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25.10.14 0045
The W - Pro Wrestling - Foley is Gone ... ?
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BigDaddyLoco
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.53
Well, I guess we all had an idea that he was leaving, but from this bit from the Meltz's site he seems to think TNA is a sure thing.


    -- Still nothing official on Mick Foley, whose WWE contract expired yesterday. It is expected that a statement from the Gillespie Agency, which is also handling Ric Flair's affairs, will be released today. It's also all but confirmed that he's going to TNA.


That seems sort of like a big thing. Considering Mick and Vince have been doing pretty good business for so long now and Mick has mostly walked the company walk and talked the company talk. Then again Mick can't seem to make up his mind on what it is he wants to do with himself, so this could just be another one of his passing fads, but if done right and if he is allowed to rip tear on the mic than maybe this could be something.

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.21
Foley has always stated he wanted back in the ring with Sting because he liked the chemistry they shared. I also can easily see him in a program with Abyss. I just hope he's doing this amicably (which is rare in the business) to pursue his own desires for what he wants to do in the business. After all, he's proved that he's made a mark on the business by refreshing the Undertaker's career in '98 and making HHH in 2000.



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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.41

    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    if done right and if he is allowed to rip tear on the mic than maybe this could be something.



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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.68
    Originally posted by Lexus
    Foley has always stated he wanted back in the ring with Sting because he liked the chemistry they shared. I also can easily see him in a program with Abyss. I just hope he's doing this amicably (which is rare in the business) to pursue his own desires for what he wants to do in the business. After all, he's proved that he's made a mark on the business by refreshing the Undertaker's career in '98 and making HHH in 2000.


I'm not sure if it's amicably. Unfortunately I can't recall the source, but I read one report that Foley was going to TNA because he thought it would cement his legacy to help TNA succeed and compete on even footing (or perhaps surpass) WWE. If true, likely his goal is for an "I told you so" to WWE.
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.14
    Originally posted by Hokienautic
      Originally posted by Lexus
      Foley has always stated he wanted back in the ring with Sting because he liked the chemistry they shared. I also can easily see him in a program with Abyss. I just hope he's doing this amicably (which is rare in the business) to pursue his own desires for what he wants to do in the business. After all, he's proved that he's made a mark on the business by refreshing the Undertaker's career in '98 and making HHH in 2000.


    I'm not sure if it's amicably. Unfortunately I can't recall the source, but I read one report that Foley was going to TNA because he thought it would cement his legacy to help TNA succeed and compete on even footing (or perhaps surpass) WWE. If true, likely his goal is for an "I told you so" to WWE.


I know that was his goal when he was going to sign with TNA three years ago. But he re-signed with WWE instead and they pretty well killed off his legend aura. He can still do the best interviews in wrestling, but his TNA Impact will probably be about 1/100th as TNA Impactful as it would've been if he'd gone there for the first show on Spike before WWE flattened him out.
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.97

I like the idea either dave or bryan had of making foley the babyface authority figure and turning cornette heel, leting them cut promos on each other for a little while.

of course, Foley signing isn't enough for me to lift my "no russo" embargo of TNA.



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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.55
The WWE did little to kill off the legend aura, considering more people watched what he did in his 'heyday' of the late 90's than in the last few years.

One hot interview and that all comes back. Granted he had more momentum a few years back, but the business itself has been losing steam due to changes in mainstream entertainment and society on the whole (I abhor when people say MMA is drawing their fans when MMA isn't drawing much at all).

I may be a bit biased here because I'm both a Foley mark AND a TNA mark, don't get me wrong. I think 3 minutes of Jay Lethal, Samoa Joe, Kurt Angle, A.J. Styles, or Sting wrestling is worth far more than sitting through 20 minutes of ANY given WWE match that loaded with rest holds and lag, and on that note who would want to watch a Kevin Nash or Abyss match that took longer than 5? I may be subviolet on the entertainment spectrum, but I do know the more vibrant colors when I sees it, and I think Foley could be completely maximized within a 10 to 15 minute segment rather than a 30 second cameo or 30 minute match. Gives the man a chance to be all killer, no filler, none of the glaring weaknesses he could concievably bring to the table.

And seriously, stop with the Russo hate. Jesus, it's rediculous how some members of the RAPIDLY FUCKING DIMINISHING, I MEAN FUCKING DIMINISHED internet wrestling community forget that he was integral in creating the entertainment that caused it's rise. Ten years later and nobody has replaced WrestleLine, CRZ (who I liked), Scott Keith (who I didn't), and we're stuck with what Meltzer and the Observer has to say, just like TWENTY years ago. He had some terrible ideas (see: where the fuck WCW wound up), but he's also had some pretty damned good ones (see: Rocky Maivia becoming the Rock, Stone Cold, STANDING UP AND TELLING VINCE MCMAHON HIS IDEAS WERE SILLY).

Shit. I don't mean to bring the hate and get all emotional. I'm just saying give the guy a chance and see if you're entertained. If not, find what entertains you.



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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.83
You're more than kinda all over the place here. CRZ and Keith were never really in the breaking news business, so you're comparing apples to oranges. Meltzer is a legitimate journalist in the sense that, like Jay Glazer in football or Buster Olney in baseball, he has sources that give him information that is usually accurate. So it makes perfect sense that once all the dust had cleared from the boom, that he would be the one standing.

To credit Russo for being integral to...anything is flat out horrible to the worst extent of the word. He was a video clerk who could spin a two page yarn in WWF RAW magazine. That worked out well for him, because unlike real life, the article is over in about five minute, which is how long his attention span is/was. Quite frankly, he really wasn't even good at that. I feel that Shapiro, Cubs, Seadawg, Michaelangelo, Hocking, and even Hot Newz could write circles around Russo if they had to. And that's just slash writers off the top of my head after five seconds. He's had numerous chances, more than anybody should be given, and every time he shows serious signs of not just A.D.D, which would be normal for pro wrestling, but super duper A.D.D.

Russo was so terrible at his job that it was conceivable, no -- BELIEVABLE, that he was a plant from WWF to ruin WCW. That's how good of a job he did in his highest profile gig.

If you really need a good read about the ineptitude of Vince Russo (and Eric Bischoff and others) you should pick up R.D. Reynolds' The Death of WCW.

On a final note, a twenty minute Festus - Undertaker match would kick the shit out of any three minute Jay Lethal match.
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.97
    Originally posted by Lexus
    The WWE did little to kill off the legend aura, considering more people watched what he did in his 'heyday' of the late 90's than in the last few years.

    One hot interview and that all comes back. Granted he had more momentum a few years back, but the business itself has been losing steam due to changes in mainstream entertainment and society on the whole (I abhor when people say MMA is drawing their fans when MMA isn't drawing much at all).

    I may be a bit biased here because I'm both a Foley mark AND a TNA mark, don't get me wrong. I think 3 minutes of Jay Lethal, Samoa Joe, Kurt Angle, A.J. Styles, or Sting wrestling is worth far more than sitting through 20 minutes of ANY given WWE match that loaded with rest holds and lag, and on that note who would want to watch a Kevin Nash or Abyss match that took longer than 5? I may be subviolet on the entertainment spectrum, but I do know the more vibrant colors when I sees it, and I think Foley could be completely maximized within a 10 to 15 minute segment rather than a 30 second cameo or 30 minute match. Gives the man a chance to be all killer, no filler, none of the glaring weaknesses he could concievably bring to the table.

    And seriously, stop with the Russo hate. Jesus, it's rediculous how some members of the RAPIDLY FUCKING DIMINISHING, I MEAN FUCKING DIMINISHED internet wrestling community forget that he was integral in creating the entertainment that caused it's rise. Ten years later and nobody has replaced WrestleLine, CRZ (who I liked), Scott Keith (who I didn't), and we're stuck with what Meltzer and the Observer has to say, just like TWENTY years ago. He had some terrible ideas (see: where the fuck WCW wound up), but he's also had some pretty damned good ones (see: Rocky Maivia becoming the Rock, Stone Cold, STANDING UP AND TELLING VINCE MCMAHON HIS IDEAS WERE SILLY).

    Shit. I don't mean to bring the hate and get all emotional. I'm just saying give the guy a chance and see if you're entertained. If not, find what entertains you.


I was enjoying TNA before they re-hired him. I hear the reports about the TV show and PPVs and it appears that he has not substancially changed from the person that booked either in WCW or in his first run in TNA. I will support the product again once he is removed and the person put in his place has time to turn the company in a different direction. Thankfully, it is not my job to have to watch the show and report/write/comment on it.



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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.14
Whoa. Is this one of those adrenaline rush adrenaline rushes they talk about?

    Originally posted by Lexus
    The WWE did little to kill off the legend aura, considering more people watched what he did in his 'heyday' of the late 90's than in the last few years.


Yeah, but most of those people don't watch anymore. Whereas most of the people watching now are also watching now. The people who watch now have seen a Mick Foley who was thrown in matches as an afterthought and never got promo time to talk about them, who teamed with Hornswoggle in TV matches against the Highlanders and Jonathan Coachman, who was thrown out of the Royal Rumble like a nobody, and whose appearances were treated about as meaningless as your average Roddy Piper cameo. Roddy Piper showing up in TNA (again) would not be a big deal. Not when Kurt Angle showing up in TNA was, in the long run, not even a big deal.


    One hot interview and that all comes back.


I agree to an extent that he can rehab his character from where it was at with some great interviews and just by being in a company where the people in charge actually think he's good and want him to come off as a big deal. He showed during the feuds with Orton and Edge and Flair that when Mick Foley goes "alright you fucker, enough is enough, bang bang," there still aren't anyone better at doing intense, emotionally-resonating wrestling feuds.

But the level he had as a protected star and a special attraction who could be any kind of draw, like when he came back to referee the Hell in a Cell in 2003 or the Rock & Sock vs. Evolution match that was by all rights the real main event of Wrestlemania 20, is never coming back.


    Ten years later and nobody has replaced WrestleLine, CRZ (who I liked), Scott Keith (who I didn't), and we're stuck with what Meltzer and the Observer has to say, just like TWENTY years ago.


That ... sucks?


    but he's also had some pretty damned good ones (see: Rocky Maivia becoming the Rock,


Vince Russo: "The Rock, an idea for you that I came up with. Have an enormous amount of charisma."


    Stone Cold


Vince Russo: "Steve Austin, an idea for you that I came up with. Have an enormous amount of charisma."


    STANDING UP AND TELLING VINCE MCMAHON HIS IDEAS WERE SILLY).


I dunno. One of those guys has been a very successful wrestling booker since 1999 and one has been an abysmal failure, so maybe Vince McMahon should stand up and tell Vince Russo his ideas are silly.


    Originally posted by Shane Spear
    Shapiro, Cubs, Seadawg, Michaelangelo, Hocking, and even Hot Newz ... And that's just slash writers off the top of my head after five seconds.


I do not write gay sex fanfics! Well, there was that one where the Hardys were making out with each other.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 3.9.08 0356)
Excalibur05
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.62
    Originally posted by Super Shane Spear
    I feel that Shapiro, Cubs, Seadawg, Michaelangelo, Hocking, and even Hot Newz could write circles around Russo if they had to.


Could you imagine the crazy special effects budget if I wrote WWE TV? I'd drive McMahon out of business in a week!

Seriously, though, the crazy thing about Russo and McMahon was that they wrote incredibly shitty TV in a time when it was cool to write incredibly shitty TV. Baywatch was the number one show in the world, for Pete's sake. So writing a show where a guy does nothing but drink for two hours straight and beat up his boss? TV Gold! Plus, towards the end of that, you had a legit movie star in the making coming up through the ranks. That's not even to mention that the reason they were so hot in the first place is because people were already hooked on what WCW was offering.

Ten years later and the audience has grown up, and the product largely hasn't. This is mostly a result of the fact that when wrestling takes itself seriously it becomes too fucking pretentious for words, but also due to the fact that men in their underwear in public can only be just so serious.

The one thing that Russo and McMahon did do for each other was offer a set of checks and balances. For every shitty idea of McMahon's Russo shot down, McMahon did the same. I think it was just like...a Perfect Storm of bad ideas. WCW tried to replicate that idea to hillarious results.

Back on topic:

I think the idea of Foley as a legend is largely impunable. People know who Mick Foley is, and know he's a big deal former world champion.

I think a lot of the "destruction of Mick Foley" in WWE the past few years was his own fault. He had two mediocre novels which didn't sell well, so his future earning potential outside the confines of the wrestling industry looked pretty grim. He did great things with Randy Orton and Edge, but kind of hinged his last WWE run on trying to get over a moderately good female wrestler in a company where only spectacular female wrestlers really get over.

I understand that he thought Melina was really something else, but he was thinking with his heart (and penis) and not with his head. So, he essentially forced WWE to write him off TV during a fairly successful run just so he play knight in shining armor for a valet.

That's indicitive largely of the other problem with Foley's "legacy," in that since he wasn't a regular character, we all knew whenever he showed up, it was either to get punked out or jobbed, or do some wacky comedy routine. He never wanted to be a regular part of the show, never wanted to win a match, but he wanted to come back and put people over, so essentially, he became Barry Horowitz.

I think, like Sting, Foley's not going to have much of a long term impact(!) on TNA's ratings, but I'm interested to see what he does with more creative freedoms. I have a feeling that we'll see him jobbing to Jay Leathal and Alex Shelley in matches that have no effect on their pushes whatsoever though, and that makes me kind of sad.



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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.77
The biggest fear I have is that Foley will be willing to play the part of "Legend scorned by WWE".

Crappy feuds/stories in the past few years or not, the Mankind/Cactus/Dude/Foley feuds and stories are ones that should be looked back at fondly. He provided us with great moments.

It would suck if he cuts a bunch of WWE sucks but TNA is awesome promos just cos he's pissed at Vince right now.
He throws away his chances to get into a Hall of Fame or to have some nice celebration some day.

Also, I dread the inevitable Abyss vs Foley feud.

If anything, I would like to see him come into TNA, say they suck (then point at Nash, STing and other established guys) and they (TNA) have forgotten what they were about. And then he re-re-rekickstarts the pushes of the solid X-division guys.






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BigDaddyLoco
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.53
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    Whoa. Is this one of those adrenaline rush adrenaline rushes they talk about?

      Originally posted by Lexus
      The WWE did little to kill off the legend aura, considering more people watched what he did in his 'heyday' of the late 90's than in the last few years.


    Yeah, but most of those people don't watch anymore. Whereas most of the people watching now are also watching now. The people who watch now have seen a Mick Foley who was thrown in matches as an afterthought and never got promo time to talk about them, who teamed with Hornswoggle in TV matches against the Highlanders and Jonathan Coachman, who was thrown out of the Royal Rumble like a nobody, and whose appearances were treated about as meaningless as your average Roddy Piper cameo. Roddy Piper showing up in TNA (again) would not be a big deal. Not when Kurt Angle showing up in TNA was, in the long run, not even a big deal.




Yeah, it was that Royal Rumble that really made me realize that Foley had really dropped in the depth chart. I would have been a little more embarrassed for him if he wasn't collecting a nice check in the process.

To be somewhat fair to the WWE, Foley has just as much to do with Foley killing off the Legend Aura as anyone. He never seems to be happy with anything they have him do, which is how you wind up in non built up spots with Hornswaggle. Maybe I'm misinformed and someone else can clarify, but it seems like a lot of promising stuff they had him do always ended because the schedule was too much, or he didn't like where it was headed or he who knows what. Granted he was right a lot of the time, but how hard are you going to get behind a guy who only comes out a couple of weeks a year if he is never happy and always ends up taking his ball and going home?



(edited by BigDaddyLoco on 3.9.08 0536)
SEADAWG
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.21
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    The people who watch now have seen a Mick Foley who was thrown in matches as an afterthought and never got promo time to talk about them, who teamed with Hornswoggle in TV matches against the Highlanders and Jonathan Coachman, who was thrown out of the Royal Rumble like a nobody, and whose appearances were treated about as meaningless as your average Roddy Piper cameo.


This is a point where I feel it is noteworthy to mention that all of those events occurred with Foley having creative control over his WWE appearances. And don't get me started on the One Night Stand stuff that he based an entire book on. And don't EVEN get me started on Melina.

But these are, I feel, relevant details in light of the ongoing expressions of "OMG Foley's going to come to TNA and have control over his own stuff and it's going to RULE" coming from people who watch that promotion and it's television programming. Because, well, I just don't know.

I mean, I'm sure he'll cut some fine promos, but sometimes there's just not enough polish in the can to put a really nice shine on a turd.

    Originally posted by Excalibur05
    That's indicitive largely of the other problem with Foley's "legacy," in that since he wasn't a regular character, we all knew whenever he showed up, it was either to get punked out or jobbed, or do some wacky comedy routine. He never wanted to be a regular part of the show, never wanted to win a match, but he wanted to come back and put people over, so essentially, he became Barry Horowitz.


From a bigger picture kind of standpoint, I think his "legacy" has maybe been ever so slightly dinged by the fact that the "he wanted to come back and put people over" bit you mentioned kind of got a little transparent. Not to knock any of the fine work he did in the process, but there just got to be a sense of "look what I'm doing for the business" attached to it. Attached by Mick himself, since he'd take the occasional opportunity to point that out.

I certainly wouldn't say that's an opinion held by the majority -- it's probably an extreme minority. But there's just more of a sense of people thinking Mick likes to pat himself on the back than existed several years ago.

And in terms of going to TNA, I think going back to Triple H in 2000, Mick seems to have gotten a little fond of being able to say he "made" someone. He's said that about HHH a handful of times in recent years, which I've always thought was a little odd because I saw that feud as a two way street. It obviously was huge for Triple H in terms of being taken seriously as a top guy, but it was also huge for Mick getting to end his career in such a high profile way. He knew he was retiring, he knew he was kinda floundering as a comedy guy late in 1999 there, and that run with HHH gave him the opportunity to restore his credibility and go out on top. Win/win for everybody.

But Mick's comments about that situation have been in the "look what I did for him" vein, almost like it was a charitable act on his part. That's a little much. And if that UK Sun story from a while back is to be believed, now instead of the once-every-few-years "look what I did for him" WWE program with an up and coming guy, Mick wants to extend "look what I did for him" to an entire company.

Except he's really in no position to do that, both in terms of his own value and the state of TNA. And if that's really what he hopes to accomplish, I don't think there's going to be a terribly happy ending to this. I have this image of Mick eventually coming off like Flair in that PCW spot, which isn't what anyone wants to see.
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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.76
Uh, maybe he won't even wrestle? Or at least not very often? I would settle for him replacing Major West on color.




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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.40
I don't have any faith that TNA would subsequently push any midcarder he puts over.



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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.14
    Originally posted by SEADAWG
    This is a point where I feel it is noteworthy to mention that all of those events occurred with Foley having creative control over his WWE appearances. And don't get me started on the One Night Stand stuff that he based an entire book on. And don't EVEN get me started on Melina.


True. I think when Vince wouldn't let Terry Funk bite his ass (aka only the most perfect angle ever!), it broke Mick's spirit and from then on he was like "ok whatever" instead of devoting himself to his next great feud where he, one assumes, comes out of retirement and loses to Johnny Nitro clean in a hardcore match.


    But Mick's comments about that situation have been in the "look what I did for him" vein, almost like it was a charitable act on his part.


The passive-aggressive Foley/HHH bitchfest where Triple H claims Foley is a piece of crap who no longer connects with the audience and Foley shouts "I made this! I made this!" like a fingerpainting kindergartener has been hard on all of us for whom that feud represented such a high point in our lives.


    And if that UK Sun story from a while back is to be believed, now instead of the once-every-few-years "look what I did for him" WWE program with an up and coming guy, Mick wants to extend "look what I did for him" to an entire company.


He's going to get beaten up by TNA, get pissed, change into flannel, say "I still loves to MAKE WITH THE VIOLENCE! BANG BANG!", and lose to TNA clean in a hardcore match.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 3.9.08 1406)
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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.40
If this was the Foley of 10-15 years ago, this would be big. However, this is a guy who has floated back and forth from retirement for over 8 years. Maybe he is fortunate and he does what Piper did in '96 where he went from floundering in and out of the WWF and into a top angle in WCW. I just see him showing up in TNA, making a splash for a week or 2, getting bored and or not getting his way, and then going home to begin 3 months of X-Mas decorations.
Anyway that the Mania XIV C-4 match that Foley wanted against Funk could now happen?

(edited by redsoxnation on 3.9.08 2107)
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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.21
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    True. I think when Vince wouldn't let Terry Funk bite his ass (aka only the most perfect angle ever!)


DON'T GET ME STARTED. But I really meant more of the Hornswoggle type stuff... harming to his legend aura as it was, Mick had to have approved all that. And if Mick's radar for being smart with his appearances isn't quite on the level of Hogan or Austin or those guys, I don't know that Russo is the guy I'd want to be in control of such decisions.
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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.55
You know, prior to Russo's arrival, Rocky Maivia and the Ringmaster certainly weren't tearing anything up. His initiative to allow for a more colorful rendition of the word colorful than as applied to Randy Savage or Koko B. Ware due to the fact they wore a ton of vibrant colors.

Null point, if you hate the man's work you hate it, if not then not. Not every idea he's had was worth a million (although, to be fair, his WCW ideas certainly did cost millions, and I'll more than freely concede that). Another flaw in his ideal of a show is that the top draw needn't wrestle; a look back at the Attitude era shows that Austin, while prominent on every show, certainly didn't wrestle every show. Looking at TNA now, it's kind of blah that Samoa Joe and A.J. Styles are not in the ring while we're entreated to Nash/Angle. On the whole, however, I still prefer the TNA way of things now; it's far more electrifying than WWE (which I think is more stale than a bowl of week old cheese curls), although maybe grasping at straws at times. Whereas, the WWE will be more than willing to ride out any plan no matter how hard of an impact in the dirt it'll take them.

On that note, as a fan of absurd humor, I know TNA will bring the goods week in, week out, and I love the fact that I'm not sure if it's intentional or not. When the WWE gets weird, it's just a handful of stupid (see: Kane since the Katie Vick angle). Yeah, Black Reign and Rellik were really stupid ideas, but putting a rat in a bag and on a guy's head and hearing Tenay and West react like they're getting decapitated by a guillotine infected with AIDS? That's comedy.

And comparing 20 minutes of Taker/Festus to 3 minutes of Jay Lethal/Sonjay Dutt is like comparing colon cancer to the clap. One you're going to sit through and endure, no matter how painful and embarrassing, and one you'll clear up after some time and a bottle of medicine. Oh, and guess which one was more fun to get?



"Laugh and the world laughs with you. Frown and the world laughs at you."
-Me.
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Offhand, I'd tend to doubt it, since Punk is in Japan at the moment and won't be on TNA tonight. Joe
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