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The W - Pro Wrestling - Foley {your opinion here}s about Flair book
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KaneRobot
Morcilla








Since: 24.2.02
From: Bowels

Since last post: 2432 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.78
Torch is saying Foley is all angry now about Flair's comments in the book, and "feels betrayed that Vince would allow such harsh comments." Now he's not returning phone calls from WWE. Aww, poor baby.

This, after Foley PRAISED Vince in his books for not cutting his opinion of people out (Vince included). I've liked Foley less and less since he stopped being active. He really comes off as bitter and, at times, arrogant (remember the "god forbid people be entertained" promo when he was left off a show one week?).

I seem to recall Foley not being so kind to Flair anyway in his books - the "guy who is looking in the mirror pretending to be a 50 year old Fonzie" comment comes to mind.



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DJ FrostyFreeze
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Hawthorne, CA

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

I'm calling bullsh*t on the whole story, just like the guy who already posted this in the Site Bashing folder.



TASTY!

KaneRobot
Morcilla








Since: 24.2.02
From: Bowels

Since last post: 2432 days
Last activity: 1725 days
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.78
No idea why this would be in "site bashing" instead of wrestling, but sorry regardless.



JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.61
It's hard to accurately gauge all of Flair's comments until the whole book is out, but from the excerpt I read, there was a pretty big difference in the manner of Foley's criticism of Flair and vice versa. But I won't say one way or another until I read the whole book. Then we can do a close reading and have a morality play.

FWIW, you cut out some of the context, namely that "McMahon would allow such harsh comments to be published in an official WWE publication, especially since Foley was more diplomatic in his books regarding current WWE talent he might have had harsh words for."

(I'm more interested in what the Observer reports about Foley w/r/t Flair since Meltzer and Foley are somewhat close.)
King Of Crap
Goetta








Since: 17.9.03
From: Holley, New York

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.18
    Originally posted by KaneRobot
    No idea why this would be in "site bashing" instead of wrestling, but sorry regardless.


I put it there because I think the Torch is full of shit, hence, I'm "bashing" them.

Either way, it's still and odd story.



You think WWE now is bad? Some of us had to live through 1993-1996!
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1437 days
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.06
I have no interest in this book at all. Put out another Best of Flair DVD and I'll be first in line. But I don't care what he has to say, particularly about wrestling.

For two reasons: I'll wager that he takes shots at easy targets, while aggressively sucking up to Vince and whoever else he depends on for a paycheck. Flair has already shown signs of this.

And I'll wager even MORE that the book is written in quasi-kayfabe fashion, since we're talking about Flair. Which is even more annoying.



-- Asteroid Boy


Wiener of the day: 23.7.02, 3.12.03

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CANADIAN BULLDOG
Andouille








Since: 5.3.03
From: TORONTO

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.67
There was an excerpt of the book in the latest Raw magazine, where Flair criticizes Foley's wrestling style, and essentially says Mick isn't in the same category as guys such as himself, Hogan and Sting. Flair's argument being the usual one that all Foley does is try to get himself killed in the ring.

Foley did indeed took several shots at Flair in Have A Nice Day, mostly about his booking/management style. Personally, I think in this case of turnabout being fair play. Foley was able to make fun of/criticize several people in his book (Flair included), and from the way he put it in the second book, very little was cut out by WWE. Why shouldn't Flair get the same treatment?

I don't know -- from the little I've read of Flair's book. I would tend to side with Foley's side of the story (though Flair should be allowed to write whatever he wants). Still, I'll have to read the whole book, because there may be some context missing....



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Snowball
Cotto








Since: 25.2.03
From: Manor Farm

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#8 Posted on
    Originally posted by asteroidboy
    I have no interest in this book at all. Put out another Best of Flair DVD and I'll be first in line. But I don't care what he has to say, particularly about wrestling.

    For two reasons: I'll wager that he takes shots at easy targets, while aggressively sucking up to Vince and whoever else he depends on for a paycheck. Flair has already shown signs of this.

    And I'll wager even MORE that the book is written in quasi-kayfabe fashion, since we're talking about Flair. Which is even more annoying.


I've read the book.

He does compliment McMahon, but if Vince has done for him what Flair says he's done, it's justified. Two, he's always complimented McMahon, even in WCW.

Bashing people isn't the name of the book. He does have negative comments about people, but that's life. Really balanced view of Dusty Rhodes. Really balanced about George Scott, Lex Luger, etc.

And trust me, it's not kayfabed. Not in the slightest. Flair's amazingly honest about himself. The reader is treated with respect as Flair doesn't pretend it's predetermined, uses whatever jargon necessary, etc.

For example, this sentence (p 122) about Bob Geigel (the paragraph is comparing Geigel's power to Sam Muchnick's):

"I'd arrive in a town and the promoter would want to play with a finish."

He talks about blading, booking, angles, anything.

(edited by Snowball on 2.7.04 2044)


all animals are equal
but some are more equal than others

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madiq
Boerewors








Since: 27.7.03
From: Brooklyn, NY

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.74
One thing that I haven't seen addressed is the fact that at the point when Foley's book was written, Flair was not employed by WWE. It wouldn't surprise me if Vince had an unwritten rule about playing nice with WWF employees back then. In fact, given what I've heard about subsequent books, issues are presented in the most pro-WWE manner possible. So for Flair to be critical of Foley isn't exactly turnabout.
ParagonOfVirtue
Salami








Since: 20.8.03
From: New Jersey, USA

Since last post: 3331 days
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.11
Foley should not be mad at WWE, as censoring Flair's true beliefs would be wrong. However, I believe Flair is being immature.

Foley had a more genuine reason for his anti-Flair comments. After all, Flair was the boss, Foley was the employee, and it was Flair that prevented Foley from advancing in the business. Reverse the situation, and Foley's probably a man that Ric Flair never even thought twice about at the time. As a result, if Foley had not written about Flair, Flair would not write about Foley.

Now because of what Foley did write, Flair has every right to respond. However, to devote even more text space than Foley himself to attack a man he otherwise wouldn't have written about and basically calling him an insult to the business, that's crossing the line. Say what you want, but Foley's comments on Flair were very generous given the situation. Every time Foley mentioned Flair, he always acknowledged how great of a performer Flair was, but it was his poor booking and general attitude that was a problem. Flair, meanwhile, comes off as very bitter towards Foley, with absolutely nothing positive to say.
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
    Originally posted by JMShapiro
    It's hard to accurately gauge all of Flair's comments until the whole book is out, but from the excerpt I read, there was a pretty big difference in the manner of Foley's criticism of Flair and vice versa. But I won't say one way or another until I read the whole book. Then we can do a close reading and have a morality play.

    FWIW, you cut out some of the context, namely that "McMahon would allow such harsh comments to be published in an official WWE publication, especially since Foley was more diplomatic in his books regarding current WWE talent he might have had harsh words for."

    (I'm more interested in what the Observer reports about Foley w/r/t Flair since Meltzer and Foley are somewhat close.)


It should be interesting because Dave is #1 Flair Fan 4 Life as well. But Foley and Bret have both written letters to the Observer recently so you know he keeps in contact with them. I bet he tries hard to stay neutral and ends up getting everyone mad at him.



WWE now serving only -> "DIET CHAVO - All the taste - Half the fat!"
Tribal Prophet
Andouille








Since: 9.1.02
From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 20 hours
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.93
    Originally posted by ParagonOfVirtue
    Foley should not be mad at WWE, as censoring Flair's true beliefs would be wrong. However, I believe Flair is being immature.

    Foley had a more genuine reason for his anti-Flair comments. After all, Flair was the boss, Foley was the employee, and it was Flair that prevented Foley from advancing in the business. Reverse the situation, and Foley's probably a man that Ric Flair never even thought twice about at the time. As a result, if Foley had not written about Flair, Flair would not write about Foley.

    Now because of what Foley did write, Flair has every right to respond. However, to devote even more text space than Foley himself to attack a man he otherwise wouldn't have written about and basically calling him an insult to the business, that's crossing the line. Say what you want, but Foley's comments on Flair were very generous given the situation. Every time Foley mentioned Flair, he always acknowledged how great of a performer Flair was, but it was his poor booking and general attitude that was a problem. Flair, meanwhile, comes off as very bitter towards Foley, with absolutely nothing positive to say.


To say that Flair would never have thought twice about Foley is a BIG jump to make. I mean, wasn't Foley one of the main guys on top when Flair's home company WCW really started to go under? Wasn't Foley a huge draw (one of the biggest) and the most loved wrestler in the same profession as Flair?

The last few years, Foley's made brought in more money, and had more fan support than Flair. Don't you think that it you were Ric Flair, that you'd know about the 5 guys in the world who were currently better at what you do than you are?

Besides, it's Flair's book. If he wants to say nothing nice about Foley, maybe it's because he has nothing nice to say. Not everyone has to like everyone, and there's nothing stopping Flair from being honest if that's how he feels.

I'd personally rather read an *honest* book about wrestling than one written to make sure no one's feelings were hurt. In this business, A book like that would be about 7 pages.


Tribal Prophet
Screeching Weasel
Tocino








Since: 13.6.04

Since last post: 3596 days
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.53
Does any of this really matter anyways? This is wrestling, and though true feelings may be the foundation, this will obviously turn into an angle sooner or later, and it will be business as usual. Is it too much to suggest Flair purposely inserted exagerated perceptions just to add fuel to a future angle? And Foley's reactions are probably quasi-shoot as well.

And as far as him being a Mcmahon kiss ass, I think it's irrelevent; Flair has ALWAYS spoken very well of Mcmahon.

He was brutally honest about Hogan, and I think his comments on him are worth the price of the book alone.
TopTenPro
Italian
No longer registered








Since: 21.3.04
From: Johnson City, TN

Since last post: 3579 days
Last activity: 3375 days
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.82
OK this debate has the old TTP's blood boiling. I like watching Foley interviews, a few good surprise pops, maybe a spot or two. Flair, I like the matches,interviews,pops, and charisma, I am 28. I started watching wrestling in 1984/5 the beginning of Hulkamania.
I have read neither book. It seems to follow the old 80s movie He Said/She Said, or the more current idea Men are from Venus/ Woman are from Mars. These men come from two different eras, with two distinct styles. It is natural they cross one another, and dislike one another.
Sammartino to Hogan, Hogan to Hart, Hart to Goldberg, the evolution does not make room for compromise.
Let's go back to the old TopTen:

Pre-Hardcore modern era:
1.Flair
2.Hogan
3.Steamboat
4.Savage
5.Warrior
6.Sting
7.Andre"the Giant"
8.Million Dollar Man
9.Mr.Perfect
10.Lex Lugar

Hardcore era (modern):
1.Steve Austin
2.Rock
3.Undertaker
4.Mick Foley
5.Booker T.
6.Chris Benoit
7.Eddie Gurerro
8.Scott Steiner
9.Big Show
10.DDP

Which list of wrestlers would you rather watch in a best of DVD? The Hardcore era was/is about "sports entertainment" the pre-hardcore days was about kayfabe. Sure we knew the wrestlers were "pretending" but it was more true storytelling.
Spots were not anticipated, they were appreciated.
Interviews were not staged,they were from the heart.
Right wore white (red or yellow),wrong wore black
Gray was not a color.
Wrestlers were not entertainers, they were wrestlers.

Flair, Foley, they did the same job in different ways. Weather you like A or B, learn to love them, it is wrestling history, Whoooo Have a nice day!
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1994 days
Last activity: 1928 days
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.61
"I like watching Foley interviews, a few good surprise pops, maybe a spot or two."

"Which list of wrestlers would you rather watch in a best of DVD? The Hardcore era was/is about "sports entertainment" the pre-hardcore days was about kayfabe. Sure we knew the wrestlers were "pretending" but it was more true storytelling.
Spots were not anticipated, they were appreciated.
Interviews were not staged,they were from the heart.
Right wore white (red or yellow),wrong wore black
Gray was not a color.
Wrestlers were not entertainers, they were wrestlers."

Resident Fanatical Foley Mark Time.

If you only like watching "a spot or two" of Foley's, then you have little to no appreciation of the psychology of a match. Don't blame the guy because YOU and other audience members can't get past the few big spots he's done and look at the excellent storytelling that goes into each and every one of his matches. Foley, had he been born a decade earlier, could have given Flair a run for his money in terms of in-ring psychology.

Foley is perhaps the greatest brawler in history. That's putting my neck in a noose, but there ya go. And truthful promos? Jeezus, if there was one beacon of truth in the late 90s WWF, it was him. Why do you tihnk he was so popular? He was real, he was 3-D, he made you feel those emotions.

Goddammit, every single time the Foley debate is raised, it always comes down to "he was good at jumping off things and taking bumps, but he wasn't a good wrestler". He WAS a good wrestler. He was, dare I say it, the best they had during 1998, when Michaels had gone and Austin was still wrestling uber-protected and Rock was still being polished. He knows what to do and when to do it, just like Flair. He's connected with the crowd in a way that no-one, NO-ONE, ever has, connected in a way that goes beyond face or heel, beyond cheering and booing at the right time. He is one of a kind.

And for Flair to take cheap shots out of insecurity about his own position in the wrestling world (kayfabe being broken? the bar being raised? my self-centred booking being criticised? can't have any of that!) is an insult. Foley very diplomatically stated that Flair was a pretty damn bad booker to be working under, whilst simultaneously pointing out what a legend he is. Flair denegrates Foley's entire style, career and accomplishments, just because he's part of an "old guard" of wrestling that finds what Foley did to be unnacceptable by their out-of-date rules and regulations. What he's saying is the equivalent of, say, Steve Austin writing "Flair was nothing more than a knee-drop, a "Whoo!" and the figure four". It's not tit-for-tat in any way.



Once upon a time in China, some believe, around the year one double-ought three, head priest of the White Lotus Clan, Pai Mei was walking down the road, contemplating whatever it is that a man of Pai Mei's infinite power contemplates - which is another way of saying "who knows" - when a Shaolin monk appeared, traveling in the opposite direction. As the monk and the priest crossed paths, Pai Mei, in a practically unfathomable display of generosity, gave the monk the slightest of nods. The nod was not returned. Now was it the intention of the Shaolin monk to insult Pai Mei or did he just fail to see the generous social gesture? The motives of the monk remain unknown. What is known, are the consequences. The next morning Pai Mei appeared at the Shaolin Temple and demanded of the Temple's head abbot that he offer Pai Mei his neck to repay the insult. The Abbot at first tried to console Pai Mei, only to find Pai Mei was inconsolable. So began the massacre of the Shaolin Temple and all 60 of the monks inside at the fists of the White Lotus. And so began the legend of Pai Mei's five point palm exploding heart technique.
KaneRobot
Morcilla








Since: 24.2.02
From: Bowels

Since last post: 2432 days
Last activity: 1725 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.78
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    And for Flair to take cheap shots out of insecurity about his own position in the wrestling world (kayfabe being broken? the bar being raised? my self-centred booking being criticised? can't have any of that!) is an insult. Foley very diplomatically stated that Flair was a pretty damn bad booker to be working under, whilst simultaneously pointing out what a legend he is. Flair denegrates Foley's entire style, career and accomplishments, just because he's part of an "old guard" of wrestling that finds what Foley did to be unnacceptable by their out-of-date rules and regulations. What he's saying is the equivalent of, say, Steve Austin writing "Flair was nothing more than a knee-drop, a "Whoo!" and the figure four". It's not tit-for-tat in any way.


Where's the law that says Flair has to praise Foley just because Foley praised him in-between cheap shots? Like someone above said, I'd rather read a book where the guy is being honest about how he feels than someone towing the company line and being censored because he might hurt someone's feelings a little. You call FLAIR insecure? If Foley is really that bent out of shape like is being reported, sounds to me like he's the one with insecurity issues.

It looks like those so-called "out-of-date rules and regulations" you mentioned may not be so out of date after all, since they've drastically cut back on the ridiculous bumps that Foley had a big hand in making popular.

I'm glad to see someone finally take it to Foley like this. It's been quite a while coming, and while anyone else he's had a tiff with in the past has had to settle for rebuttals in newsletters reaching like 1% of the audience, now the general public get to hear from someone else for a change.

As far as a DVD collection...I'd certainly rather watch a Flair collection than a Foley collection. And I think the DVD sales charts will back me up on that one, correct me if I'm wrong.

...yes, I'm aware Foley's book will certainly have higher sales numbers than Flair's - but hey, when Foley's book was #1, the Rock put out a piece of crap ghostwritten book and it ALSO got to #1. Didn't the abomination that was Chyna's book also get on the charts? It was a different time in wrestling.


    If you only like watching "a spot or two" of Foley's, then you have little to no appreciation of the psychology of a match.


Sigh. Yes. I must hate well-done matches just because I don't worship the wrestling technician that IS Dude Love.


    Don't blame the guy because YOU and other audience members can't get past the few big spots he's done and look at the excellent storytelling that goes into each and every one of his matches.


Yeah, gotta love those punch-and-kick-before-he-pulls-out-the-sock-for-the-win matches he had in his later years. Hey, I can respect the fact that he was trying to "save himself" for a few big matches (ie HHH at the 2000 Rumble), but don't even pretend "each and every one of his matches" was some brilliant masterpiece. Even Foley himself said he stunk up the joint quite a bit later on.


    Foley, had he been born a decade earlier, could have given Flair a run for his money in terms of in-ring psychology


Foley, had he been born a decade earlier, could have had a hell of a feud with Bruiser Brody. That's about all I can say for him.


    ". He WAS a good wrestler. He was, dare I say it, the best they had during 1998, when Michaels had gone and Austin was still wrestling uber-protected and Rock was still being polished. He knows what to do and when to do it, just like Flair. He's connected with the crowd in a way that no-one, NO-ONE, ever has, connected in a way that goes beyond face or heel, beyond cheering and booing at the right time. He is one of a kind.


Since you're a self-proclaimed "fanatical Foley mark," I can see why you'd say that. However, most of the top "legendary" guys in WWE ALSO connect with the fans in a way "no one, NO ONE" has either. There's no other Flair, there's no other Undertaker, there's no other Rock...you get the idea. Do you really think when people stood and gave Flair the standing ovation after his match with HHH (from the DVD set for those that have it) that it didn't go "beyond cheering or booing at the right time?" Foley has certainly carved himself a place in WWF/E history, and IS one-of-a-kind...but in a business where almost ALL the guys on top for any significant length of time are one of a kind...well...you get the idea.

I'm not afraid to admit that I'm NOT much of a Foley fan, which you may gather from this post, although most of what I said not is overly biased against Foley. Character-wise, I liked his early Mankind stuff and his ECW stuff was highly memorable, but his wrestling wasn't that appealing to me. Different strokes I guess. If he was working with someone good at the time (Michaels, HHH) he'd usually have some memorable stuff, and he had some entertaining matches with Undertaker as well.

From around the Socko-era on, his personality just rubbed me the wrong way. He always strikes me as one of those guys who think they are hilarious, then has a "who, me?" attitude when someone even hints at it. His bitterness over the last several years has reared its head a few times as well, which is what's REALLY annoying to me. If Foley admires Terry Funk so much, he should take a page out of his book and be a little more graceful in his inactivity/retirement.

*edit - spelling*

(edited by KaneRobot on 3.7.04 0801)

J. Kyle
Boudin blanc








Since: 21.2.02
From: The Land of Aloha

Since last post: 89 days
Last activity: 3 days
AIM:  
Y!:
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.68
X-E's co-Worst Poster of all time! JKyle.com says:

I'm a Foley fan... not a fanatic. The fanaticism died the day Ode to Freud was replaced by a car wreck. Then my hero turned into a bit of a self parody who still happened to be damn entertaining.

Still, I gotta side with those who think Foley was a good worker. Best brawler ever? He damn well might be.

Flair DVD sales beat Foley sales? Give it 20 years, then let's do legend arguing.

Can Flair take cheap shots at Mick? It's a free country. Does he owe Mick the respect Mick gave him? I'd like to think so, but again, it's a free country. If you were in Mick's shoes, you'd be a little pissed too. Whether you have the right to be... we can argue that all day.

But how about we don't and say we did?

Remember, we still have Mordecai to make fun of. For now.



Back where the women could care less about me
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1994 days
Last activity: 1928 days
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.61
"It looks like those so-called "out-of-date rules and regulations" you mentioned may not be so out of date after all, since they've drastically cut back on the ridiculous bumps that Foley had a big hand in making popular."

Actually, the common theory on Flair's dislike of Foley is less to do with his bumping and more to do with his blurring of the wall between the wrestlers and the audience, something which was absolutely necessary for the business to evolve and survive.

"Sigh. Yes. I must hate well-done matches just because I don't worship the wrestling technician that IS Dude Love."

Did I say *anything* about technical wrestling? Maybe you hate well-done matches because you're not open to any other style than the accepted "great technical wrestling match" norm.

"I'm glad to see someone finally take it to Foley like this....His bitterness over the last several years has reared its head a few times as well, which is what's REALLY annoying to me. If Foley admires Terry Funk so much, he should take a page out of his book and be a little more graceful in his inactivity/retirement."

And you say you're NOT biased against Foley? How has he been overly bitter in any way? He pointed out what a mess the Invasion angle had become, as well when he was brought back as commissioner then promptly not used for two weeks, then said his goodbyes and left. Then he's come back and worked a Hell of a program with Orton. Where in Hell has this "bitterness" come from? Let's look at ol' Slick Ric, shall we, who may be feeling a little bitter himself that someone like Foley has managed to become a huge star after he said he never would? Or how he rose to the top utilising a different style to himself? Or how Foley may mean more to today's wrestling fans than he does? Bitter much? Maybe, maybe not. But just as likely as your percieved bitterness in Foley.

"Yeah, gotta love those punch-and-kick-before-he-pulls-out-the-sock-for-the-win matches he had in his later years. Hey, I can respect the fact that he was trying to "save himself" for a few big matches (ie HHH at the 2000 Rumble), but don't even pretend "each and every one of his matches" was some brilliant masterpiece. Even Foley himself said he stunk up the joint quite a bit later on."

Jesus, and Flair hasn't?!

"Foley, had he been born a decade earlier, could have had a hell of a feud with Bruiser Brody. That's about all I can say for him."

Uh....huh.

"As far as a DVD collection...I'd certainly rather watch a Flair collection than a Foley collection. And I think the DVD sales charts will back me up on that one, correct me if I'm wrong."

The only reasons Flair's collection outsold Foley's are that a)Foley's got like three floating around and b)All of his matches are recent and very easy to get ahold of.

Bottom line, Foley showed Flair some respect, whereas Flair has shown none. And that, to me, puts the advantage with Mick. And hey-at least he knew when to hang up his boots and move on.

"Remember, we still have Mordecai to make fun of. For now."

Sadly not-ol' Gandalf's been shipped back to OVW for a retooling.





Once upon a time in China, some believe, around the year one double-ought three, head priest of the White Lotus Clan, Pai Mei was walking down the road, contemplating whatever it is that a man of Pai Mei's infinite power contemplates - which is another way of saying "who knows" - when a Shaolin monk appeared, traveling in the opposite direction. As the monk and the priest crossed paths, Pai Mei, in a practically unfathomable display of generosity, gave the monk the slightest of nods. The nod was not returned. Now was it the intention of the Shaolin monk to insult Pai Mei or did he just fail to see the generous social gesture? The motives of the monk remain unknown. What is known, are the consequences. The next morning Pai Mei appeared at the Shaolin Temple and demanded of the Temple's head abbot that he offer Pai Mei his neck to repay the insult. The Abbot at first tried to console Pai Mei, only to find Pai Mei was inconsolable. So began the massacre of the Shaolin Temple and all 60 of the monks inside at the fists of the White Lotus. And so began the legend of Pai Mei's five point palm exploding heart technique.
KaneRobot
Morcilla








Since: 24.2.02
From: Bowels

Since last post: 2432 days
Last activity: 1725 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.44
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    "It looks like those so-called "out-of-date rules and regulations" you mentioned may not be so out of date after all, since they've drastically cut back on the ridiculous bumps that Foley had a big hand in making popular."

    Actually, the common theory on Flair's dislike of Foley is less to do with his bumping and more to do with his blurring of the wall between the wrestlers and the audience, something which was absolutely necessary for the business to evolve and survive.


What "common theory?" Is this your typical internet common theory like "THE WARROR IS COMING BACKK!!1111" ? If that really is the main reason Flair is so pissed with Foley (which I doubt, especially since Flair is so upfront about insider stuff in his book), it makes no sense and Flair is off his rocker there. I mean, look how Foley broke new grounds for realistic characters, letting the audience in on the inner-workings of the business by sitting in a dungeon, rocking back and forth while squealing. And filming Titantron videos of himself morphing into three different characters.

If that "common theory" was really the case, he would have likely gone after a lot more people than Foley. Although I guess Foley kind of drew attention to himself with his comments.


    Did I say *anything* about technical wrestling? Maybe you hate well-done matches because you're not open to any other style than the accepted "great technical wrestling match" norm.


Considering The Undertaker is one of my favorite wrestlers of all time...nope. Not even close.

I don't care if it's brilliant technical wrestling, a high-flying extravaganza, or something Foley is more comfortable doing...sometimes he just joked around in the ring. Many times he was too injured to perform at a normal level. And sometimes he was just not on that night, same as anyone else. Could he "tell an amazing, roller-coaster story? Sure, sometimes, depending on who he was matched against. But he's not this amazing genius you're making him out to be.


    How has he been overly bitter in any way? He pointed out what a mess the Invasion angle had become, as well when he was brought back as commissioner then promptly not used for two weeks, then said his goodbyes and left.


Foley's "God forbid people be entertained" on live TV during a Raw broadcast is one of the most bitter lines I've EVER heard ANY wrestler use. As if Foley was the only person on the roster - oh, wait, he wasn't even on the roster - capable of making the crowd react at all. How nice of him to endorse the company like that when they give him time to plug his little book that wouldn't sell 10 copies without Raw plugging it.

So Hogan talks about how he's not a fan of stuff like (paraphrasing here) Mick Foley killing himself out there (which is a pretty fair observation) so Foley mocks Hogan by saying he could go out there and "milk an ovation for 15 minutes too" referring to the reaction he got in Canada on Smackdown. Yeah, it couldn't possibly be that Hulk Fucking Hogan is the biggest name in wrestling of all time and it was a genuine reaction. I seem to recall he's also made cracks about Hogan's book not selling as well as his. And although Foley's books were good reads...well...at that time, Essa Rios could have wrote "fuck the U.S.A." over and over again for 500 pages, then taken a shit and crushed it between the pages, and it would have been in the top 10. People would buy ANYTHING wrestling related back then.


    Jesus, and Flair hasn't?!


I don't disagree with you there. Can you point me to where I said "look at the excellent storytelling that goes into each and every one of his matches" regarding Flair, as you did Foley?


    "Foley, had he been born a decade earlier, could have had a hell of a feud with Bruiser Brody. That's about all I can say for him."



    Uh....huh.


Until one of us builds a time machine and takes Mick Foley back with us, I'm going to let this one go since there's no point in arguing "could-ofs." I'm working on it though. I'm up to 1.18 gigawatts.


    The only reasons Flair's collection outsold Foley's are that a)Foley's got like three floating around and b)All of his matches are recent and very easy to get ahold of.


The ONLY reasons? How about c) Flair's been on TV more lately d) Flair is more recognized as a legend due to being around for so long e) More advertising f) Most people would rather see something like Flair-Steamboat than something like Vader-Cactus...and no, not all of the matches on there are "very easy to get a hold of." The only fans who have seen his older WCW stuff and ECW stuff are die-hard fans and tape traders, not the general public. Hell, even I haven't seen a chunk of what's on that DVD set, and my f'ing wall is lined with wrestling VHS tapes over the past 10-15 years.

Flair's had videos released as well. They were WCW videos, but that doesn't matter, they were all sold in most of the same stores right next to each other.

I know it's hard to keep the Foley mark in you down, but the Flair set sold more because to most wrestling fans it was more appealing and had higher quality stuff.


    Bottom line, Foley showed Flair some respect, whereas Flair has shown none. And that, to me, puts the advantage with Mick. And hey-at least he knew when to hang up his boots and move on.


Ok, fine. Let's see how Foley reacts. Will he be the bigger man and ignore what Flair said and be confident in his own accomplishments...or will he come back with more unfunny jokes and tear into Flair now? Hey, I HOPE it's the latter. I'd like to hear what Foley thinks about it.

Flair is still as entertaining as almost anyone on Raw...when they actually let him perform. It's time to move on when the person thinks they can't do it anymore and they become an embarassment in the ring. Flair's not perfect every night, but he's certainly not an embarassment.



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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.20
This whole "God forbid people be entertained" thing...where was that line from? I don't remember the context or the situation it was said in.
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The installment mentioned PAC The Man Gravity Forgot, and I found some material on Youtube. He's quite the flier. And he has a good look. Someone's got to pick him up for weekly TV.
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