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26.7.14 0010
The W - Current Events & Politics - For those who oppose politicization of the war against Iraq
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Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 17 days
Last activity: 1 day
#1 Posted on
I hope that everyone who has ripped any group for politicizing the Iraq debate takes the opportunity to rip yet another person who puts politicizing the war above national interest. Follow the link here (washingtonpost.com) to see I am referring to our President himself. Or, if you choose not to rip Bush, then could you please explain to me why any Central American country (most notably Guatemala) deserves a free trade agreement above Chile, especially given Bush’s stated support of open markets. However, the Chilean government found that final approval of their free trade agreement with the U.S. had been delayed ‘indefinitely’ after they voted not to support the U.S. in the war vs. Iraq while a free trade agreement with Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Nicaragua is being pursued and emphasized by the administration.

This, in spite of the fact that, earlier in 2003, …Washington determined that Guatemala was a poor ally in the war on drugs, that human rights were deteriorating in the country and that there is increased activity by clandestine groups with connections to the government who obstruct justice with threats and intimidation.

Also, this is in spite of the fact that: The elimination of corruption and the enhancing of economic freedom, keys to any trade agreement, continue to elude several of the Central American countries. Levels of corruption in Guatemala and Nicaragua are among the highest in the world, with Honduras and El Salvador not far behind, according to watchdog group Transparency International.

Lastly, In the days immediately following the events of Sept. 11, (U.S. Trade Representative Robert B.) Zoellick himself made a powerful case for trade as a potent weapon against terrorism. He would do well now to remember his own words.

"America's trade leadership can build a coalition of countries that cherish liberty in all its aspects,'' he wrote on the opinion page of The Washington Post. "Other nations are more likely to work with us to improve local standards if our approach is positive, not intimidating.''


True words, indeed. So, all you who continuously rip ‘liberals’ or ‘the left’ or France or Russia or whomever for their failure to see beyond politics, I hope you rip Bush over this with equal fervor.
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Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#2 Posted on
I have never been a real supporter of Bush when it comes to some of his policies regarding other Western Hemisphere Nations- Mexico in particular.

I think we should be much harder on their neighbors for their "shady" activites, instead of trying to be one big happy half of the world. Be it on this subject, or illegal immigration...

That being said, I agree that I would love to see certain people on the left aknowledge when a member of their party does something completely out of line, instead of simply pointing back at the right and turning it into a pissing contest.

(edited by Pool-Boy on 22.4.03 1559)




Still on the Shelf #5
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1180 days
Last activity: 977 days
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Nobody except our closest allies deserve free trade agreements. I don't call Mexico, Chile, or Guatemala close allies. Especially when you consider the Mexico problems.

Bush's immigration policies have sucked, mainly because he is rewarding bad behavior(ie illegal immigration) and refuses to turn off the spigot. Then again, it would've been a hell of a lot worse under Gore.




Hairy Caray
Bauerwurst








Since: 28.10.02
From: Wrigley Field hot dog stand

Since last post: 3604 days
Last activity: 3601 days
#4 Posted on
I agree with the aforementioned criticisms, but to play Devil's Advocate, and stimulate one of the always-civil, generous, and strictly non-partisan debates that are the norm in the Politics folder:

To all the people who were begging for the US to form a coalition of some kind in the UN, how do you think one goes about that in world politics? Isn't it a "you scractch my back; I'll scratch yours" scenario? I'm pretty idealistic, but even I recognize that it's nearly impossible to gain foreign political support any other way.




Cubs win! Cubs win! Cubs win!
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 5 hours
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
I would certainly say that Mexico is one of our closest allies. Guatemala and Chile, no.

This country has always had the worst, most fucked-up policies in Latin America. And despite all of this, they managed to

a) democratize themselves (mostly), despite our Soviet-like policy of only supporting democratically elected leaders that did what we wanted, and installing military rulers in the others, and

b) not be THAT bitter about the whole thing. I mean, if I had to take a guess of who's got the most reason to hate us, it'd be Latin America hands down. Maybe Southeast Asia. And yet, they manage to actually move forward and try to improve their countries, rather than (like some countries in a certain part of the world I could mention) do nothing but complain about being dissed, and encourage people to avenge said dissing by blowing themselves up.

And the worst you can say about folks from these countries is that a lot of them want to be Americans?

Mad props to Latin America.



It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Michael Novotny, A smart guy, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, not racist, a Chihuahua, Data, an Asian Gangster, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, White Chocolate, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Mr. Peabody, Bjork, Spider-Man, Tom Daschle, Boston, a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage, not a Hipster, and a Gringo.
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 17 days
Last activity: 1 day
#6 Posted on
Nobody except our closest allies deserve free trade agreements. I don't call Mexico, Chile, or Guatemala close allies.

How do you define allies? Does being an ally mean that Chile (or Mexico or any other ally) has to support the U.S. in everything they pursue? If so, shouldn't the U.S. reciprocate this? Otherwise, anytime the U.S. doesn't support the Chilean (or British or whichever) government, this would indicate that the U.S. is not being a good ally. I always thought the U.S. supported countries with freely elected democracies, low levels of corruption, whose citizens generally enjoy freedom. I'm not sure how Chile fails to meet this definition.

... I agree that I would love to see certain people on the left aknowledge when a member of their party does something completely out of line, instead of simply pointing back at the right and turning it into a pissing contest.

When did free trade become a left wing issue? It IS a foundation of liberal thought, but classic liberalism, which is far different than the definition of liberal used on this board.

If you want to rehash amnesty for illegal aliens or if you want to pick on Mexico or the rest of the Western Hemisphere, I'm up for that debate. However, it's an issue for a separate thread.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1180 days
Last activity: 977 days
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by MoeGates
    I would certainly say that Mexico is one of our closest allies.

I disagree for a few reasons. Not the least of which involves drugs, but also money. Do you know how much money flows from the US Government to Mexico? I'm talking about social security payments, etc? People cross the border illegally(very bad), get jobs(worse) and send the money home(strike three). What's worst of all is that Vincente Fox's guys ENCOURAGE this sort of behavior.


    Originally posted by MoeGates
    And the worst you can say about folks from these countries is that a lot of them want to be Americans?

I don't hate them. I hate the fact that this country isn't serious about border control and enforcing laws surrounding illegal immigration.

EDIT: Spelling

(edited by Grimis on 23.4.03 1128)



Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 17 days
Last activity: 1 day
#8 Posted on

    Originally posted by Grimis
    I disagree for a few reasons. Not the least of which involves drugs, but also money. Do you know how much money flows from the US Government to Mexico? I'm talking about social security payments, etc? People cross the border illegally(very bad), get jobs(worse) and send the money home(strike three). What's worst of all is that Vincente Fox's guys ENCOURAGE this sort of behavior.


The only social security payments that currently flow out of U.S. borders are to legal, documented immigrants who lived in the U.S., paid social security taxes and are therefore entitled to receive social security payments. Bush has proposed allowing illegal immigrants who paid social security taxes to receive social security benefits, but this has not been passed yet.

I think that Fox 'encourages' illegal immigration in the same way that the U.S. drug laws and demand for illegal drugs 'encourage' farmers to grow and dealers to transport these illegal drugs.
messenoir
Summer sausage








Since: 20.2.02
From: Columbia, MO

Since last post: 456 days
Last activity: 323 days
AIM:  
#9 Posted on
Here's the issue where I'm torn on. I believe illegal immigration is okay if the illegal immigrant is from a country which has cruel and unusual punishment practices, violent suppression of civil liberties, etc. I don't accept illegal immigration if done because of economic reasons.

Most Mexican immigrants arive because of economic reasons, hence I don't support illegal immigration from this country. However, because of close ties with Mexico, America does accept these immigrants more readily, and Bush even talked about helping these people.

However, many South American illegal immigrants do come because of oppression, and I support them. However, you don't hear about these people, and very few are allowed into the country legally.
dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 17 days
Last activity: 7 hours
#10 Posted on

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    That being said, I agree that I would love to see certain people ....aknowledge when a member of their party does something completely out of line, instead of simply pointing back at the right and turning it into a pissing contest.


I dunno what domestic politics is like over in the US but that right there is pretty much the basis for a heck of a lot of the debate in the Houses of Parliament.

Generally the Tories say how fucked up the country is, Labour then says thats cos the right spent 17 years fucking it up, the Tories mumble something about the winter of discontent, Labour says the Conservatives smell funny and so on.

What it is to live in a modern democracy eh?



"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard
godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3816 days
Last activity: 3761 days
#11 Posted on
get jobs(worse)

Dude, do you have the slightest idea of the kind of jobs illegal immigrants work? The people who hire illegal immigrants do so because the jobs in question are shitwork of the worst possible kind, and the immigrants' right as workers are often completely ignored.

It's the illegal immigrants who have cause to complain, not you.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1180 days
Last activity: 977 days
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by godking
    It's the illegal immigrants who have cause to complain, not you.

Let me get this straight. Illegal immigrants break the law, enter this country illegally, and they are the victims here?

Moral relativism strikes again...




MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 5 hours
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
You know, we had this whole discussion before, and I think the concensus was essentially:

1 - increased legal immigration
2 - better enforcement of immigration laws



It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Michael Novotny, A smart guy, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, not racist, a Chihuahua, Data, an Asian Gangster, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, White Chocolate, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Mr. Peabody, Bjork, Spider-Man, Tom Daschle, Boston, a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage, not a Hipster, and a Gringo.
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It's a bit scary how this has brought out the Anti-Semites again. Now people are calling into radio shows and actually agreeing. Although you don't hear about much Anti-Semitism these days, it's definitely still out there.
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