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The W - Current Events & Politics - Free Health care BS
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Bizzle Izzle
Bockwurst








Since: 26.6.02
From: New Jersey, USA

Since last post: 49 days
Last activity: 49 days
#1 Posted on
U.S. hospitals say illegals cost too much

Beautiful. So not only do the Democrats steal our money to pay for health care of illegal immigrants in the USA, but now we have to pay for mexicans hurt in mexico that come over here for free health care. Boy, that's just great. And now with Bush trying to court the hispanic vote, nothing will be done about this.




Maiden RULES!!!
Promote this thread!
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1236 days
Last activity: 1033 days
#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Don't even get me started about this nonsense. This is just another eason that we need to secure our borders. The fact of hte matter remains that these ambulances sneak across the unguarded sections of the border illegally. The illegals get free healthcare. And for those of Americans who aer serviced by those hospitals getting ready to go under? I guess nobody cares because like you say, nobody seems to want to do a damn thing about it.



What kind of disjointed society do we live in if Merry Christmas is Politically Incorrect?
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
Moderator








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 2 hours
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05

    Originally posted by Bizzle Izzle
    U.S. hospitals say illegals cost too much

    Beautiful. So not only do the Democrats steal our money to pay for health care of illegal immigrants in the USA, but now we have to pay for mexicans hurt in mexico that come over here for free health care. Boy, that's just great. And now with Bush trying to court the hispanic vote, nothing will be done about this.



democrats? didn't it mention a 1986 law about treating ANYONE...who was the prez in 86? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?



DDP: Well, there's this little passage I got memorized, Diamond Dallas 25:17. Sort of fits this occasion:

"The path of the bookerman is beset on all sides by the inequities of the talented, and the tyranny of workrate freaks. Blessed is he, who in the name of tradition and sports entertainment carries the stiffs through the matches of Nitro, for he is truly the workrate's keeper, and the finder of lost quality. And I will lay the smack down upon thee with great vengeance and furious roid rage those who attempt to outwrestle and expose my brothers. And you will know my name as the Bookerman, when I lay my catchphrase upon thee!"

DDP & Kevin: *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!*

-From MrJF's Pulp Bookerman

www.mozilla.org go here and make the switch, you won't regret it!

R-D-Z
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

Since last post: 1282 days
Last activity: 48 days
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#4 Posted on
I say Get these guys some federal funding, deputize them, and let them go to work.
Very few actual illegal immigrants are here because they are "fleeing oppression" or because they WANT to be Americans. US dollars from Mexicans working illegally in the United States accounts for like 1/3 of Mexico's GDP.
When it comes to the border, to quote President Fox - "It is not so much two nations as it is a "region." Mexico is activly, as a matter of policy, encouraging immigration into the Untied States (legally and otherwise) so that a larg epopulation of Americans and illegals will be in our country, in force, so that Mexico in turn can use them to influence public policy. You think his pressure on Bush (That is one think that pisses me off about Bush- the way he just caves on this) for amnesty is a coincidence?
Before anyone jumps down my throat, I suggest you look into a concept known as "Reconquista." Here is a good place to start. This ideal is very much alive in Mexico, and it is VERY dangerous.
I am all for people who immigrate into this country to BECOME AMERICANS. The whole "Nation of Immigrants" idea came from a time of high immigration where people came to this country to start a new life, in a new country that they would make their own.
How many of these illegals who come here actually care about America for reasons other than Health care and jobs? Take a look at all of the "Aztalan" window stickers and Mexican flags and see how many people go to VOTE in Mexico (now that they are allowed to) when Mexican election time comes... These people do not seem to be embracing the United States- rather, biding their time until it is all just Mexico again.
I am done :).




3 out of 5 Statisticians agree- Statistics are all bull$hit!
"Pool-Boy"
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 73 days
Last activity: 3 days
#5 Posted on
Pool-Boy,

Historically, the vast majority of the immigrants have come to the U.S. for jobs, even the members of that 'Tombstone Tumbleweed' group. Why is it wrong for Latin Americans to do the same? I don't understand the difference between coming to the U.S. for 'a new life' or ‘opportunity’ and coming to the U.S. for a job. Here is a link to a story about a recent survey of Hispanics in the U.S.: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dallas/business/stories/121802dnbuslatinos.5cc9d.html and here is a direct link to the survey itself: http://www.pewhispanic.org/site/docs/pdf/LatinoSurveyReportFinal.pdf in case you don’t want to register at the Dallas Morning News. This looks at reasons for immigration, language, future opportunity and even has a section about health care (which almost makes my post relevant for this thread).

President Fox often talks about 'a region' but it is about the North American region, which includes Canada. Like it or not, the economic fortunes of these countries are tied together and the governments should work together because there are many issues that need to be resolved among these countries.

I also don't understand how a large illegal population can influence public policy when they cannot vote or run for office. Furthermore, a Mexican national SHOULD vote in Mexican elections (especially a Mexican national in the U.S.), the same way that an American citizen in Mexico or Canada should be able to vote in U.S. elections. Again, I don't see how this directly impacts U.S. public policy.

I would also like to see a source for your assertion that 'like 1/3' of Mexican GDP is composed of transfers from illegals in the U.S. back into Mexico. The Mexican central bank (Banco de México) tracks transfers into Mexico from other countries. It currently totals less than one percent of Mexican GDP (their website is located at www.banxico.org.mx/ and has a wealth of information in English as well as Spanish). The shortcoming is that their income transfer data do not include cash transfers (i.e. sent through the mail or when the families get together), but I would love to see a credible source for those data.

On issues of having a national identity, do you also have a problem with immigrants from Asia who continue to refer to themselves as Chinese or Japanese or Korean even after they are U.S. citizens? Why is it wrong for a Mexican immigrant to refer to themselves as Mexican and fly a Mexican flag while it is ok for a Korean-American to call themselves Korean and have a Korean flag?

Lastly, I don’t even know how to respond to the ‘Reconquista’ idea. If this idea is ‘very much alive’ in Mexico, then it would probably be best to support your claim with Mexican source or at least something written by a Mexican. I think the most charitable word to describe your source for this would be flawed. And, the most charitable word to describe the article would be unconvincing.

I apologize for the lengthy post and the delayed response.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1236 days
Last activity: 1033 days
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
There is a slight problem with illegal immigrants you failed to recognize. They are here ILLEGALLY. If we can't expect people to follow the law when entering the country they really have no business being here.


    Originally posted by Corajudo
    On issues of having a national identity, do you also have a problem with immigrants from Asia who continue to refer to themselves as Chinese or Japanese or Korean even after they are U.S. citizens? Why is it wrong for a Mexican immigrant to refer to themselves as Mexican and fly a Mexican flag while it is ok for a Korean-American to call themselves Korean and have a Korean flag?


Nobody said it's wrong to do that. Culutural heritage is swell. What is wrong is for them to come here illegally, refuse to speak English and demand that American culture adapt to suit them instead of adapting themselves to assimilate into American culture.



What kind of disjointed society do we live in if Merry Christmas is Politically Incorrect?
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 73 days
Last activity: 3 days
#7 Posted on
There is another side to the illegal alien problem in that Americans and American companies are giving them work. So, these companies are just as guilty (I would argue more so) and unless someone does something to stop this, illegal immigration will continue. Many of businesses hire illegal immigrants knowing full well their illegal status and yet nothing is done to stop that. In this sense, we are seeing our government make the same flawed approach to confronting illegal immigration as they use against illegal drugs--focusing on supply while virtually ignoring demand.

Also, I don't think illegal (or legal, for that matter) immigrants 'refuse' to speak English. Can't and refuse are completely different concepts. Why would anyone refuse to speak English in the U.S.? That makes absolutely no sense. Also, I don't think they 'demand that American culture adapt to them'. They are looking to provide for themselves and their families. You may want to stop illegal immigration, but it is hard to criticize illegal immigrants for wanting to pursue a better opportunity and a better economic life for themselves and their children. No one HAS to speak English or adapt to American culture; that's one of our basic rights. From my perspective, that is one of the most beautiful things about the U.S. and about American culture; it endures without forcing people to adapt. And, as people do adapt in one direction by becoming 'more' American, the U.S. adapts at the same time by becoming 'more' heterogenous. I think this constant cultural evolution is a wonderful thing and is a main factor in the country's continued strength and prosperity.

Lastly, I am not trying to defend illegal aliens or immigration per se; I am mostly responding to the generalizations and questionable statements written and cited.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1236 days
Last activity: 1033 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by Corajudo
    There is another side to the illegal alien problem in that Americans and American companies are giving them work. So, these companies are just as guilty (I would argue more so) and unless someone does something to stop this, illegal immigration will continue.

I agree.


    Originally posted by Corajudo
    Why would anyone refuse to speak English in the U.S.? That makes absolutely no sense.

Because the government allows them to get away with it. Ever notice that ballots are available in eight different languages in Los Angeles County alone?

    Originally posted by Corajudo
    You may want to stop illegal immigration, but it is hard to criticize illegal immigrants for wanting to pursue a better opportunity and a better economic life for themselves and their children.

It's easy to criticize illegal immigrants for breaking the law. If they were so concerned about pursuing opportunity and a better life, why not cross at the border crossings like millions do every day instead of sneaking through the desert in the middle of the night, crossing the border illegally and then expecting the US government to pick up the slack if you get hurt/dehydrated etc.


    Originally posted by Corajudo
    No one HAS to speak English or adapt to American culture

Please contact your local congressman and ask him or her to support a Constitutional amendment making English our national language.




What kind of disjointed society do we live in if Merry Christmas is Politically Incorrect?
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 73 days
Last activity: 3 days
#9 Posted on
Illegal immigrants would still be illegal if they crossed at the border and then stayed in the U.S. and worked. This whole idea of policing the border to prevent illegal immigration is fundamentally flawed. As long as the incentive to cross exists, and our border is as vast as it is, the crossings will continue. It would be more productive to tackle what we CAN control more efficiently, which is the businesses who provide the work.

As far as the inhumane practice of treating illegal aliens, blame the doctors who make a vow to treat all sick or injured people. And, blame the hospitals whose charters require them to treat sick or injured people. You could try to pass a law requiring people to show proof of insurance, proof of ability to pay or proof of citizenship before medical care is given (at least at public hospitals). I'd love to see a politician tackle that hot potato.

On the language issue, Latin American immigration is the most recent wave of immigration. Therefore, the first generation will struggle with the language and will not speak English perfectly, if at all. The second generation will have no problems with language, and this will be a moot point. Then, there will be another wave of immigration from some other area and people will complain about and make generalizations about immigrants from that region. In this regard, history will continue to repeat itself, just as it did over the past 125 (or so) years.
GodEatGod
Boudin rouge








Since: 28.2.02

Since last post: 32 days
Last activity: 9 days
#10 Posted on
I'm so not understanding why giving health care to illegal immigrants is a hot button. Just what kind of hospital has a sick patient come in and says, "Well, he's an illegal immigrant. He's just going to have to get back to Mexico or die here". It's called humanity, caring for your fellow man, stuff like that. Just because someone wasn't born in our country doesn't make them not a person.

We don't need any more immigration laws. Why? Because illegal immigrants are -illegal-. That's the phrase. If the law's not enforced, well, maybe someone ought to look into that. I'm more concerned about terrorists slipping through our borders than a Mexican family looking for a good job and a safe place to raise their kids. Call me crazy. Security is and will continue to be the primary purpose of border control, not keeping illegals from taking a bit of the money they make back to Mexico. Mexico's poor as dirt. I don't begrudge them a little scratch.

On the language issue, there's nothing wrong with making ballots and other things accessible in other languages. Even if they know English, many people from other nations are still more comfortable with their birth dialect, and isn't the need for clarity in balloting something Florida taught us all too well a couple of years ago?



"All I ever asked for in life is an unfair advantage." Microchip, Punisher Annual #2
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2797 days
Last activity: 2639 days
AIM:  
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
Being humane is nice, but this is more like theft. Sick, poor illegals are not relying on charity - they are taking advantage of us. I am also not without sympathy, but our tax dollars should not be paying for people who come here to break our laws (by definition) and leech off our systems.

I have a terrific idea for Vicente Fox. Instead of trying to funnel millions of your citizens into our country, why not work on making Mexico not a shithole?



Damn your eyes!
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1236 days
Last activity: 1033 days
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by Corajudo
    Illegal immigrants would still be illegal if they crossed at the border and then stayed in the U.S. and worked. This whole idea of policing the border to prevent illegal immigration is fundamentally flawed.

Aw, then the hell with it and let's just have a nation without borders and open them up for everybody, legal and illegal and of course, I don't know the terrorists and criminals who can also be crossing illegally. We don't know who these people are. That's why we have border crossings.


    Originally posted by Corajudo
    As long as the incentive to cross exists, and our border is as vast as it is, the crossings will continue.

OK then, since they are traveling across the border illegally, in groups, that makes them a posse and thus invading our country; so let's shoot them. Can't make a living if your dead.

Tongue sort of in cheek.



What kind of disjointed society do we live in if Merry Christmas is Politically Incorrect?
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 73 days
Last activity: 3 days
#13 Posted on
Palpatine: My question remains: How do propose that sick or injured patients prove their citizenship or legal alien status before you treat them? I agree completely with what GodEatGod says (but that's not so hard because he furthered my point!). Additionally, can you imagine the backlash at any politician who proposes that a sick/injured person has to prove immigration status and/or ability to pay before given treatment? Personally, I couldn't prove resident status at a moment's notice (unless I was at home). I could show a driver's license and maybe a social security card, but that is not proof of citizenship or resident alien status. Again, it violates both the oath taken by doctors and the hospital charter (plus basic human decency) to withhold medical care, even in the absence of these.

And, Grimis, my point is that the U.S.-Mexico border is impossibly long and varied (in terrain) to completely shut down. If the government is truly serious about ending illegal immigration, they need to tackle the demand side as well as the supply side. Also, many terrorists and criminals come into the country LEGALLY (mainly on student or tourist visas--they of course oftentimes outstay the visa, at which time they become illegal). In fact, NONE of the 9/11 terrorists entered through the U.S.-Mexico border. Why should they when it is far easier to enter the U.S. through Canada, if you have the means to get to Canada. If they are engaging in terrorist or criminal activities, then no one has a problem with prosecuting them and/or sending them back to their country.

Lastly, to further your (sort of!) tongue in cheek point, one of the main goals of laws aimed at illegal immigration is to slow the flow of illegal immigrants by making it more difficult and expensive (both economically and from the risk of physical harm) so that the benefits of attempting to cross illegal are outweighed by the costs. In theory, I don't have a problem with this, but the unintended consequences of this policy are pretty severe and I don't think anyone is happy with the current situation. As I've stated before, let's try and raise the costs to the businesses who continue to reward illegal immigration. And, probably the worst solution to the illegal immigration problem is to give the wasteful, incompetent and generally useless INS more power or responsibility.
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1396 days
Last activity: 304 days
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95
    Originally posted by Grimis
    There is a slight problem with illegal immigrants you failed to recognize. They are here ILLEGALLY. If we can't expect people to follow the law when entering the country they really have no business being here.


      Originally posted by Corajudo
      On issues of having a national identity, do you also have a problem with immigrants from Asia who continue to refer to themselves as Chinese or Japanese or Korean even after they are U.S. citizens? Why is it wrong for a Mexican immigrant to refer to themselves as Mexican and fly a Mexican flag while it is ok for a Korean-American to call themselves Korean and have a Korean flag?


    Nobody said it's wrong to do that. Culutural heritage is swell. What is wrong is for them to come here illegally, refuse to speak English and demand that American culture adapt to suit them instead of adapting themselves to assimilate into American culture.



You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Go visit a billingual education kindegarten class and see if those kids aren't trying to learn English. It's easy to demonize a whole group of people as unwilling to assimilate, but you are painting with a pretty broad brush.

See, Mexicans are the one of the last groups that it's okay to be predjudiced against. You just have to call them "illegals." People come here illegally for all kinds of reasons - not just to rob and pillage and leech off our FABULOUS healthcare system that is so geared towards pampering poor, Spanish speaking Mexicans, who, I assure you, are not living in the lap of fucking luxury. Who the hell are you to say they really have no business being here? And if you're a good Republican, worried about dollars and cents, think of this: I'll bet that if you add up all the work hours that those people are putting into our country's enconomy, their output FAR exceeds any pittance they're getting in minimal healthcare or public schooling.

Grimmis, go retreat to the suburbs with the rest of your Republican bretheren and urge your local school board to keep all the "illegals" away from your pristine offspring if you have a problem with it. Tack up a copy of the ten commandments, too, if it makes you feel better.


edit - spelling

(edited by asteroidboy on 23.12.02 1300)


"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex
"Was he no-selling?" - Me

Never been a Wiener of the Day

RFMC Vice President (I think)

Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1236 days
Last activity: 1033 days
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Thank you for proving all of my points for me. It doesn't matter what people do, as long as they aren't white they can do no wrong. Let's disregard the fact that they are BREAKING THE FUCKING LAW and just demonize Republcians as white suburbanite racists.

I don't have problems with people of any particular race. I just have problems with lawbreakers.



What kind of disjointed society do we live in if Merry Christmas is Politically Incorrect?
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2797 days
Last activity: 2639 days
AIM:  
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
Corajudo - I don't propose that hospitals deny treatment to non-citizens. I would propose that we make it more difficult for people to enter our country, and by extension our hospitals, illegally.

Asteroidboy - I think you had a point buried in all that mindless, racist invective, and I think you're wrong about it. I will admit, if these people are paying into the system, they should have some rights. But not if they refuse to obey our laws, and work and pay into it legally. I'm not against giving certain illegals work visas, if that turns out to be a viable option, but until they fill out the requisite paperwork, they are here illegally and are by definition criminals. Are they bad people? I'm willing to bet most of them are good people trying to earn a living for their families. But this doesn't change the facts - they are breaking the law.

And, to take a different tack - are you sure that illegals will be paying taxes at all? Some might work under the table, and I would suspect the vast majority of them make so little money that they don't have to pay federal taxes at all.



Damn your eyes!
Bizzle Izzle
Bockwurst








Since: 26.6.02
From: New Jersey, USA

Since last post: 49 days
Last activity: 49 days
#17 Posted on

    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    And, to take a different tack - are you sure that illegals will be paying taxes at all? Some might work under the table, and I would suspect the vast majority of them make so little money that they don't have to pay federal taxes at all.



Don't worry. The rest of us hardworking folk can just work double and pay more taxes to cover the slack. I mean, they have a great racket going: take and take and take from the government, and pay nothing in return. Sounds pretty sweet, too bad I can't sign up.

All I can hope for is that I'll have enough left over to retreat with my brethren and buy a big 10 commandments plaque.




Maiden RULES!!!
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 8 days
Last activity: 9 hours
AIM:  
#18 Posted on
Not all Republicans are white suburban-dwelling racists.

Of course, all white suburban-dwelling racists are Republicans...

And again I say, Merry Christmas!



"Every Who down in Who-Ville liked Christmas a lot, but the Grinch who lived in a cave just north of Who-Ville did not. So, the US sent B-2s to take him out - but, to our suprise, the Whos, who we thought we our allies, snuck the Grinch out inside a hollow Roast Beast. So, all we nabbed were low-level operatives, like the Zizzer Zazzer-Zuzz, who we shipped to Guantanamo Bay (and we have solid leads on the whereabouts of David Donald Doo and his Duck Dog too).

Then we accidenly killed the Cat In The Hat when an unmanned drone mistook him for the Grinch. Frustrated in our hunt, we then threatened to invade the Jungle of Newell unless Horton the Elephant agreed to an UN Arms Inspection.

Then we figured out that Sam I Am was funneling profits from his Green Eggs and Ham business into secret Grinch accounts - and we arrested One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish and Blue Fish who were running a sleeper cell in Buffalo! And still no clue about the Grinch, even though the CIA suspects that he masterminded the recent bombings on the street where the grickle grass grows that killed The Lorax and a group of Fiffer-Feffer-Feffs! And then...

...Aw, to hell with it, kid. Go read "Frosty The Snowman" instead"
-----DERF www.derfcity.com
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 165 days
Last activity: 165 days
#19 Posted on
So all this says to me is that we need to take a harder line against businesses who allow illegal immigrants to work for them. These people are breaking the law too, and I'm willing to bet that it will have a greater effect on illegal immigration instead of paying millions of dollars trying to close our borders.

-Jag

I'd rather see those millions spent on fixing our education system, thank you.



War is when you kill people with no names.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2797 days
Last activity: 2639 days
AIM:  
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44

    Originally posted by Jaguar
    So all this says to me is that we need to take a harder line against businesses who allow illegal immigrants to work for them. These people are breaking the law too, and I'm willing to bet that it will have a greater effect on illegal immigration instead of paying millions of dollars trying to close our borders.

    -Jag

    I'd rather see those millions spent on fixing our education system, thank you.



Yeah, man. It'll be a great day when our schools have all the money they need and the Air Force has to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber. Right on. Then when Osama tries to attack us we can fend him off with diversity education and sensitivity training.



Damn your eyes!
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Maybe it's all a load of crap? As of 1620 Pacific not even the one media outlet you'd expect to be all over that kind of thing has a single line about it.
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