emasculating position possible, furthering your argument.

So I see your point. But why in God's name try to prove how badly the other business ran its affairs by hurting your own business by ignoring the fans. That's what killed WCW.

I give up on Vince. He's a spooky old fart, and the roots of that supernatural hair has rewired his brain for spectacular disaster.




"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
H-and-a-half
Weisswurst








Since: 27.7.03
From: New York

Since last post: 3977 days
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#10 Posted on

    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard

      Originally posted by H-and-a-half
      In any case, the fact that Kane has been denied the title for so long makes it hard for me to think there isn't some kind of politics going on.


    Yeah, but Kane hasn't really been that interesting since around his fued with X-Pac. He'd been treading water since then - over pretty much only for his cool entrance and pyro. Honestly, without starting any sort of HHH-conspiracy bullshit in this thread, I think he's pretty damn likely to win the belt before the year's over - if they don't drop the ball on this gimmick.

    And what do you mean Glen Jacobs came up with the gimmick? Paul Bearer had been tormenting Undertaker with stories about Kane forever before they had even hired anyone to play the character. They built that debut up for at least eight months.



Maybe it was Paul Bearer -- I heard Lawler had a big involvement behind the scenes. My point was that it wasn't Vince, who often puts his ego before everything else.
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3169 days
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
Lawler was using Jacobs in Memphis under a hood as "Doomsday". I think he's the one who suggested/pushed the idea of bring Jacobs back to WWF as a masked character but I don't think he actually came up with the Kane character.
H-and-a-half
Weisswurst








Since: 27.7.03
From: New York

Since last post: 3977 days
Last activity: 3856 days
#12 Posted on
So, Paul Bearer or whoever comes up with the idea of a brother for Undi, and Lawler recommends Jacobs. Did they have someone else in mind for the part before, if they were promoting the debut of a brother before hiring anyone? The other guy who played the Undertaker (I forget his name)?
RKMtwin
Boudin rouge








Since: 1.3.02
From: Denver, Colorado

Since last post: 2090 days
Last activity: 1534 days
#13 Posted on
What dumbfounds me about the situation is that WCW and ECW are LONG GONE now. Those two organizations, at least by the look of thinks, will never come back.

And why couldn't WWE simply use whatever credibility those organizations had (may still have) to simply say that those wrestlers who came from ECW and WCW were simply building up their careers so they could get to WWE, as it is the ultimate destination/goal? Who would argue with WWE? Who could dispute WWE's claim? Fans?

If there is any evidence that lends to this glass-ceiling theory, look no further than Ric Flair. Despite the fact that he is arguably THE greatest World Champion of our time and of all time, he was made to look weak after he came in as the 50/50 owner of WWE. He was made to look weak after the brand split. And now he's HHH's lapdog. Go fig.



David Crockett sez it best, folks: "Look at 'im, Tony! Look at 'im!"

XPacArmy
Frankfurter








Since: 13.5.03
From: Woodbridge, VA

Since last post: 259 days
Last activity: 256 days
#14 Posted on

    Originally posted by H-and-a-half
    So, Paul Bearer or whoever comes up with the idea of a brother for Undi, and Lawler recommends Jacobs. Did they have someone else in mind for the part before, if they were promoting the debut of a brother before hiring anyone? The other guy who played the Undertaker (I forget his name)?


Do you mean the "fake" Taker when they had the Taker vs Taker match? If you do I think that Taker was Brian Lee formally Chaniz of DOA. And I think I read, maybe on 1Wrestling, that Lee was best man at Taker's weeding to Sara, his current wife.



Homer: I want to set the record straight: I thought the cop was a prostitute.
InVerse
Bierwurst








Since: 26.8.02

Since last post: 1 day
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#15 Posted on

    Originally posted by H-and-a-half
    So, Paul Bearer or whoever comes up with the idea of a brother for Undi, and Lawler recommends Jacobs. Did they have someone else in mind for the part before, if they were promoting the debut of a brother before hiring anyone? The other guy who played the Undertaker (I forget his name)?


According to legend, the original person considered to be the Undertaker's brother was Raven. Speaking of non-WWE big names being held back in the WWE...



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redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 386 days
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#16 Posted on
If there is a 'glass ceiling' it is placed on former world champions. A quick look at the history of the WWF/E:

AWA World Champs: None ever held the WWF/E World Title. Closest would be former Americas Champion Sgt. Slaughter winning the WWF Title.

ECW World Champs: None ever held the WWF/E World Title, or the WCW World Title. Closest would be Terry Funk, who was NWA Champ 15 years before winning the ECW Title.

NWA/WCW World Champs: Flair, Big Slug and Hogan are the only people to win (Buddy Rodgers was handed the belt in the 60's to job it to Bruno) the WWF/E World Title after holding the NWA/WCW World Title. Hogan had previous WWF/E World Title reigns before his WCW World Title, Flair disproves most rules in wrestling, and Big Slug is big.


By looking at history, it becomes apparent why it would be unique for a Booker T, (if they count it) Chris Benoit, or Rhyno to ever be WWF/E World Champ, as the company throughout its history has shied away from putting its main belt on someone who has worn the main belt for another company.




Will the woman who left her nine infants at Shea Stadium, please pick them up. They already scored six in the first off Tom Glavine, and know more letters of the alphabet than John Franco.
ges7184
Lap cheong








Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

Since last post: 79 days
Last activity: 1 day
#17 Posted on
But isn't this just a little misleading. It's not like the list of former World champions that competed in WWF/E afterwards is very long. And those that did, I'm hard pressed to think of many who really deserve much of a run at top.

I mean, I never got to see much ECW, but champs that I know about include guys like Mike Awesome, Justin Credible, and Tazz. Quite frankly, I don't think those guys much deserve a run at the top. I can wait and see about Rhyno, maybe some day, but right now it's hard to see him as a World champ.

As far as the AWA goes, only Curt Henning would have deserved a run. Rick Martel probably was just where he needed to be. The only other one I can think of right now is Jerry Lawler, and being from Tennessee, I'm kind of partial to Lawler, but he shouldn't be anywhere near the WWE title.

As far as WCW goes, Flair got a run. So did Big Show. And Hulk Hogan. Exactly who else deserved(s) one? Dusty Rhodes? Ronnie Garvin? Kevin Nash? So you pretty much got Goldberg and Booker T who haven't had a run yet, and a case could be made that they should. But maybe they will. But's that is today, not history.





Everything that is wrong in this world can be blamed on Freddie Prinze Jr.
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
Austin and Foley were made world champion, but keep in mind that their reigns came during the Monday Night Wars. In the case of Austin, he was so over that the WWF had to push him to the top simply because they needed every edge they could get over Nitro. I could argue that Foley's reigns were all pretty transitional, but he became so over that he was the ideal guy to have a short reign and not have the fans feel like it was a token run.



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CANADIAN BULLDOG
Andouille








Since: 5.3.03
From: TORONTO

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ICQ:  
#19 Posted on
I don't think Vince McMahon conciously sits back and says ``Well, Benoit is our best choice to be on top of the company right now, but on the other hand... he DID hold the world title in WCW, so forget it.''

Does he see Benoit, Booker, etc. INFERIOR to the guys WWE made into stars (eg HHH, Angle, Austin)? Absolutely. No arguments there from me. But if he thought that wrestler X would be best for business, he'd do it. Since, say, the title were unified a year-and-a-half ago, the world champions have been: Jericho, HHH, Hogan, Undertaker, Rock, Lesnar, Big Show, Shawn Michaels and now Angle. Five of those guys were in WCW at one point or another, with Jericho and Show making their names down South.

So I don't think that can be used as a reason -- a sole reason, anyways -- for holding people back.



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darkdragoon
Bockwurst








Since: 26.8.02

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#20 Posted on
There probably is some, but there's a lot of overvaluing the ecw and wcw guys as well by certain segments.

Although they might be pressured to say so, a lot of the guys now here felt like their organization wasn't even in the same league, and yeah, they do need to prove themselves.
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Love the little Ric Flair story in the article. Thanks for posting.
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