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The W - Current Events & Politics - George, George, George, what are you thinking? (Page 2)
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KingKyle
Pinkelwurst








Since: 24.4.02
From: Illinois

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#21 Posted on
Don't know if I agree with Bush or not, or if he convinced me or not.

But I really don't have a say, since I didn't vote last time. But I will definitely vote next time.
I'm just slightly PO'ed that 4 of my friends got activated and all 4 of them seem to not want to be involved...

So yeah, listening to him kinda bugs me. I'll just hope both sides don't lose too many lives.



There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who know binary, and those who don't.
HrdCoreJoe
Potato korv








Since: 29.4.02
From: Jax, FL

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#22 Posted on
"Florida will NEVER 'let it go' or 'live it down' for that matter."

Well, I hate to stir your pot anymore than it already has been, but I'm from Florida, I voted for Gore, and yes I DID let it go. If it helps, I still call the WWE the WWF, though. So keep fighting that power and see where it gets you!

P.S. It won't put Gore in office, so like the man said, get over it.




Andy Richter does indeed control the universe.
Cerebus
Knackwurst








Since: 17.11.02

Since last post: 29 days
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.74
I'm gonna put in my wiil that I want my epitaph to read "It's not MY fault, I voted for Gore", so that when the majority of us die cause of HIS incompetence, I'll get the last word on the subject.



Cerebus: Barbarian, Prime Minister, Pope, Perfect House Guest.

"Graft is as necessary as throwing up when you drink too much."
HrdCoreJoe
Potato korv








Since: 29.4.02
From: Jax, FL

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#24 Posted on
Or you could just get over it?
Life's too short to worry about doom-sayers such as yourself who are so quick to find the reason we're all going to die. Something tells me G.W. isn't that good of a scapegoat for this particular situation.
As for the epitaph, I'll believe it when I see it.



Andy Richter does indeed control the universe.
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 6 days
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
Here's an easy way for Bush to get everyone on his side...

If the USA has military intelligence that proves Iraq to be a threat beyond a shadow of a doubt, then FRIGGIN' SHOW IT TO US. Let's see the 2003 version of Adlai Stevenson at the United Nations in 1962, showing satellite photos of the missile silos in Cuba. Colin Powell and another Powerpoint presentation doesn't quite cut the mustard.

All we want is a straight answer, rather than this "America always fights for freedom" bullshit that Bush is always spewing. We need some facts.



Well Mr. Burns had done it.
The power plant had won it.
With Rogers Clemens clucking all the while.
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Softball.
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Mattingly and Canseco.
Ken Griffey's grotesquely swollen jaw.
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Ozzie and the Straw.
Michrome
Head cheese








Since: 2.1.03

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#26 Posted on
Did it ever occur to you that we might be keeping intelligence secret because we don't want enemies to know what we know? Just a thought.
CxMorgado
Boudin rouge








Since: 21.1.02
From: Boston MA is the rippen'ist town...

Since last post: 247 days
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#27 Posted on

    Originally posted by Michrome
    Did it ever occur to you that we might be keeping intelligence secret because we don't want enemies to know what we know? Just a thought.


But wouldn't our enemies already KNOW that they have weapons of mass destruction? And since we're about to go to war with them over it despite all appearances to the contrary, doesn't that mean that they KNOW that we know they have them? So if they know and we know, why would we not show the world that we aren't just whistling Dixie?

I mean, we aren't talking revealing our military strategy here, we're talking about showing beyond a shadow of a doubt that Iraq is preparing to blow someone or something off the map. The USA is looking like the bad guy here because Bush & co. have not made a clear cut and dry case for war. If they have real evidence, it should be on the damn table.



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dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 50 days
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#28 Posted on

    Originally posted by CxMorgado

      Originally posted by Michrome
      Did it ever occur to you that we might be keeping intelligence secret because we don't want enemies to know what we know? Just a thought.


    But wouldn't our enemies already KNOW that they have weapons of mass destruction? And since we're about to go to war with them over it despite all appearances to the contrary, doesn't that mean that they KNOW that we know they have them? So if they know and we know, why would we not show the world that we aren't just whistling Dixie?



I think the point of the argument is that if you reveal exactly what you know and how you know it to your enemies then they can learn a lot about how you're gathering intelligence. It may even jeaprodise the safety of Intelligence agents still operating abroad.

Quite why the US cant reveal this informtion to the likes of France, Germany, and most importantly the weapons inspectors I know not.

It seems kinda weak just to say "We know they pose a threat, but we can't tell you how we know it. But you can trust us. We're the goodies dont you know?"



"You dont appreciate a lot of stuff in school until you get older. Little things like being spanked every day by a middle aged woman: stuff you'd pay good money for these days."


One time undisputed Wiener of the day 2.11.02
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#29 Posted on
It's also a matter of the reliability of the information. If Bush were to stand up and list everything we know in full detail, in addition to the threat to any agents or informants we have over there, Saddaam then KNOWS exactly how much we do. Then he just moves his shit. Now that we have no idea where ANYTHING is anymore, it will be that much harder for us to target it in the initial attack (causing more death to US soldiers) and in the aftermath, it will be that much harder for us to find the stuff.

If you are looking for evidence, look to Powell's UN case. He revealed quite a bit there, and it was more than enough to not only prove Bush's case, but it definitly was, in the words of a Democratic Congressman, the tip of the iceburg.




CRZ
Big Brother
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Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#30 Posted on

    Originally posted by Cerebus
    I'm gonna put in my wiil that I want my epitaph to read "It's not MY fault, I voted for Gore", so that when the majority of us die cause of HIS incompetence, I'll get the last word on the subject.
Well, I guarantee you're not gonna get the last word HERE, so please stop bringing it up. I keep thinking if I just wait one more day, you'll get it and stop, but you haven't, so here I am telling you.

(This goes to all the people who should have known better than to respond, as well.)



©CRZ™
Rocket
Braunschweiger








Since: 12.2.03
From: Canada

Since last post: 4116 days
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#31 Posted on
If George or Powell would just show one single piece of evidence that wasn't immediately discredited it would go a long way to convince the fence-sitters. But if they keep bringing up wrong information (like the aluminum tubes that everyone says were for normal rockets, not uranium processing) no-one can take them seriously. The reason so many people around the world don't trust Bush is because he hasn't done anything to earn their trust. His blunt pigheaded mannerisms don't help either. He should try a little harder to talk like a grown man.
eviljonhunt81
Pepperoni








Since: 6.1.02
From: not Japan

Since last post: 2931 days
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#32 Posted on
I would just like to mention that North Korea is much more of a threat than Iraq, and has been for quite some time. To say that they're just "an issue" or whatever the exact wording was is ridiculous. They are bragging to the world that they have Nuclear weapons, and they shoot missles into the ocean every so often, apparently for fun. They kidnapped japanese citizens 20 years ago and used them for espionage purposes. To say that they are not a threat to us or or allies is ludicrous. Somebody said the reason we don't wont to fight them is because we'd lose more soldiers than we will in Iraq. I can't believe that that's a valid reason. When we were killing civilians in Afghanistan, we heard that death is a part of war, and innocent people will be hurt.



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oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1930 days
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#33 Posted on
I agree with eviljon here. Now that the WOMD case for attack is starting lose it's lustre and the "Saddam's A Tyrant So He must Go" argument is much more of a driving force in the decision, a whole new can of worms has been opened up. If we take out Iraq due to Saddam being an evil dictator who tortures his own people, then we're gonna be awfully busy mopping up the rest of the oppressed world too. You can't pick and choose which countries you want to liberate and which you don't-and please don't feed me the line about "We're only liberating Iraq because it's in the US's best interests to do so", because that train of thoughts frankly sickens me.

So we go in, depose Saddam, place another West-approved government organisation in place and go about our business. Where to then? Do we start up a conflict with North Korea? Not according to some of you, because that would mean "loss of American life". So you're only willing to stick up for your principles when an easy victory is assured?

Or how about we get in there remove Mugabe from power before he butchers any moe of his people? it's the same basic grounds for removal of Saddam-but of course, Mugabe's regime doesn't overtly affect us, so we can pretend it doesn't exist and let it go on.

Or we could simply sit on our asses and wait for the US-sponsored Iraq to uprise once again, and break away and become yet another West-created tyrannical nation. And in twenty years' time, we'll be right back where we started. It's all in the history, folks.



Hail To The King, Baby

Cerebus
Knackwurst








Since: 17.11.02

Since last post: 29 days
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.74
    Originally posted by eviljonhunt81
    They kidnapped japanese citizens 20 years ago and used them for espionage purposes.


The Japanese are not all that innocent either. Perhaps you've heard of the 'Shinjuku Skulls'. http://roswell.fortunecity.com/skulls/37/unit731.htm has a quite lengthy article about it. The Japanese slaughtered somewhere between 3 and 10 MILLION people during WWII, the majority of these being Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos. War's a bitch, but isn't that a tad overboard.

I'm most certainly NOT making excuses for anyone who does this type of stuff, but it's a little understandable if the Koreans can't stand the Japanese.

(edited by Cerebus on 9.3.03 0928)


Cerebus: Barbarian, Prime Minister, Pope, Perfect House Guest.

"Graft is as necessary as throwing up when you drink too much."
dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 50 days
Last activity: 18 hours
#35 Posted on

    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Or how about we get in there remove Mugabe from power before he butchers any moe of his people? it's the same basic grounds for removal of Saddam-but of course, Mugabe's regime doesn't overtly affect us, so we can pretend it doesn't exist and let it go on.


Its always astounded me that the UK government is willing to take such a comparatively hands off approach with regards to Zimbabwe.

As far as criteria for war goes you would think that "nation run by evil dictator evicting/killing many of your own countries citizens while starving their own people who deign to disagree with the regime" would pretty much fit the bill.

We'll probably have to wait until America decides they wantto do something about before we might actually get of our arses though. Sheesh.



"You dont appreciate a lot of stuff in school until you get older. Little things like being spanked every day by a middle aged woman: stuff you'd pay good money for these days."


One time undisputed Wiener of the day 2.11.02
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1213 days
Last activity: 1009 days
#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by spf2119
    I'm intrigued by the fact that Grimis basically says "PDRK scares the piss out of us, hence we're not attacking." I would ask though, you mention they would drop a nuke on Tokyo or Seoul if we attack? What reason do we have to believe they are not already planning this. We assume that they have basically dispensed with logic, so why should we assume a lack of concurrent aggression?

Basically it gets into realpolitik. Kim Il Jong wants to live as much as anything else. He wants to remain in power. Launching a preemptive strike on Seoul, or Tokyo, or even LA brings about massive retaliation. All the PDRK has to do is make us think they might use the bomb to try to get us to the table.


    Originally posted by spf2119
    Also one more question, you maintain China does not want the PDRK to have the bomb. I am not sure that I would agree with that. An armed PDRK would be able to act as a lever for China to use to push American interest away, as is already happening in Bush's equivocation last night about wanting China and Japan and SK and Russia to handle the issue along with us. When the hell did the U.S. ever worry about multilateralism when our security is at stake. China is loving the whole situation, and if they play their cards right could very well become the primary power broker in the region and have PDRK as a proxy front for any designs they may have one day on military action.

China's security interests really don't reevolve around the US first. Their primary threat is Russia. Just calculate the distance on their longest operational missiles and it's about range 10 or so miles beyond the distance from their silos to Moscow. Additionaly, war in the PDRK hurts their developing economy An armed PDRK does them no good but to provide destablization.

    Originally posted by oldschoolhero

    Or how about we get in there remove Mugabe from power before he butchers any moe of his people? it's the same basic grounds for removal of Saddam-but of course, Mugabe's regime doesn't overtly affect us, so we can pretend it doesn't exist and let it go on.


I've said it before; let's get him. It's amazing how little attention this gets, but I think it has something to do with media bias and the fact that it's the evil white man being slaughtered.



There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.
- Theodore Roosevelt, Ocotber 12, 1915
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 422 days
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#37 Posted on
In case no one's been paying attention, Bush has announced that he is freezing the assets of Mugabe and 96 of his associates. And of course, the reaction out of the Zimbabwe leadership is that its a racist action by Bush.
Oh well, at least Mugabe has Chirac as a friend.



I'll pay $49.95 for the Execute Bin Laden PPV. And I'll buy one of the lottery tickets at 10 bucks a pop to be the executioner.
dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 50 days
Last activity: 18 hours
#38 Posted on

    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    In case no one's been paying attention, Bush has announced that he is freezing the assets of Mugabe and 96 of his associates. And of course, the reaction out of the Zimbabwe leadership is that its a racist action by Bush.
    Oh well, at least Mugabe has Chirac as a friend.



This from the man that spoke of the need to fight the 'evil white man' a few months back. Clearly Bush is the racist.

I wasn't aware that Bush had frozen Mugabe's assets. I still maintain that this is an area where the UK should be taking a much more proactive stance though. This is one country where I would whole heartedly support the need for regime change



"You dont appreciate a lot of stuff in school until you get older. Little things like being spanked every day by a middle aged woman: stuff you'd pay good money for these days."


One time undisputed Wiener of the day 2.11.02
cranlsn
Liverwurst








Since: 18.3.02
From: Sussex, WI

Since last post: 121 days
Last activity: 5 hours
#39 Posted on

    Originally posted by Cerebus
    I guess I'm just a pacifist and don't believe in the need to use FORCE to get people to see things MY way.

    Treaties being forced on a nation to agree to so WE stop bombing the shit out of them just doesn't seem all that right to me. They don't have anywhere close to the armament we do, so of course we're gonna get what we want. Why don't we pick on some one our own size and stop being the school yard bully that we are.

    ...oh yeah, that's right, we ARE the biggest and strongest, so I guess we HAVE NO CHOICE but to go after the smaller kids.



This is just such a BAD analogy. If the "school yard bully" just leaves the other kids alone, they aren't going to band together and kill him on the playground.

If we leave Iraq and other despots to their own devices, they will attempt to kill many of us.

You make Saddam sound like such a victim...he brought this on himself. Unfortunately, the absence of war does NOT equal peace. Peace sometimes comes at a cost.






When all else fails, there's always the Simpsons.

Cerebus
Knackwurst








Since: 17.11.02

Since last post: 29 days
Last activity: 2 days
#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.74
    Originally posted by cranlsn
    This is just such a BAD analogy. If the "school yard bully" just leaves the other kids alone, they aren't going to band together and kill him on the playground.

    If we leave Iraq and other despots to their own devices, they will attempt to kill many of us.



You are absolutely right, this was an awful analogy.

...so would YOU like to tell this to the students at Columbine High School, Bishop Neumann High School, Santana High School, Fort Gibson Middle School, Martin Luther King Jr. High School, W. R. Myers High School... You should look these up and tell me this again. The kids getting picked on in our schools today are ALWAYS resorting to violence as retalation for getting picked on. But, yeah, I'm sure you're right.

Edit: Adding more schools after I hit the wrong button

(edited by Cerebus on 11.3.03 0113)


Cerebus: Barbarian, Prime Minister, Pope, Perfect House Guest.

"Graft is as necessary as throwing up when you drink too much."
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