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The W - Current Events & Politics - from "The West Wing" to real life
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godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3912 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.30
Howard Dean just unveiled a new campaign promise: a pretty damn huge student loans program for college students if he gets elected and rolls back the tax cuts.

His plan, the Dean College Commitment, provides hope to high school students and their families by broadening access to college by ensuring that, not later than middle school, students would develop a plan for their futures, including the courses they need to take in high school; families would receive an advance determination of their eligibility for federal financial aid; and they would have assistance in developing a savings plan for college expenses.

Then, upon graduating from high school, students would:

- Have access to $10,000 per year for postsecondary education - either traditional college or high-skills career training.

- Never have to pay more than 10% of their income after college on student loan payments (and even less if they enter service fields like nursing or teaching in high need areas).

- And, if they work and make these loan payments for 10 years the loans will be paid in full.

Those who enter public service professions will get a special bonus: Nurses, teachers, social workers, law enforcement officers, firefighters, and emergency medical technicians in high need areas would never pay more than 7 percent of their income.

The plan would also benefit Americans already in the workforce who are still making payments on student loans. If your payments on your undergraduate loans are more than 10% of your income, you will be eligible for a tax credit.


Let me say now the following things, to which I think most will agree:

1.) I'm not sure that the numbers will add up - Dean's campaign estimates the cost at 7.1 billion, but judging from the Canadian experience with provincial student loans and their cost estimates versus real life, that's probably understating the real costs by ten to twenty percent.

2.) You gotta admit, Dean's putting his money where his mouth is - his campaign is essentially predicated around the idea that people are willing to pay greater taxes for greater service. This is about as "greater service" as you can get short of grants, but the fact that it's a loan program (with interest) might please conservatives, I dunno.

3.) See, this is why I like having guys like Dean in the campaign - broader policy initiatives make for livelier politicking. I mean, you gotta admit, this election is already a hell of a lot more interesting than 2000's was.
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Nag
Landjager








Since: 10.1.03
From: Enter your city here

Since last post: 2184 days
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Y!:
#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.46
Well, about time somebody realized it was due time to bring the college loan system out of they year... 2000. Seeing as how tuition, at least here in Ohio, has skyrocketed nearly 100 percent in 3 years (Thank you Mr Taft) Loans just don't cover it, and unless your mom and dad are dead you aren't getting no other assistance. I really feel bad for the freshmen, who only get like 1400 for first year loans, so yeah pull 2300 out of your ass...boppers.

Guess I was fortunate to go when I did. And if this plan comes to be, I will be even more fortunate to know that my income at Wal-Mart will suffice.





Take a STAND against public health nazis
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 10 hours
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
Hopefully Dean's plan goes better in real life than it did on West Wing, since it was axed from the budget in the last episode.



Pepa: Hello. I'm the mother of the notorious Crossroads Killer. When my son comes home after one of his famous crimes, his clothes are just filthy.
[Pepa holds up a bloody shirt. The police arrive.]
Policia I Spot: Where are the clothes your son wore -
Policia II Spot: At the time of the murder?
[Pepa takes a clean shirt out of the dryer.]
Pepa: Right here. Sparkling clean.
Policia I Spot: No trace of blood.
Policia II Spot: Or guts.
Policia I Spot: Unbelievable!
[Pepa holds up a box of detergent.]
Pepa: Ecce Homo. It's unbelievable.

-- from "Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown"
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1276 days
Last activity: 1073 days
#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
So, we're going to raise taxes from the middle class to give the money straight back, less bureaucratic overhead, straight back to cover the costs of college. Man, why didn't I think of that!

The only way to get the costs of college under control is to actually cut spending at the colleges. And I'm not talking about from useful classroom stuff: the University System of Maryland has the 50 highest paid public employees in the state and over 50 make north of $250,000 a year.



Michrome
Head cheese








Since: 2.1.03

Since last post: 3839 days
Last activity: 2906 days
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
I find it laughable that this is some sort of "crisis". I handle it on my own, and I can't see why others don't as well. I work night shifts a lot of the time, a lot of morning shifts too, and I take out student loans to pay for my education. I don't have a scholarship, or anyone else helping, and I'm doing just fine at an undergrad school that isn't as cheap as it used to be. Why can't others do this if I can? Why should they get entitlements? Where does it say you're entitled to have someone else pay for your education?

This doesn't even adress the fact that outside of your first job, success in the private sector is based on how well you perform, not where you graduated from. There is a school that can meet everyone's needs, and the idea that I'm going to have to give more from my paycheck to pay for THIS when I know from firsthand experience that it can be done by anyone with a work ethic...makes me sick.
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 4 hours
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.87
    Originally posted by Grimis
    So, we're going to raise taxes from the middle class to give the money straight back, less bureaucratic overhead, straight back to cover the costs of college. Man, why didn't I think of that!

    The only way to get the costs of college under control is to actually cut spending at the colleges. And I'm not talking about from useful classroom stuff: the University System of Maryland has the 50 highest paid public employees in the state and over 50 make north of $250,000 a year.


Grimis, I think you would do well to examine more than just your university system. In Kansas, funding to universities, there are six in the state, has been flat or cut in each of the last seven years. Is there waste, probably, but I would be willing to wager much less than in most private industry. The faculty in my department has been cut from 42 to 34 in the last five years, yet we are exected to and have done more each year with fewer faculty and suport staff and almost no OOE money. The quality of our reseach, teaching, and extension has suffered because of this. We have to procure the money to do the things we are mandated to do through grants and other sources. Some of the shortfall has been made up through increasing tuition but it doesn't come close.

Our faculty have the honor of being number 48 in pay out of 50 land grant universities and at the bottom of the Big 12. We cannot attract and retain good young faculty due to the inabilty for salary increases to even come close to inflation even when it is low. Merit raises are few and far between.

As a nation, it is in our best interests to insure that all those who have the ability to perform go to college or some sort of post-high school training. We must have an educated workforce. Monies invested in higher education repay the country many times over. We are moving well beyond an industrial society and a highly trained, intellegent population is vital or we lose our standing in the world.

This is one time knee jerk conservatism is misplaced. Dean's plan may be flawed but we must make college affordable, we don't have a choice.

edit typo and clarification.

(edited by DrDirt on 15.11.03 2215)


Perception is reality
Michrome
Head cheese








Since: 2.1.03

Since last post: 3839 days
Last activity: 2906 days
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00

    Dean's plan may be flawed but we must make college affordable, we don't have a choice.


Right, because it's just that easy. We can wave a magic wand, and nobody will have to work hard to pay for their education anymore. Nobody will bear the costs, and it won't have any adverse effects. Have you considered running for the california state legislature?
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 19 hours
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
Look, I can appreciate your sentiment, having a similar story myself, took me 7 years to get through school - and a comparitively cheap one - though. But I also had the benefit of city with a reasonably cheap cost-of-living, no financial obligations other than myself, and the ablility to not count my parents income in my aid packages for the last three years. There's a lot of people out there that I know now that need to help out with their families' business (or otherwise pitch in), care for a child, and still manage to live in a very high cost-of-living city.

And despite a relative bargain price at my current (grad) school, I know a lot of people - undergrads and greads alike - who've had to drop out with the recent tuition increase - smart, capable, thrifty, hardworking people who just couldn't manage to make the numbers work anymore.

Also, college costs are increasing so rapidly, and so much above the rate of inflation, and financial aid is lagging behind so much, that we are going to hit a point in the near future where school is unaffordable for working-class families. Right now we're already placing a severe economic burden on our college graduates by having them graduate so much in debt - something that didn't happen in out parents' time. That means they're buying less, saving less, are going to take longer to afford their first home, and are generally being more of a drag on the economy. Putting some kind of cap on that debt makes good economic sense.

Grant money is few and far between nowdays, especially if you're under 24 and the govt. is still counting your parents income toward your aid package. Work study is a joke (I made more money workng at the gas station in college than I would have by taking a work study job). That leaves loans. At today's interest rates they're managable. I've consolidated mine at 3.5%, and am pretty happy with my payment schedule. But if rates go up in the future, that's going to be brutal for recent college grads -leading to more defaults, which ultimately comes out of your pockets and mine. And it also means that there needs to be incentives to enter public-sector jobs that pay less that graduates could make otherwise.

I'm glad to see SOMEONE out there start to talk about the elephant in the American Economy's room - the enourmous amount of personal and governmental debt that is eventually going to cripple the economy if something isn't done about it. With the GOP's current attitude being "what debt - that's just magical free money" at best, and "let's sacrifice the long-term health of our economy in order to get Bush re-elected" at worst, that leaves the Dems, and the only Dem I see at least trying to get a handle on this issue is Dean.

My gradparents - like many of yours out there - managed to vault themselves into the middle class because of quality, free higher education.
Mine through the CUNY system and G.I. Bill, two things that no longer provide a free higher education. Because of this, they and others have contributed immesurably to this country and its economy.

I'm seeing firsthand right now the kind of folks that are getting priced out of higher education, and it's very upsetting to see all that talent go to waste. It's also upsetting to see the kind of idiots that DO have an education, simply because their families were rich enough to afford it. It doesn't fill me with confidence for the future of this country's workforce at all.





What makes America great is best expressed by your average 83-year-old Brooklynite. Everything else is just people wanting your vote.
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 4 hours
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.87
    Originally posted by Michrome

      Dean's plan may be flawed but we must make college affordable, we don't have a choice.


    Right, because it's just that easy. We can wave a magic wand, and nobody will have to work hard to pay for their education anymore. Nobody will bear the costs, and it won't have any adverse effects. Have you considered running for the california state legislature?


No the point is that it is very hard, but we must address this issue. Working hard and earning your education makes it more valuable to you and you work harder. We ALL have to bear the costs. The costs to our society will be huge if we do not figure out how to educate our citizenry.

One of the complaints we recieve form parents and students is the number of foreign professors, TA's, and graduate students in general. Why you may ask are there so many? Simple, we don't have a pool of U.S. graduate students to choose from. Graduate education aint cheap and if you are lucky enough to be favored with an assistantship, you get a quick education in indentured servitude. Also, our kids in many fields graduating with a B.S. can make close to the wage that many colleges pay for people with PhD's startng out. Why further you education? Couple this with our penchant for immediate gratification and we are lucky we have any American grad students.

what is aslo funny is many of the groups opposed to any plan such as are part of the problem. It would be great if corporations would quit ripping off the government.

What made us the country we are in many ways is what happened after WWII. Millions of GI's returning from the war took advantage of the GI Bill and went to college on our dime. The return for each dime was several dollars. You may be as flippant as you wish but if we do not correct this problem, the brain drain will insure we lose our place as the preeminent country in the world. Our brain trust is aging and we are not replacing it.

It is embarassing that our country for all its resources has allowed this to happen.



Perception is reality
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1276 days
Last activity: 1073 days
#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
But the thing is this. College is not a birthright. A lot of people seem to think it is. Schools keep lowering admission standards, students sue schools becasue they can't meet the standards. It's all a mess.

Here are the problems with the costs of state university educations:
- Budget cuts from the state government
- Disgustingly high overhead(between public employee unions, the high number of non-essential staff, asininely high salaries. It's sick.)

And that's really it. The fact of the matter is that the cost of college has outpaced inlfation by several percent. And why? Especially at state schools. The fact of the matter is this; public schools(especially land grant schools) were created to education students. Not become non-teaching fiefdoms for overpaid, non-teaching professors and administrators.

(This doesn't take into account private schools: I went to a private school and you don't even want to talk about costs there)



DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 4 hours
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.87
    Originally posted by Grimis
    But the thing is this. College is not a birthright. A lot of people seem to think it is. Schools keep lowering admission standards, students sue schools becasue they can't meet the standards. It's all a mess.

    Here are the problems with the costs of state university educations:
    - Budget cuts from the state government
    - Disgustingly high overhead(between public employee unions, the high number of non-essential staff, asininely high salaries. It's sick.)

    And that's really it. The fact of the matter is that the cost of college has outpaced inlfation by several percent. And why? Especially at state schools. The fact of the matter is this; public schools(especially land grant schools) were created to education students. Not become non-teaching fiefdoms for overpaid, non-teaching professors and administrators.

    (This doesn't take into account private schools: I went to a private school and you don't even want to talk about costs there)


Grimis, you're of course correct in your statement that it is not a birthright. However, when new territoies were carved out, one thing considered essential was the formation of a system providing for schools within a three mile walk. They knew the new lands to be contributing states needed education. Then an education through the sixth grade often sufficed. Fo most of the 20th Century, a high school diploma was adequate. Now we need our young people to have some sort of port-secondary education. The real issue is the need for our country to find a way to do this or we're screwed.

As far as standards go, there are those of us in academia who keep pushing fr higher standards for admission and performance. One major reason this is a struggle is that students = money. Due to the quality of the students our public schools turn out it equals less students.

Want more teching professors, then quit basing tenure and promotion on research publications ad grant dollars. And honestly, very few professors overall are overpaid. Three degrees and 60+ hour weeks should be worth more than what most make.

I am a professor at a land grant school. If you look closely at our mission, educating students is just one component along with agricultural research and improving quality of life for everyone.



Perception is reality
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 19 hours
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
The idea of de-coupling research and development with higher education is something they do in Europe. There, Universities are for educating and they have separate think-tank kind of institutes for the R&D and such. It's an interesting system.

The American idea of coupling these two things is based on this: you want the brightest minds teaching. Which is not an unreasonable idea. It costs to get the brightest minds. What would you consider an "asininely high salary?"

Public institutions have their budgets approved either by the legislature, or by people appointed by the governor, or by some kind of combination of both. Unfortunately, as with everything related to politics, this generally ensures a good amount of fat in the budget. Probably much less than in your average corporation, but it's there none the less.

I think you would find, as all Republicans do, that's it's very easy to talk about the vageries of "cut waste, high overhead, yadda yadda" and much more difficult when actually faced with reality. I hear a lot of Republicans go on and on about this. I have yet to see one actually do any budget cutting.



What makes America great is best expressed by your average 83-year-old Brooklynite. Everything else is just people wanting your vote.
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 1 day
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
    Originally posted by MoeGates
    The American idea of coupling these two things is based on this: you want the brightest minds teaching. Which is not an unreasonable idea. It costs to get the brightest minds. What would you consider an "asininely high salary?"


The larger problem is the brightest minds do not necessarily make the best teachers - or the best departments. Talk to some Computer Science majors at UC Santa Barbara - which has an outstanding CS department - about how much they learned from these "brightest minds".



"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees

"Finally, a candidate who can explain the current administration's position on civil liberties in the original German."
- Bill Maher on Arnold Schwarzenneger

"You know, I'm a follower of American politics."
- President George W. Bush, 8 Aug 2003
bash91
Merguez








Since: 2.1.02
From: Plain Dealing, LA

Since last post: 806 days
Last activity: 13 hours
#14 Posted on
    Originally posted by Leroy
      Originally posted by MoeGates
      The American idea of coupling these two things is based on this: you want the brightest minds teaching. Which is not an unreasonable idea. It costs to get the brightest minds. What would you consider an "asininely high salary?"


    The larger problem is the brightest minds do not necessarily make the best teachers - or the best departments. Talk to some Computer Science majors at UC Santa Barbara - which has an outstanding CS department - about how much they learned from these "brightest minds".


Amen! Preach on Brother Leroy.

Moe, I'd argue that the American idea is problematic on multiple levels. First, you don't want the brightest minds teaching, you want them doing. If, as part of that doing, whatever it may be, people are learning, that's a wonderfully serendipitous outcome but that shouldn't be the primary focus of the doing. Put another way, if the brightest minds are teaching, who's doing, because the brightest aren't if they are doing a decent job teaching. I'm only teaching two classes this semester, both introductory courses that I've taught before, and I put in about 35-40 hours weekly between prep, grading, commute, dealing with the myriad of problems faced by returning students, and actual classroom time. When I was teaching 5 classes a couple of years ago, I was routinely putting in 75-80 hour weeks. Given that kind of a workload, it's hard to envision someone being able to do lots while teaching more than 100 level courses.

Second, you mistakenly assume that most universities actually value teaching. They don't. Actually being a decent teacher generally ranks a distant third behind publications and service when it comes time for tenure boards. Several years ago, circa 1993-4, a good friend of mine was denied tenure shortly after winning a university wide award for teaching excellence simply because he didn't have enough publications at the time of his review. He was told that what really mattered at that land grant research university was how much he could publish and how much grant money he could raise as a result of those publications, not if undergraduates liked him or learned from him. While I'd like to believe that this was an isolated incident, my own experience and what I've learned from other instructors at four different schools in two states seems to indicate that this type of behavior is the norm rather than the exception. I don't mean to suggest that you won't find good teachers who genuinely care about their students and what they are learning inside your average university but I most assuredly am suggesting that those people are there in spite of the system rather than because of it.

Third, I wouldn't begrudge an "asininely high salary" to professors if they were the ones who actually taught. Unfortunately, both Grimis and the good Dr. are correct in noting that the ones who get those high salaries are the ones who either aren't teaching well or aren't teaching at all. The highest paid professor in my graduate program "taught", very badly, one graduate course a semester and would occasionally pick up an upper level undergraduate class. However, he could, and did, play politics with the very best of them.

There's more I could say, but I think my bitterness at discovering that killing my students will get me fired may be coloring my commentary so I'll stop for the moment.

Tim





"Verhoeven's _Starship Troopers_: Based on the back cover of the book by Robert Heinlein."
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1276 days
Last activity: 1073 days
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by MoeGates
    What would you consider an "asininely high salary?"
Look, when an assistant professor of Meteorolgy at U of M makes over $200K, I think that's a tadexcessive.

I'm looking for the full USM list.

EDIT: Here's more:

For example, 75 administrative employees offer "institutional support" at the College Park campus alone. In fiscal year 2003, their salaries ranged from $100,305 to $357,999.

In addition to housing, cars and other perks, college presidents make between $167,094 and $434,228 annually, which is substantially more than the salary of the governor, who earns $137,500.

And then there is the university system office, with a chancellor, two vice chancellors, three assistant vice chancellors, nine associate vice chancellors, and 11 directors who made a combined $3.17 million in salary during fiscal year 2003. Meanwhile, the Maryland Higher Education Commission, another state entity separate from USM but which also has oversight of higher education, has a total of 80 employees earning $4.2 million in salary.


(edited by Grimis on 18.11.03 0716)


DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 4 hours
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.87
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by MoeGates
      What would you consider an "asininely high salary?"
    Look, when an assistant professor of Meteorolgy at U of M makes over $200K, I think that's a tadexcessive.

    I'm looking for the full USM list.

    EDIT: Here's more:

    For example, 75 administrative employees offer "institutional support" at the College Park campus alone. In fiscal year 2003, their salaries ranged from $100,305 to $357,999.

    In addition to housing, cars and other perks, college presidents make between $167,094 and $434,228 annually, which is substantially more than the salary of the governor, who earns $137,500.

    And then there is the university system office, with a chancellor, two vice chancellors, three assistant vice chancellors, nine associate vice chancellors, and 11 directors who made a combined $3.17 million in salary during fiscal year 2003. Meanwhile, the Maryland Higher Education Commission, another state entity separate from USM but which also has oversight of higher education, has a total of 80 employees earning $4.2 million in salary.


    (edited by Grimis on 18.11.03 0716)


First, there is another reason that teaching and research are coupled in our system. The theory is that in order to provide you students withthe best education you must e current in your field, esp. science and engineering. Therefore in theory you must be a resaercher to be a good teacher. That's the theory.

Grimis, as Carl Sagan always said, "The plural of anectode is not data." Your example is infuriating of course but not representative of the whole reality. The proof is in the pudding and most of the pudding's salary sucks for their background and experience.



Perception is reality
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 1 day
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by MoeGates
      What would you consider an "asininely high salary?"
    Look, when an assistant professor of Meteorolgy at U of M makes over $200K, I think that's a tadexcessive.

    I'm looking for the full USM list.

    EDIT: Here's more:

    For example, 75 administrative employees offer "institutional support" at the College Park campus alone. In fiscal year 2003, their salaries ranged from $100,305 to $357,999.

    In addition to housing, cars and other perks, college presidents make between $167,094 and $434,228 annually, which is substantially more than the salary of the governor, who earns $137,500.

    And then there is the university system office, with a chancellor, two vice chancellors, three assistant vice chancellors, nine associate vice chancellors, and 11 directors who made a combined $3.17 million in salary during fiscal year 2003. Meanwhile, the Maryland Higher Education Commission, another state entity separate from USM but which also has oversight of higher education, has a total of 80 employees earning $4.2 million in salary.


    (edited by Grimis on 18.11.03 0716)


You really need to seperate what a Professor makes and what an administrator makes. I completely agree, administrators make WAY to much money for what they do - and most universities (at least the UC system here in California) - justify these high administrative salaries by saying they must "remain competitive" with the private sector. I think they are utterly full of shit, but that's what they are saying.

And if you do come across a professor making over $70k, chances are they are doing some outside research that's heavily funded (and usually has some DoD application) - engineering, computuer science, physics, etc. They get their research funded - with a salary that is in addition to what the University is paying them - and their base salaray goes from $40k to $80k just for supervising the project ('cause grad students will be doing the dirty work for pennies comparatively).

The main probelm - Universities have started modeling themselves after corporations - with those on top who little of the actual teaching (aka work) and simpy shove paper from one side of the desk to the other - and those who deal most with students (staff, T.A.s, lecturers) getting barely a living wage. Professors reside somewhere in the middle.



"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees

"Finally, a candidate who can explain the current administration's position on civil liberties in the original German."
- Bill Maher on Arnold Schwarzenneger

"You know, I'm a follower of American politics."
- President George W. Bush, 8 Aug 2003
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 4 hours
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.87
Leroy, you make some good points. Conservatives said for years that we must adopt a business model for universities, etc. Well we are in that mode and now they squak about costs, etc. Want more professors teaching, then allow them to do more than spend their time seeking money to support research and supervising labs. It is sad that so many excellent teachers and researchers have been reduced to being paper shuffling administrators.

Education is not a business, it is a philosphy. Should it be run responsibly and as efficiently as possible? Of course. But if the teaching and research were under the model we have today for most of history, most of the great accomplisments that have radically changed our lives may not have occured. Science and education are journeys of exploration not sales transactions.

And those who think that those of us in academia have no idea of the real world, wrong. Universities are often more bloody and cutthroat than most businesses.



Perception is reality
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 19 hours
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
A professor of mine once told me "University Politics are so cutthroat because so little is actually at stake."

Anyway, more on the subject:

Click Here (villagevoice.com)



What makes America great is best expressed by your average 83-year-old Brooklynite. Everything else is just people wanting your vote.
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 1 day
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
    Originally posted by MoeGates
    A professor of mine once told me "University Politics are so cutthroat because so little is actually at stake."

    Anyway, more on the subject:

    Click Here (villagevoice.com)


Funny...

We had a professor who left the University to run for congress (and won) because he "wanted to get out of politics".



"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees

"Finally, a candidate who can explain the current administration's position on civil liberties in the original German."
- Bill Maher on Arnold Schwarzenneger

"You know, I'm a follower of American politics."
- President George W. Bush, 8 Aug 2003
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It seems that people want someone who stands for the ideals of the Republican party, but that candidate does not seem to exist. All of the declared (and potential)
- Mike Zeidler, Bristol"Knows"Best? (2011)
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