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The W - Random - Follow up to my first question (Page 2)
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Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

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#21 Posted on
There's one thing I don't quite follow, though.

I'd always thought it was implied that Obi-Wan was never actually a Jedi Master, just a Knight, which was part of the reason Anakin/Vader turned out so bad. I'd assumed that meant that there were three basic levels: Apprentice, Knight, and Master. Luke, for example, is only a Knight (and is referred to as one) in Return o' the Jedi, and (according to the books) didn't become an actual Master until several years later.

Plus... have they covered the whole concept that Anakin, as Vader, DID (sorta) fulfill his prophecy of bringing balance to the Force? I mean... there were all kinds of "good" Jedi hanging around, and... what, two or three Sith lords? When Vader wiped out the Jedi, he certainly made things a lot more "balanced". Then Luke had to come along and screw it all up. (:



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka: HE raised the briefcase!
Fuzzy Logic
Summer sausage








Since: 31.3.02
From: Happy Valley - Goose Bay, Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada

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#22 Posted on
Vader did sort of fulfill his prophecy by axin' all but 2 of the jedi's. When Obi-Wan died, Lukey was far from being a Jedi (newb apprentice of doom), so then there was one Jedi, and Two sith (massively out of balance this is). Then when lukey was actually a real apprentice, there were 2 Jedi again, but he was still a wimpy li'l sucka, so the force was still pretty much out of balance. Then Yoda dies, when Luke could actually be figured as a Knight, which throws the force really out of balance, since all that's left on the light side is basically a punk ass li'l kid who ain't got much skills compared to the two sith.

So, Luke didn't screw up the balance, death did :)

(edited by Fuzzy Logic on 5.6.02 0357)
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

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#23 Posted on

    Originally posted by Fuzzy Logic
    So, Luke didn't screw up the balance, death did :)

    (edited by Fuzzy Logic on 5.6.02 0357)



Well, then I'm going to blame it all on Yoda and Ben. Ben LETS Vader kill him, thus... repaying... er... well, maybe he was drunk or something. And Yoda? Stupid creepy little troll! Going off and living in a HOLLOW TREE in a SWAMP at his age? He was BEGGING to get sick and die. (:



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka: HE raised the briefcase!
Papercuts!
Potato korv








Since: 3.1.02
From: Springfield, Mo.

Since last post: 4432 days
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
You guys don't quit, do you? I told myself yesterday that I was done for good with Star Wars threads on this board, but when blatant falsehoods are being posted, I have to interject.
    Originally posted by Freeway420
    Amidala is pregnant, and gives birth to twins Luke & Leia before she's killed by Count Dooku. Anakin is told this by Chancellor Palpatine, who encourages Anakin to take his vengeance.
This is all speculation and NOT FACT as Freeway is presenting it. No one but Lucas knows what happens to Dooku, Padme or Anakin. It's not been established yet. This is exactly what I was talking about yesterday when I said people take speculation they see on this board and run with it as immutable fact. We don't know if Dooku kills Padme or how Palpatine convinces Anakin to join him or what. We'll have to wait and see. If you insist on telling me that IS what happens, provide me with a link to Starwars.com where it says this happens on the official timeline.
    Originally posted by Nate The Snake
    Plus... have they covered the whole concept that Anakin, as Vader, DID (sorta) fulfill his prophecy of bringing balance to the Force? I mean... there were all kinds of "good" Jedi hanging around, and... what, two or three Sith lords? When Vader wiped out the Jedi, he certainly made things a lot more "balanced". Then Luke had to come along and screw it all up. (:
Anakin brings balance to the force by killing the Emperor. Lucas himself said this with the release of Episode I. The force was UNBALANCED because there was a dark element tainting everything in the universe. Because, see, the force is ALL "GOOD" because it surrounds, binds and holds together everything in the universe. It has nothing to do with having "more good guys than bad guys." It has to do with the simple presence of evil. Please -- for the love of God, please -- do not tell me that without evil, there can be no good. That's not the way it works in the universe GEORGE LUCAS'(not you) created.
    Originally posted by Fuzzy Logic
    Vader did sort of fulfill his prophecy by axin' all but 2 of the jedi's.
This is totally and utterly wrong. See above.
    Originally posted by Nate The Snake
    Well, then I'm going to blame it all on Yoda and Ben. Ben LETS Vader kill him, thus.
Obi-Wan lets Vader kill him because he knows he can aide Luke in a better way if he is one with the force rather than in an old and frail body. Yoda DIES because he's almost ONE THOUSAND YEARS OLD.




--Jason Baldwin
Writer of Stuff About Comic Books
Parts Unknown
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Darkenwood

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#25 Posted on
And I still don't understand why you're so anal about this crap, Papercuts. You condemn everyone for taking speculation as fact, but in this very thread you wrote:

"After Anakin turns, he fights Obi-Wan and loses, getting knocked into an active volcano. What is left of his badly burned body is put into the armor."

Do you have a source for this? If so, I guess I'm wrong and jumping to conclusions, but I think you are just as guilty as everyone else when it comes to speculation. I have seen nothing at starwars.com about Anakin getting knocked into a volcano.
So you too are feeding the rumor mill, and I don't see any point to your ranting against those who wish to talk about this stuff.




YOU WANT A PIECE OF ME!?! - The immortal, chilling words of...The Shockmaster!
Papercuts!
Potato korv








Since: 3.1.02
From: Springfield, Mo.

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by Parts Unknown
    And I still don't understand why you're so anal about this crap, Papercuts. You condemn everyone for taking speculation as fact, but in this very thread you wrote:

    "After Anakin turns, he fights Obi-Wan and loses, getting knocked into an active volcano. What is left of his badly burned body is put into the armor."

    Do you have a source for this? If so, I guess I'm wrong and jumping to conclusions, but I think you are just as guilty as everyone else when it comes to speculation.

I'm so anal about it because I'm a lifelong Star Wars fan and I know my stuff. The information has always been easily accessible to me, I don't see why many on these boards have such a problem tracking it down as well. I have no problems with anyone talking about Star Wars. My problem is with stuff like "The Droids get their memories wiped" and "Count Dooku kills Padme." Neither of these have been documented or explained. Both are NEW characters that weren't worked into the scheme of things back 1977 when Lucas first created Star Wars and its canon (which Anakin's fall into lava was part of). You guys are reading too much into a simple space opera movie.

I don't have any hyperlinks for all of this, but much of it can be tracked down via amazon or ebay or your local bookstore -- such as the novelization and the annotated screenplays.

Sources? Fine. How about George Lucas himself. In an interview with Bantha Tracks -- the official Star Wars fan Club Newsletter (circa the late 70s and 80s) he gave an interview where he laid out the backstory.

In an interview in Starlog in 1980, Mark Hamill talked about Luke Skywalker's background: "I remember very early on asking who my parents were and being told that my father and Obi Wan met Vader on the edge of a volcano and they had a duel. My father and Darth Vader fell into the crater and my father was instantly killed. Vader crawled out horribly scarred, and at that point the Emperor landed and Obi Wan ran into the forest, never to be seen again."

In STAR WARS: The Annotated Screenplays, Lucas reveals that he did hold a lava theory "at one point."

In the novelization of Return of the Jedi (from the SCREENPLAY by George Lucas), Obi-Wan Kenobi told Luke Skywalker the following: "We fought ... your father fell into a molten pit. When your father clawed his way out of that fiery pool, the change had been burned into him forever --- he was Darth Vader, without a trace of Anakin Skywalker. Irredeemably dark. Scarred. Kept alive only by machinery and his own black will ... "

Later in the book, when Vader is dying: "These were memories he wanted none of, not now. Memories of molten lava, crawling up his back ... no. This boy had pulled him from that pit --- here, now, with this act. This boy was good."

Lucas says, in STAR WARS: The Annotated Screenplays, Vader is a "three-quarter mechanical man and one-quarter human," but doesn't get into how this breaks down.

Now, while it doesn't specifically say "lava" in a number of the entries, the language (using "pit" and whatnot) suggests it as such.



--Jason Baldwin
Writer of Stuff About Comic Books
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

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#27 Posted on

    Originally posted by Papercuts!
      Originally posted by Nate The Snake
      Plus... have they covered the whole concept that Anakin, as Vader, DID (sorta) fulfill his prophecy of bringing balance to the Force? I mean... there were all kinds of "good" Jedi hanging around, and... what, two or three Sith lords? When Vader wiped out the Jedi, he certainly made things a lot more "balanced". Then Luke had to come along and screw it all up. (:
    Anakin brings balance to the force by killing the Emperor. Lucas himself said this with the release of Episode I. The force was UNBALANCED because there was a dark element tainting everything in the universe. Because, see, the force is ALL "GOOD" because it surrounds, binds and holds together everything in the universe. It has nothing to do with having "more good guys than bad guys." It has to do with the simple presence of evil. Please -- for the love of God, please -- do not tell me that without evil, there can be no good. That's not the way it works in the universe GEORGE LUCAS'(not you) created.



...wow. Ask a question, get a faceful o' bile.

That line of reasoning seems to imply that when the Emperor bit it, that the Dark Side is gone and everything would be hunky-dory and shiny and happy. If it was tainting the entire universe, and the Emperor was the source of the taint (which would be logical to assume, because the taint's gone with his death, right?) then he must've been one studly mama-jamma. One studly mama-jamma who just lets someone bench-press him and chuck him over a railing. Hmm... maybe the Force causes an intense death wish as a sort of side effect. Someone put Luke on a suicide watch. (:

And where did I say that I "created" this universe? I gave an interpretation of the story, based on what I knew of it. It seemed like a logical way to look at things, given the "bringing balance to the Force" idea.



    Obi-Wan lets Vader kill him because he knows he can aide Luke in a better way if he is one with the force rather than in an old and frail body. Yoda DIES because he's almost ONE THOUSAND YEARS OLD.



...you *did* see the smiley, right? Yikes.

But, I don't really see how getting killed allowed Obi-Wan to help Luke in any significant way, aside from the distraction it caused at the time. He could've told Luke to "use the Force" just as easily alive. None of the things Obi-Wan said or did would have made any more (or less) of an impact if he'd been alive when he said or did them. I'm still inclined to think that he saw it as a sort of penetance for helping to create Vader in the first place.

I'll give you Yoda's age, but he seemed to be perfectly healthy a couple of decades earlier, to the point of hopping around and whupping ass and whatnot. Yoda's species hasn't ever (to my admittedly limited knowledge) been identified, there's no way of knowing how long he was expected to live. The way he talked about his death, and the way he acted when Luke first showed up gave me the impression that he'd essentially admitted defeat. He's a hell of a lot livelier in Episode 1, before the world comes crashing down on the Jedi. I'd say it's just as likely that Yoda died of apathy, or despair, as old age. I said it tongue-in-cheek initially, but you have to admit that seeing your whole world fall apart despite your best efforts would have a pretty shattering effect.

There's a sense of fatalism in both Obi-Wan and Yoda. They've been defeated once too often. Luke's a glimmer of hope, but once they've given him all they've got to give, what's left for them? Nothing, so they let themselves die. Leaves poor Luke in sort of a bad spot, but if he had it easy there wouldn't be much of a story to tell after Jedi.



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka: HE raised the briefcase!
Fuzzy Logic
Summer sausage








Since: 31.3.02
From: Happy Valley - Goose Bay, Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada

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#28 Posted on
See, this is why I plan on killing myself by walking into a Star Wars convention, right into the middle of a group of rabid fanboys and talking like Jar Jar Binks. The death will be quick, but painfull.
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

Since last post: 3715 days
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#29 Posted on

    Originally posted by Papercuts!
    I'm so anal about it because I'm a lifelong Star Wars fan and I know my stuff. The information has always been easily accessible to me, I don't see why many on these boards have such a problem tracking it down as well. I have no problems with anyone talking about Star Wars. My problem is with stuff like "The Droids get their memories wiped" and "Count Dooku kills Padme." Neither of these have been documented or explained. Both are NEW characters that weren't worked into the scheme of things back 1977 when Lucas first created Star Wars and its canon (which Anakin's fall into lava was part of). You guys are reading too much into a simple space opera movie.


And I think you're taking this "simple space opera movie" a little too seriously.

There's nothing wrong with having more knowledge about a given subject. That's fairly admirable (as long as it's not taken to ridiculous extremes). But assuming, nay, DEMANDING that everyone else know all the minutae is unrealistic, at best. Not everyone has the desire, or the time, to read every word and watch every interview. That's sort of the point of having a thread about a particular subject. Someone doesn't know something, and rather than waste time sifting through reams and reams of information, they ask someone who *does*. It's much simpler, and wastes much less time. If you don't want to be the one who answers, that's cool. You're not obligated to do so.

As far as speculation... while it may not jibe with the gospel as laid down by Lucas, it does have its good points. For one, a line of speculation can allow you to look at something from a different angle, and give you a different interpretation of the character/story/whatever. I've always been of the opinion that a little imagination can be a good thing. Any form of art is going to be interpreted in ways the creator doesn't expect, it's part of the experience.



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka: HE raised the briefcase!
Papercuts!
Potato korv








Since: 3.1.02
From: Springfield, Mo.

Since last post: 4432 days
Last activity: 4342 days
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by Nate The Snake
    But assuming, nay, DEMANDING that everyone else know all the minutae is unrealistic, at best.
I'm not, under any circumstances asking anyone to do that. PartsUnknown questioned the accuracy of my statement. I went on the defensive, because I'm right and he's making an issue of me NOT being right.
    Originally posted by Nate The Snake
    Someone doesn't know something, and rather than waste time sifting through reams and reams of information, they ask someone who *does*. It's much simpler, and wastes much less time.
Right. I understand that clearly. The thing is, the questions you asked were already asked and addressed in a prior thread. I probably should have simply posted a link to those answers, rather than take my frustration at Freeway420's inaccuracies out on you. Of course, someone asking "who the f is Qui-Gon?" in a Star Wars thread didn't help my state of mind, either.
    Originally posted by Nate The Snake
    If you don't want to be the one who answers, that's cool. You're not obligated to do so.
And there are MORE than a couple of times I held back in this (and other threads) out of sheer frustration. But it's now apparent that when I *don't* answer, incorrect information goes out and someone inevitably accepts the incorrect information (despite the fact that in most cases, evidence to the contrary is right in front of them) as fact. Like the whole "Dooku kills Padme" thing.
    Originally posted by Nate The Snake
    For one, a line of speculation can allow you to look at something from a different angle, and give you a different interpretation of the character/story/whatever.
I have no problem with speculation. Talk about what you think happens to Dooku. Talk about what you think happens to the Droids' memories. Do that all you want. Just don't present it as FACT -- and this is usually done by starting such sentences with "I think" or "I wonder if..."



--Jason Baldwin
Writer of Stuff About Comic Books
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

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#31 Posted on

    Originally posted by Papercuts!
    Originally posted by Nate The Snake
    Someone doesn't know something, and rather than waste time sifting through reams and reams of information, they ask someone who *does*. It's much simpler, and wastes much less time.
Right. I understand that clearly. The thing is, the questions you asked were already asked and addressed in a prior thread. I probably should have simply posted a link to those answers, rather than take my frustration at Freeway420's inaccuracies out on you. Of course, someone asking "who the f is Qui-Gon?" in a Star Wars thread didn't help my state of mind, either.


Well, yeah, I can certainly see how that'd tip the scales a teensy bit. Heh. It's probably all HHH's fault, somehow... he should be in Episode 3. "The Beefiest Jedi, Darth Knee."

As an aside...

Dooku. Hee, hee...

Dooku!

I bet he turned to the dark side just 'cause everyone was always snickering about his name. (:



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka: HE raised the briefcase!
J. Kyle
Boudin blanc








Since: 21.2.02
From: The Land of Aloha

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Y!:
#32 Posted on
A Gamecube Geek says:


    Originally posted by Papercuts!
    Click Here for FIVE PAGES of Episode II discussion on this very board.


I didn't mean to start that. I was just psyched about my tickets.



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