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The W - Current Events & Politics - Free Health care BS (Page 2)
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Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 114 days
Last activity: 114 days
#21 Posted on
Was there a point to that?

-Jag

edit/ I read that again, and wanted to type a lot of things in CAPS, but I thought better of it and decided not to.

1) I never said anything about the Air Force, Osama bin Laden, or bake sales.

2) None of those things have anything to do with the topic at hand, yet you brought them up anyway.

3) Personally, I think it's kind of stupid to post when you don't actually have anything to say. (Of course, I'm guilty of this too at times)

4) I was simply suggesting what I thought was a viable solution to the problem of illegal immigrants in our country. If you don't like the suggestion, I'd be happy to hear your opinion on what would be better.

5) I don't remember what #5 was. Actually, now I do. You were right at one point there Palp. It would be a great day when our schools have all the money they need. Right on, man.

(edited by Jaguar on 24.12.02 0023)

War is when you kill people with no names.
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#22 Posted on
I think it is really dangerous to take the leap that "people came here for jobs in the past, so we should allow it to continue." The point is that we really do need to have a means of controlling how many, who, and why people come into our nation. A completely open door can and is disaterous for our economy, available jobs for people here already, and our state and national services. It is also a security nightmare.
When my ancestors came to this country, they did so legally. They waited where they were supposed to wait, filled out all of the forms that they were supposed to, learned English (the language that we use here in this nation), and they adopted this nation as their own by remouncing their allegiance to their former nation. The illegals here now did none of those things.
SOmeone said earlier that it was impossible for Fox to use the illegals here to influence public policy. Are you blind? Look what he is doing now! He has Bush eating out of his hand on the matter of "Amnesty" for illegals already here. If Bush even suggests that we should do a crack-down on immigrants who are in this nation illegally, he would be branded instantly as "anti-Mexican" and "Racist." He would be plagued by a PR nightmare. Fox IS using the illegals in this country to influence public policy.
Suggesting that we insist that people follow the rules to come to this country is a long way from suggesting that we should allow no-one to come here. I am all for immigration. A lot of the people who come to this country are some of the most hard working and motivated people I have ever encountered. They become a resource that this country can make use of, and we all become stronger as a result.
There is a long line of people waiting to come to this nation, all of which would willingly do any and everything that the pro-amnesty crowd claims that the illegals here now do that is so vital to this country. I say kick the illegals out and let the people who have been waiting in line in!
I mean really, it is just like a movie. There are so many seats in a theater, and everyone wants to see the film. Some people do as they are supposed to and buy tickets and wait in line. Then there are those who sneak in the theater. Nothing worse than buying a ticket to a movie you really have been waiting to see and then not being able to find a seat because some asshole snuck in the back door, so now the theater is full. Too bad, wait for the next show!
So what, do we give the theater hopper amnesty, saying "We all should see this movie! You saw this movie, why can't he?" Hell no! You throw the bastard out on his ass. Sure, he can come back and see it another day, but he has to STAND IN LINE and BUY A TICKET. That is all I am asking people who want to come into this country to do. And if you come in the back door, and get killed by some angry rancher in Arizona, or die in the desert from dehydration, or your boat sinks, or you get busted by the border patrol or INS, I am sorry, but I do not feel bad. I would rather have the people that have the respect for our country to come in legally than that trash.




My attempt at a webpage


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MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 6 days
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.02
Well, my great-granpa one day just walked over the bridge from Windsor, CA to Detroit and didn't go back, and I turned out just fine, speaking English and everything.

Our Nation's dirty little sectret is that we actually NEED all the illegal immigrants. Whole industries would collapse without the labor. It's factored into everything.

It's not like we say "we need 100 people. We give out 100 visa. Everyone else is illegal. We need them out."

We say "We need 100 people. We give out 50 visas, because the INS is too understaffed to handle 100. Also, those other 50 people without green cards aren't going to make a fuss about minimum wages, OSHA, or any of that other stuff. And if they do, we have the 'deportation' thing hanging over their heads. So, as a result, I can buy socks for 2 dollars a dozen, and fruit's pretty cheap too."

I don't have problems with people of any particular race. I just have problems with lawbreakers.

This "it's illegal, end of story" arguement is such bullshit. Go turn in the next guy who dubs a tape from you. Or fires up a joint. Or gets a blowjob in Georgia. Or does any one of the millions of little "illegal" things that we wink and nod at every day.




It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Aphrodite, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Spider-Man, and Boston.
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 114 days
Last activity: 114 days
#24 Posted on
Now while I agree that a large portion of our economy is based on illegals working for less than minimum wage, I think "selective enforcement" is complete and absolute bullshit. If we have laws, and they've become useless or outdated over time, then we should get rid of them instead of simply not enforcing those laws anymore. If you truly want to stop illegal immigration, then make an effort to stop the businesses that hire them. Sure our economy might take a hit, but at least we'll be obeying the laws we've got, and if it turns out those laws are hurting our nation, then we could change them. I'd much prefer streamlining our government and our laws for modern times than just turning a blind eye on laws that no longer work for us.

-Jag



War is when you kill people with no names.
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 22 days
Last activity: 1 day
#25 Posted on
There has been some discussion of the costs of immigration and the idea that we need to police the border more aggresively. Here are a couple of links to more information:

The first is an excerpt from a Cato study that looks at the fiscal impact of immigration: http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-imtax.html. There is a brief section about the fiscal impact of illegals, which they estimate to be a positive impact. As a caveat, they really don't give much detail about their methodology so I'd take these numbers with a grain of salt. So, according to this study, illegal aliens do pay more in taxes than they receive in services and transfer payments. Just because they do not pay federal income tax does not mean they do not pay any tax (sales tax, anyone?) or contribute to the public coffers. In fact, given their low income, Iíd argue that even if they were legal they still would not pay federal income tax so that is a specious argument.

Here (http://econpapers.hhs.se/paper/nbrnberwo/7054.htm) is a study from the National Bureau of Economic Research that concludes that increased enforcement along the border does not have a significant impact on illegal immigration. It seems to me that this issue deserves a little more than simply saying it's illegal and we need to stop it (and that we don't care if people are killed or die attempting to cross the border illegally. Hey--recreational drug use is illegal so it would be ok if everyone who tries heroin or cocaine or marijuana overdoses and dies. Cripes, how much does this cost our health care system? We should deny them access to medical care also. They should all just be happy sober and we should require all potential patients to prove their sobriety and resident status before we grant them access to health care.) The other main conclusion is that illegal immigration has a slight negative impact on U.S. wages. I donít have a study with a more detailed breakdown at my fingers, but the impact of immigration generally varies by educational levels where relatively uneducated natives suffer from a negative impact while more educated natives receive a positive impact from illegal immigration (which is also true for legal immigration). Also, there is a list of references at the end of the paper if you want to find more information.

Lastly, this whole argument about Fox having Bush in his pocket is groundless. Just because Bush supports amnesty for illegals does NOT mean that Fox has him eating out of his hand. Does that mean that everyone who supports amnesty for illegals is some sort of tool for Fox? Or is an illegal alien? That's absurd. And, finally, English is NOT the official language of the U.S. and is not the only language used; it is one of many languages used (albeit the most common). I've said it before and I'll say it again: No one HAS to learn or use English (but it will make their life in the U.S. much, much easier)

EDIT: For clarity (I hope)

(edited by Corajudo on 24.12.02 1311)
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by Corajudo
    Hey--illegal drug use is illegal so it would be ok if everyone who tries heroin or cocaine or marijuana overdoses and dies.

Sounds like a plan to me...



What kind of disjointed society do we live in if Merry Christmas is Politically Incorrect?
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 22 days
Last activity: 1 day
#27 Posted on

    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by Corajudo
      Hey--illegal drug use is illegal so it would be ok if everyone who tries heroin or cocaine or marijuana overdoses and dies.

    Sounds like a plan to me...



Strange, I thought you were a Bush supporter...
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    Well, my great-granpa one day just walked over the bridge from Windsor, CA to Detroit and didn't go back, and I turned out just fine, speaking English and everything.

    Our Nation's dirty little sectret is that we actually NEED all the illegal immigrants. Whole industries would collapse without the labor. It's factored into everything.

    It's not like we say "we need 100 people. We give out 100 visa. Everyone else is illegal. We need them out."

    We say "We need 100 people. We give out 50 visas, because the INS is too understaffed to handle 100. Also, those other 50 people without green cards aren't going to make a fuss about minimum wages, OSHA, or any of that other stuff. And if they do, we have the 'deportation' thing hanging over their heads. So, as a result, I can buy socks for 2 dollars a dozen, and fruit's pretty cheap too."

    I don't have problems with people of any particular race. I just have problems with lawbreakers.

    This "it's illegal, end of story" arguement is such bullshit. Go turn in the next guy who dubs a tape from you. Or fires up a joint. Or gets a blowjob in Georgia. Or does any one of the millions of little "illegal" things that we wink and nod at every day.



Equating illegal immigration with illegal head is absurd. If you get illegal oral sex in Georgia, you might get VD. It doesn't involve me. If you let a bunch of terrorists over the border along with those other hard-working Mexicans, however, it does affect me. The point: Immigration laws are legitimate and neccessary, for reasons having nothing to do with a bunch of (relatively) innocent laborers.



Damn your eyes!
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 22 days
Last activity: 1 day
#29 Posted on

    Originally posted by PalpatineW

      Originally posted by MoeGates
      Well, my great-granpa one day just walked over the bridge from Windsor, CA to Detroit and didn't go back, and I turned out just fine, speaking English and everything.

      Our Nation's dirty little sectret is that we actually NEED all the illegal immigrants. Whole industries would collapse without the labor. It's factored into everything.

      It's not like we say "we need 100 people. We give out 100 visa. Everyone else is illegal. We need them out."

      We say "We need 100 people. We give out 50 visas, because the INS is too understaffed to handle 100. Also, those other 50 people without green cards aren't going to make a fuss about minimum wages, OSHA, or any of that other stuff. And if they do, we have the 'deportation' thing hanging over their heads. So, as a result, I can buy socks for 2 dollars a dozen, and fruit's pretty cheap too."

      I don't have problems with people of any particular race. I just have problems with lawbreakers.

      This "it's illegal, end of story" arguement is such bullshit. Go turn in the next guy who dubs a tape from you. Or fires up a joint. Or gets a blowjob in Georgia. Or does any one of the millions of little "illegal" things that we wink and nod at every day.



    Equating illegal immigration with illegal head is absurd. If you get illegal oral sex in Georgia, you might get VD. It doesn't involve me. If you let a bunch of terrorists over the border along with those other hard-working Mexicans, however, it does affect me. The point: Immigration laws are legitimate and neccessary, for reasons having nothing to do with a bunch of (relatively) innocent laborers.



Terrorists have way too much money to choose to cross the Mexican border to enter the U.S. It's much easier to cross from Canada. If that's your biggest concern about illegal immigration, you need to turn your attention to the northern border and to the airports (where someone can enter with a tourist visa).
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
Or, why not turn our attention to both borders? Is it too much to ask that EVERYONE who enters this country does so legally? Again, I'm not neccessarily closed to the idea of letting current illegal workers become legal workers, but the current system just isn't working. If you want all the benefits of being an American citizen, then become one.



Damn your eyes!
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#31 Posted on
There is a little thing in this country called an unemployment rate. At any one time, there are countless people (usually expressed as a percentage of the population) who have NO JOB. You say that our economy relies on these illegal immigrants? I say that is BS. We as taxpayers pay for unemployment benefits that we would not have to if these people had jobs, and there are jobs being filled by people who do not belong here. Oh, and instead of putting that money back in our economy- in the case of the Mexican illegals, they are sending it back to Mexico. Dollars earned by illegals and sent back to Mexico accounts for 1/3 of their GNP!!! This is not money that is being taxed, as federal income or sales tax. It is just being sucked out of our economy and given to Mexico. Why do you think that there was such a stink about allowing Mexicans in California, Arizona, and Texas to VOTE in the Mexican election? These people represent a huge economic force in Mexico, and Fox sucessfully tapped it to win his election.
Hell yes, Bush is eating out of Fox's hand. In any other issue, I support Bush. But when Fox is whining about how Amnesty for illegals should be a top priority, while at the same time refusing to extradite a California cop-killer, who fled to Mexico, who we know the EXACT location of- If I were Bush I would at least be putting pressure the other way. You want amnesty for these people here? How about giving us the guy who killed one of our cops. But no, he has not even asked, and Fox would not even relent, because not only do we support the Death Penalty, but we also support Life in prison! So the are unwilling to give us ANYTHING in exchange for forgiving the crime of invasion these people have committed.
These people do not want to be American. They are Mexican nationals. They come here, some for a job, get paid, and send the money all back to Mexico. If Mexico became hostile towards us, it is not the banner of the United States banner that they would flock to.
The border is there FOR A REASON. We are supposed to protect it, and control who crosses it. While there might be problems in INS, that is no reason to support a trashing of the laws. You fix the problem, instead of causing another one.
I do support the tightening of BOTH borders, but to be honest, there is a far greater problem of illegal immigration occurring through the south. And the terrorists ARE coming in that way to- and the Coyotes even have an asking price- if you are of Arab descent and you want to be snuck into the US, it will cost you $60,000. And there have been plenty of takers...

(edited by Pool-Boy on 24.12.02 1140)

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MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 10 hours
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.02
There is a little thing in this country called an unemployment rate. At any one time, there are countless people (usually expressed as a percentage of the population) who have NO JOB. You say that our economy relies on these illegal immigrants? I say that is BS. We as taxpayers pay for unemployment benefits that we would not have to if these people had jobs, and there are jobs being filled by people who do not belong here.

Fine. The next time you're unemployed I expect to see you in the California valley picking grapes for 2 dollars an hour. And isn't it a bedrock of conservative thought that anyone who wants a job can get one if they're willing to work?

Dollars earned by illegals and sent back to Mexico accounts for 1/3 of their GNP!!!

Look, while I agree the biggest negative economic consequence to immigration is repatriation of money, you're going to have to give me a link to back up that assertation. Especially with three exclamation points.



It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Aphrodite, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Spider-Man, and Boston.
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#33 Posted on

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    There is a little thing in this country called an unemployment rate. At any one time, there are countless people (usually expressed as a percentage of the population) who have NO JOB. You say that our economy relies on these illegal immigrants? I say that is BS. We as taxpayers pay for unemployment benefits that we would not have to if these people had jobs, and there are jobs being filled by people who do not belong here.

    Fine. The next time you're unemployed I expect to see you in the California valley picking grapes for 2 dollars an hour. And isn't it a bedrock of conservative thought that anyone who wants a job can get one if they're willing to work?

    Dollars earned by illegals and sent back to Mexico accounts for 1/3 of their GNP!!!

    Look, while I agree the biggest negative economic consequence to immigration is repatriation of money, you're going to have to give me a link to back up that assertation. Especially with three exclamation points.


Why should anyone in this country work for $2 an hour? That is why we have the minimum wage. If that was the only job I could find, however, hell yeah I would be digging bedrock. Whatever puts food on the table.
And I will find that link. I heard it in a radio report, not online, so I will have to do some digging. But that stat comes from the Mexican government itself....



My attempt at a webpage


You are DeadPool!


Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 114 days
Last activity: 114 days
#34 Posted on
Pool-Boy, that's why companies keep hiring illegals. Because the don't have to pay them minimum wage. In jobs like those which require little in the way of technical skills, and just lots of manual labor, it is much cheaper to hire a bunch of illegals than to hire actual American citizens. This is the root of the problem. If illegal immigrants couldn't get work here, then there'd be no reason for them to come. Spending more money on closing our borders is good when you're talking about keeping terrorists out, but it would be helped if we could stop the flow of illegal immigrants that come across too. And to do that, we have to make it harder to employ them.

-Jag

Of course, when you talk about stopping terrorists from entering our borders, we'll only really be able to stop ones who: 1)Already have a criminal record, 2) Are carrying arms, or some kind of plans for terrorist action, or 3) Are carrying false papers. We still won't be able to stop the smart ones who don't fit any of those three profiles.



War is when you kill people with no names.
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 22 days
Last activity: 1 day
#35 Posted on
Pool-Boy: I seriously doubt that illegal immigrants are sending one-third of Mexico's GDP across the border. This would be approximately 200 billion dollars, or approximately ten times the amount of currency in circulation in Mexico (data are courtesy of the Mexican central bank, an address for the English version of their website is: http://www.banxico.org.mx/siteBanxicoINGLES/index.html). I don't see how you can possibly determine how much money is being sent across the border, especially since most of it is in cash and is therefore untraceable (at least for the purposes of accurate data collection). However, I'd love a source for those data because it would be very beneficial.

Fox isn't extraditing the accused cop killer because Mexico does not support the death penalty and that is a possible punishment. It violates his basic civil rights as a Mexican citizen (you'll love that!) so he cannot (as a Mexican citizen) be extradited under those circumstances.

Also, as I have pointed out before, how do you propose to seal the border? It seems to me to be more efficient to spend more time and resources targeting the businesses hiring these illegal immigrants. As far as sealing the phsical border, I simply don't think it's possible, especially with the high level of trade between the U.S. and Mexico. If a tyrant like Saddam Hussein or Kim Il Jong cannot seal their much smaller borders, how would a democracy like the U.S. do it)? And, why would anyone with $60,000 want to use a coyote and take on that level of risk when they could fly into Canada and enter from the north. That makes absolutely no sense. I have crossed into and out of the U.S. from both Mexico and Canada and it is FAR easier to cross from Canada into the U.S.
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#36 Posted on
I completely agree that buisnesses that hire illegals should be punished. But that cannot be the only answer. Seriously, have you ever even seen a group ofday laborers? Most of them are illegals, and they just stand there day after day waiting for work. How are you going to trace something like that? If the major companies won't hire them- someone will.
We CAN police our borders. Hell, look at those ranchers in Arizona? They are willing to do it for free- all they are asking for is the authority. And the problem is a great deal more serious at the border than simply "immigrants coming over to work." There is a serious traffic in slave trade, drugs, and terrorists that are coming across the border every day because the border patrol is understaffed, and your average American feels totally safe and isolated from the problem so they do not feel it is a big deal.
As far as the extradition problem- yeah, Mexico will not extradite someone who is in danger of recieving the death penalty. But it goes beyond that. They will not extradite ANYONE who is in dager of recieving life in prison! I mean, really, prosecuters have tried that route and the Mexican government feels that that is too harsh of a punishment, even for a cop killer.
I personally do not see what the big deal is about wanting to control illegal immigration. Seriously. You HAVE to control your borders! And if throwing out all of the illegal immigrant labor means that I will have to pay an extra cent a grape because Americans will start working those jobs, and getting decent salaries, I am all for that. I would rather spend that money to make sure someone is here legally is getting a decent job than pay it to a damned overcrowded trauma center, or some other service that we provide that illegals are taking advantage of.
Here is an interesting link. My favorite one of these-
MYTH: Americans won't do the work that illegals do.

TRUTH: Prior to 1965 when the disastrous Immigration Bill was passed, there was very little immigration. In fact, between 1925 and 1965, there was even a period of net emigration out of the United States. During this time, our grass was getting cut, our meat was being packed, our children were being watched and our houses were being cleaned. The idea that somehow we suddenly can't run a country without an unlimited supply of foreigners is absurd.

Those in favor of foreign labor are corporations who are addicted to cheap labor. They are the ones who are benefiting. But their benefit comes at the American tax payer's expense when you consider that the American tax payer is virtually subsidizing the labor costs of the greedy corporations by supplying the illegal foreign workers and their families with welfare, free education, free medical, WICs, housing assistance, etc. -- something the corporations won't do.

Americans won't allow themselves to be exploited like illegals do, but they WILL do the work that illegals do for fair compensation and benefits. If Americans did the work that illegals do at higher pay, would that benefit the consumer? You bet it would in the long run. But many Americans who do not care about America's future are consumers who favor the idea of exploiting illegal workers because it keeps commodity and service prices down in the short term.

---
As far as the percentage of Mexico's GNP that is produced by immigrants (illegal and otherwise) living in the United States- I cannot find a single website that either proves or disproves the statistics I heard. I still stand by that number, but unfortunatly I cannot back it up with a link. I apologize.
I think this is a problem, and I do not think there is any one way to solve it- but one thing that must be done is people really need to stop relaxing about this. It is a problem when you have a border that is as open as ours. It is a problem when you have millions of undocumented immigrants living in our country illegally. It is a problem when the President of a forign country is strongarming our President (who really has to put up with it, or he is labeled as "anti-Mexican" and "Racist"), and will not even do us the common courtesy of turning over criminals who have fled to his country-
And it is a problem when you have a huge influx of people who are NOT American, who have no desire to BE American, and would like nothing better for this land to go back to Mexico, or any other nation. That is no way to have a secure country.
Punish the corperations who are hiring people below minimum wage. Punish them if they hire illegals. Patrol the goddamn border, with the National Guard if you have to, and ship out anyone who does not stand in line and do what is required to come here legally.
And yes, I think upping the number of legal immigrants into this country is another good step to take. Exactly what that number should be, I do not know, but having controls there is essential as weel. I mean, seriously, how many of you have actually driven on a Southern California freeway? We are damned crowded here as it is. Completely opening the border would be disasterous from a logistical standpoint!
But yeah, I am all in favor of allowing people to come here. Just do so legally! I want the people here who want to make this their country, and respect our laws enough to follow them from day one.



My attempt at a webpage


You are DeadPool!


Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 22 days
Last activity: 1 day
#37 Posted on
It seems that one major point of disagreement is on how strongly to patrol the border. I don't think it's a good idea to give a bunch of Mexican-hating ranchers the ability to patrol the border and shoot anyone they think is an illegal alien. There should be some balance between enforcing the border and preserving some semblance of rights. I, for one, do not want a bunch of armed ranchers running around enforcing immigration law. Sounds more like frontier justice to me. I also don't want anyone to think that I am in favor of illegal immigration. Of course I want all immigrants to be documented. Although they may not have to pay federal income tax because of low incomes, I still think they need to be legal residents in order to preserve their rights and dignity and also to ensure they do pay the taxes they should. The problem is that the INS is a horrible agency, possessing the heart of the IRS and the efficiency of the postal service.

One of the points made in the website you linked to (BTW, that was a collection of broad, broad generalizations and unsubstantiated 'evidence'; there were no concrete numbers and no sources for any of the claims made about the costs of illegal immigration) was that trade between California and Mexico was not hurt by Gov. Wilson, as shown by the fact that California was a bigger trade partner of Mexico through 1997, when Wilson was voted out. However, if you look at the longer trend, you can see the benefits of trade between Texas and Mexico (whose governors, both Democrat and Republican, have embraced trade with Mexico and have made strong efforts to further their relationship with Mexico, unlike Wilson). Now, because of the foundation laid in the mid-90s, Mexico DOES have more trade with Texas than California in spite of the fact that California has a higher population and bigger economy than Texas. Also, in addressing your favorite point (from the link provided), this group is completely ignoring all local and state taxes paid. Even if I do not pay one cent of income tax, I am still being taxed. And, as you mentioned, consumers are reaping the benefits of cheaper products and higher profits to the corporation. The economics of illegal immigration are a lot more complex than the analysis they present.

I don't understand the sentiment in wanting people to 'be American'. What does this mean? Anyone who immigrates from their country of birth will always have fond memories of their native country and will always love and respect their native country ('absence makes the heart grow fonder'). They clearly want to be here; otherwise they would not be here (economists call this revealed preference). Personally I wish everyone in the U.S. did speak English, but I want them to do it because it would be best for them. However, they have every right to speak whichever language they choose as there is no legal or constitutional reason for them to learn English.

And, they whole idea of Fox (and MEXICO, of all countries) strong arming the U.S. makes me laugh. Have you no sense of U.S. foreign policy in the Western Hemisphere since Teddy Roosevelt's presidency? What about the economic policy of supporting 'free trade' while increasing steel tariffs and farm price subsidies? BTW, it's not the first amnesty of illegal immigrants, so it's not some recent thing that Fox has bullied Bush into pushing. Was Reagan under the thumb of Miguel de la Madrid in 1986 when he signed a bill granting amnesty to illegal immigrants?

(edited by Corajudo on 26.12.02 1057)
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 10 hours
#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.02
TRUTH: Prior to 1965 when the disastrous Immigration Bill was passed, there was very little immigration. In fact, between 1925 and 1965, there was even a period of net emigration out of the United States.

The disastrous Immigration Bill of 1965? Is the author of this unaware that Western Hemisphere immigration was UNRESTRICTED prior to 1965? Does he want to go back to that? ( I would, but I'm guessing he wouldn't).

All in all, we probably agree on the solutions. More legal immigration, less exploitation of illegals. The difference is you seem to blame the poor schmuk trying to feed his family for whatever negative effects there are on society because of illegal immigration today. I prefer to blame big corporations, the INS, our economic system, and our governments messed-up immigration policies for this.

The problem is that the INS is a horrible agency, possessing the heart of the IRS and the efficiency of the postal service.

I know this was just a joke, but hating on the USPS is one of my big pet peeves. Name me another government organization that works on Saturdays, just for starters. Then name me anyone else that will deliver anything you want under 1 oz anywhere in the country in less than a week for the price of a - you know, I can't even think of anything that costs less than 37 cents. And really, when was the last time the Post Office lost something of yours? I was served by the Brentwood station (AKA Anthrax Central) in the fall of 2001, and the USPS still managed not to lose a single thing I sent.






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Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

Since last post: 1231 days
Last activity: 30 days
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#39 Posted on
I think that we can all agree that there has been a vast improvement in the productivity and quality of product that the USPS has put out there in the last few years :). Hell, I do not even GO to UPS anymore!
I think we should avoid placing "blame," and focus on fixing the problem. Your "typical" liberal response is to blame the big corperations. They do share some fault in this, but focusing on them for a solution is not going to fix squat. Just as I, as a conservative, will blame the immigrant, who did break the law in coming here and likely does not have the pure intentions that many think. But focusing on that is not going to solve the problem either.
No one is suggesting that we give a bunch of "angry ranchers the right to kill on site." That is just plain ridiculous, and comments like that are not condusive to solving the problem. What that group in Arizona is proposing is this- They have already formed a Militia, allowed under the Constitution. They ALREADY patrol the border. However, they have some problems. One, they often run into coyotes who are much more heavily armed than they are, and they are not going to attempt to break them up- and the border patrol does not help. Second- if they do catch a person crossing the border illegally, and they catch them, they hold them and call the border patrol. But, if the Border Patrol does not show up within 15 minutes, they have to let the person go, or else they will be charged with kidnapping! The Militia there is simply asking to be deputized, in other words, to be granted police power by the US Marshall's office.
This IS frontier justice to be sure, but seriously, have you ever been to the south of Arizona? That is exactly what it is. I have been out hiking there and seen planes drop mysterious crates and take off again. Everyone knows when you see something like that in the desert, you turn and get the hell away because you do not want to be around when whoever is picking up that crate shows up. It IS a frontier down there, and our current efforts at "securing the border" are a complete and total joke.
Of course that is only one part of the answer. Yes, you need to reform the INS, and make it a much more efficient organization. YES, you need to target illegals already in the country, and actually begin the process of deporting them. Yes, you need to expand the numbers of people we allow into this country legally, and we need to keep better track of them until they become citizens. And YES, you need to target those who hire illegals (or anyone without proper documentation, for that matter), whether they be a big corperation or a household hiring a nanny, and punish them.
But no matter what you do, amnesty solves NOTHING. Regan was wrong to do it, and Bush will be wrong to, if he actually goes through with it.
I am not even going to respond to the crack about "whatever that means..." (to be an American). There is a difference between having fond memories of your native land, while still embracing your new one, and counting the days until your new land is "repatriated" to your old one...



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Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 22 days
Last activity: 1 day
#40 Posted on
As far as the Post Office goes, you are correct in that I took a cheap shot in the interest of writing something a little more pithy. I think they do a good job at a difficult, thankless task, especially considering their mandate. Their problem is that they charge the same amount to send a letter across town as they do to send it across the country. That makes absolutely no sense (however the alternative would be me having to go to the office to and wait in line to mail anything, which would I would hate even more). I think George Will put it best when he described the USPS as the only company that responds to falling profits and a declining market share by proposing increased prices and decreased service (at that time, the USPS had proposed eliminating Saturday service and increasing stamp prices and used their poor performance as evidence for these changes).

As far as amnesty not solving anything, this is not true. Amnesty DOES solve some things--illegal immigrants become the legal immigrants everyone professes to love. Plus, they can pay their federal (and state, where applicable) income taxes, social security and medicare taxes so it cuts the societal costs cited. And they are more easily tracked. They can open bank accounts, buy houses, use credit, get an education, receive funding for college and ultimately become citizens where they can serve on juries (oh joyous day!) and vote. All of these positive contributions which can be realized by a vote of Congress and the stroke of a pen.

Also, the 'whatever that means' was not intended to be a crack. It is difficult for me to use a broad brush and define what it means to act or be American; I think it cheapens the idea of America by attempting to put it in a box with a pat description. And, this whole idea of immigrants wanting to cede U.S. territory is ludicrous. If they are actively working against the U.S. and plotting to overthrow the government and/or cede large parts of the southwestern U.S., then that's sedition or treason and is punishable under the penal code. At that point, don't screw with the Border Patrol; send the FBI or the U.S. Marshals after them.

(edited by Corajudo on 26.12.02 1545)
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I would think that orchestrating a DoS attack would be illegal, but depending on how they go about, if enough protesters access the servers simulatanously, I don't think that's illegal. Its one thing to write malware; its another to use people.
- EddieBurkett, New GOP Hating Activists: Hackers (2004)
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