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The W - Current Events & Politics - Florida student tasered at Kerry event (Page 2)
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wmatistic
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Since: 2.2.04
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    So I'm ignorant of the law apparently. What is the right to remove someone?

    Do police have the authority to physically move anyone at any time, whether or not they are under arrest?

    Doesn't the consitution provide people with protections for the right to assembly and free speech, up to the point of being arrested? If you haven't committed a crime, at what point do you lose constitutional protection in a public place?


Well just guessing, but from his mic being cut off and people constantly telling him to get to his question, I would say whoever was running the show(not the police) said hey this is our event, get that guy outta here. Which they have every right to do. It wasn't just a public place it was an organized event. He had every right to go outside and make a fool of himself there.

The police asked him to leave, he started going apeshit instead of being civil and it went downhill from there.
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Since: 9.12.01
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.81
The event was at a publicly funded university. Here are the details of the event from the UFL paper.

Sen. John Kerry to speak at UF forum Sept. 17
Filed under Top Stories, Announcements on September 6, 2007.
    Originally posted by http://insideuf.ufl.edu/2007/09/06/kerry-forum/

    GAINESVILLE, Fla. Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., will speak at a town hall forum at the University of Florida on Sept. 17, sponsored by the ACCENT Speakers Bureau.

    The forum will be held at noon in University Auditorium. Doors will open at 11 a.m. for advance ticket holders, who will be seated first. Any open seats will then be made available to those without tickets. Regular parking restrictions will remain in effect for this event.

    Advance tickets will become available to students and the general public, starting Monday at the Phillips Center for Performing Arts and at the University Box Office. Tickets are free and will be issued on a first come, first serve basis. Only one ticket per person will be issued.

    The structure of the forum will include remarks by Kerry followed by a moderated discussion with the senator about current affairs and policy.

    Kerry has served as a senator from Massachusetts for 22 years and is currently the chairman of the Senate Small Business Committee. He has served for 19 years on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and is a senior member of the Finance and Commerce committees. In addition, Kerry is an advocate of increasing national security, fighting global terrorism, and preventing the spread of weapons of mass destruction.
    Kerry was the Democratic presidential nominee in the 2004 election.

    For more information, call ACCENT at 352-392-1665, ext. 306, or the information line at ext. 411, or e-mail ACCENT at accent@sg.ufl.edu.


Here's an interesting and relevant portion of the Use of Force policy for the University of Florida police department

    Originally posted by http://www.president.ufl.edu/incident/UFPD-use-of-force-policy.pdf
    1. Resistance. Resistance is manifested by a subject who attempts to evade an officer's attempts at control. Resistance
    is action directed at the officer by the subject. The amount and type of resistance will vary based on the actions of the
    subject. Resistance can be categorized into three broad areas:
    a. Verbal resistance is exemplified by a refusal to comply with lawful orders of arrest or commands, verbal threats
    or assaults;
    b. Physical resistance is exemplified by physical attempts to resist or elude control by the officer;
    c. Aggressive action is exemplified by a physical assault against an officer that could lead to severe physical injury.
    2. Control. Control is the physical action an officer employs to overcome resistance, aggressive/combative behavior or
    actual or attempted flight while effecting a lawful arrest. The response to resistance will be based on the officer's
    perception of the level of resistance and ability to overcome the resistance and gain control of the subject.
    Generally, there are four occasions in which an officer is justified in using physical control methods:
    a. To stop potentially dangerous and unlawful behavior;
    4000-3
    b. To protect the officer or another from injury;
    c. To complete the process or effecting a lawful arrest when the subject offers a degree of resistance;
    d. To protect subjects from injuring themselves



I'm fairly certain that ACCENT does not have the power to legally detain people. ACCENT should not be able to tell the local campus police to arrest someone at their event.

I'm not certain that he can be accused of trespassing at a public forum with open access, at a public instituation.

I have many questions about this.









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Since: 18.3.02
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.87

OK...so not to be confrontational, but if I'm in a "public" place, at an "open to the public" event, I should be able to make an ass of myself and be disruptive without any expectation of consequences?

From my understanding, there was a time limit at the mic. Since he didn't broach his question (or seemingly wait for an answer to the ones he did ask) within that time limit, his mic was cut, and he was asked to step away.

He refused. At that point, he has become a nuisance and could be reasonably accused of "disorderly conduct".

The big question is what did the police do, or not do (or say), when they started physically removing him. His struggling afterwards is what caused him to get zapped.

You can take a look at the other "stunts" he's pulled and make a reasonable assumption that he was not there to further discussion. He was there for attention...and he got it in a big way.

I can understand being puzzled why you're being removed. I can understand why you would question "What did I do?". What I don't understand is this. When police are physically removing you, getting visibly agitated in the process...what makes you think to yourself? "You know what would help here? I should struggle and fight them. I'm sure they'll see my point and let me go."
Leroy
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.15
    Originally posted by cranlsn
    OK...so not to be confrontational, but if I'm in a "public" place, at an "open to the public" event, I should be able to make an ass of myself and be disruptive without any expectation of consequences?


That is the risk you take when hosting a public event with an open microphone Q&A. I have to attend these kinds of events at least four times a year, and I HATE them - even if I like the speaker. It doesn't matter the politically leanings of the event, you inevitably get someone who acts like an asshole and hogs the mic.

That's why you always have two microphones - so you can cut someone off and move on.

    Originally posted by cranlsn
    I can understand being puzzled why you're being removed. I can understand why you would question "What did I do?". What I don't understand is this. When police are physically removing you, getting visibly agitated in the process...what makes you think to yourself? "You know what would help here? I should struggle and fight them. I'm sure they'll see my point and let me go."


His point was to be a disruptive jerk, and the police played right into his hands PERFECTLY. Regardless of whether he deserved the tazing or not - the police should have removed him from the building with as little commotion as possible, and then gone from there.

Bouncers do this all of the time. Maybe they need to watch Roadhouse?








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Since: 3.5.03
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.90
There are some other videos on YouTube that captured what happened here, some with clearer footage than the video Cerebus posted and some, like this one, with more footage. After watching this video a couple of things became crystal clear to me. One, this kid is an absolute douchebag. An attention-whoring douchebag. I am NEVER one to stick up for the man or the police or whatever, but man this kid is annoying. Whether what the police did was right or not, I laugh at his momentary pain.

Two, once they pulled the kid from the room they in fact told him what he was under arrest for: inciting a riot. I guess it's good that they told him why he was being arrested, but I'm not so sure how valid a reason that is. Was there REALLY any danger of a riot breaking out prior to the point where they tasered him? Maybe that's their judgment call to make, I dunno.

All in all, I find this far, far, FAR less offensive than the incident in the library at UCLA last year. The UF officers here only tasered him once, he was struggling and cursing and refusing to let himself be handcuffed, and they gave him warning that he would be tasered if he didn't cooperate.

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AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.54
The usual thing is that the "sponsors" of the event have rented the space, even if the rent is rent free. The event I was talking about with Harvey Milk was at Lombard and Van Ness - and thousands were there. And our watch commanded emphasised that we were to and had the right to, remove anyone designated by Milk's Chief of Staff - it had to come from him, because he had the permit. They were not to be arrested unless they resisted. And I led a couple guys away that day who had shirts with certain statements on them that I was directed to remove. They went, nicely enough.

Speech is free, Assembly is free - just not when your speech or your assembly infringes on the rights of others. Maybe some people wanted to hear what Hanoi Jane's little boyfriend was saying.
(you see, that's free speech - but of course, I am doing it on someone else's property and on their dime - so, I might be edited, banned, suspended - you know the drill..)

Guru, they probably said something to him like "sir, you have said enough and it's time to leave" - it's kind of like a friendly warning. When he doesn't obey that, he is disturbing the peace and can be taken into custody. It's not required that be charged, just because he is taken into custody.

At least, that's what I recall from the dark ages when everybody wasn't an internet lawyer. We only had sh*thouse lawyers then.

(edited by AWArulz on 20.9.07 1903)


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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.15
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    The usual thing is that the "sponsors" of the event have rented the space, even if the rent is rent free. The event I was talking about with Harvey Milk was at Lombard and Van Ness - and thousands were there. And our watch commanded emphasised that we were to and had the right to, remove anyone designated by Milk's Chief of Staff - it had to come from him, because he had the permit. They were not to be arrested unless they resisted.


But wasn't part of your job to remove someone with as little attention drawn to the situation as possible? Wouldn't you do your best to get them away from the event before taking them into custody?

I think this is less about the tazering of a douchebag and more about the officers' role in the detainment. Their "technique" really seemed to exacerbate the situation, not calm it down. And there seemed to be plenty of opportunity to get him outside without making such a scene.




(edited by Leroy on 20.9.07 1626)



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wmatistic
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Since: 2.2.04
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
    Originally posted by Leroy
      Originally posted by AWArulz
      The usual thing is that the "sponsors" of the event have rented the space, even if the rent is rent free. The event I was talking about with Harvey Milk was at Lombard and Van Ness - and thousands were there. And our watch commanded emphasised that we were to and had the right to, remove anyone designated by Milk's Chief of Staff - it had to come from him, because he had the permit. They were not to be arrested unless they resisted.


    But wasn't part of your job to remove someone with as little attention drawn to the situation as possible? Wouldn't you do your best to get them away from the event before taking them into custody?

    I think this is less about the tazering of a douchebag and more about the officers' role in the detainment. Their "technique" really seemed to exacerbate the situation, not calm it down. And there seemed to be plenty of opportunity to get him outside without making such a scene.




    (edited by Leroy on 20.9.07 1626)


Really? Did you not see him almost immediately jumping away from them, flailing his arms from the moment they touched him? It was clear they were just grabbing his arm to lead him away. He created the "scene" and escalated the situation.
Leroy
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Since: 7.2.02

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.15
    Originally posted by wmatistic
    Really? Did you not see him almost immediately jumping away from them, flailing his arms from the moment they touched him? It was clear they were just grabbing his arm to lead him away. He created the "scene" and escalated the situation.


I'm fairly certain we wouldn't even be discussing this if they had simply removed him from the building.

(edited by Leroy on 20.9.07 1825)



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Since: 21.2.02
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.88
AWA: Guru, they probably said something to him like "sir, you have said enough and it's time to leave" - it's kind of like a friendly warning. When he doesn't obey that, he is disturbing the peace and can be taken into custody. It's not required that be charged, just because he is taken into custody.

At least, that's what I recall from the dark ages when everybody wasn't an internet lawyer. We only had sh*thouse lawyers then.


Right on.

GURU, I know your point on this, but the last paragraph above speaks volumes. When people can get their rocks off by making asses of the police on You Tube, it's only going to make matters worse. A "police state" is going to suck, but we've got it coming

Regardless of what I think of this asshole, he was told to stop and opted for his 15 minutes of fame. More and more people will do that, given the nationwide accessibility of the WWW, and that's that.

The officers getting maimed and killed here on a weekly basis, near Disney no less, has enforced my views on things; feeling it only a matter of time before a cop is pissed and shit on, beaten and snuffed, on video, for the thrill of doing it and then showing it to myspace. Serious retaliation will be the only answer...and militant behavior as a response will get you laughed out of court, if you even make it that far

That being said, copycat protesters, at events that matter, will be nice to see

FLEA



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AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.54
    Originally posted by Leroy
    I'm fairly certain we wouldn't even be discussing this if they had simply removed him from the building.


I'm fairly certain if he had actually left when the officers said "that's enough, sir" or whatever they said when they walked up to him, we wouldn't be, but he preferred to be the center of attention, as shown by that other event mentioned here.



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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.15
    Originally posted by Awarulz
    I'm fairly certain if he had actually left when the officers said "that's enough, sir" or whatever they said when they walked up to him, we wouldn't be, but he preferred to be the center of attention, as shown by that other event mentioned here.


Which brings up my original question to you... isn't part of working this kind of gig to remove troublemakers as inconspicuously as possible?

(edited by Leroy on 20.9.07 1941)


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Since: 3.5.03
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.90
    Originally posted by Leroy
      Originally posted by Awarulz
      I'm fairly certain if he had actually left when the officers said "that's enough, sir" or whatever they said when they walked up to him, we wouldn't be, but he preferred to be the center of attention, as shown by that other event mentioned here.


    Which brings up my original question to you... isn't part of working this kind of gig to remove troublemakers as inconspicuously as possible?

    (edited by Leroy on 20.9.07 1941)

I think you are underestimating the officers' attempts to do just that (and Meyer's subsequent escalation of the incident). If you watch some of the clearer, lengthier videos on YouTube you can see him talking back to the officers when they ask him to leave and also IMMEDIATELY getting physical and confrontational when they try to quietly escort him out of the building. It's not 100% clear from what I've seen, but at some point while he was being essentially carried out of the building I think he either planted himself on the ground or did something else to make it hard for the officers to finish escorting him out inconspicuously. I imagine that's why he ended up on the ground.

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Since: 28.1.02
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.61
    Originally posted by Leroy
    Which brings up my original question to you... isn't part of working this kind of gig to remove troublemakers as inconspicuously as possible?


Of course it is, but when the douchebag fights you right away, what choice do you have? And clearly, this dork is showing his ass as soon as, and actually before the cops got to him.





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Since: 2.1.02
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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
So you're saying that six cops couldn't find a way to restrain one skinny kid and remove him from the building? What the fuck kinda training are they giving these people nowadays?

That's the issue here. The guy's clearly not a danger to others, and police are supposed to be trained to handle people like this without resorting to weapons. Apply a little pressure here, slap the cuff son him there, and you're done. What the Hell did they used to do before tasering became the asnwer to every conundrum a cop faces?



To those who say people wouldn't look; they wouldn't be interested; they're too complacent, indifferent and insulated, I can only reply: There is, in one reporter's opinion, considerable evidence against that contention. But even if they are right, what have they got to lose? Because if they are right, and this instrument is good for nothing but to entertain, amuse and insulate, then the tube is flickering now and we will soon see that the whole struggle is lost. This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires, and lights, in a box.-Edward R. Murrow
AWArulz
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.56
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    What the Hell did they used to do before tasering became the asnwer to every conundrum a cop faces?


You took your baton, held in your hand with about three inches sticking out and your drove it like a knife into their kidneys. Slowed down most people pretty well. Plus they pissed blood for a week, which I always saw as a plus. Most police officers don't even carry batons anymore, so they have Tasers and Pepperspray as their non-lethal force.

A guy is flailing around like the one in the video we have all seen up to now, we take down, get their attention and slap the cuffs on. You should know that it is VERY difficult to get the hands in position to place cuffs on a person from behind if their don't want you to. It's much easier to break their arms, which we actually did once to a PCP dude who was flailing much like their guy does in the video. Except we didn't have tasers, pepperspray or even mace (I liked Mace, it was very nice to use). So I sticked the guy - several times and finally got him down on his face, but he fought the cuffs. We got one wrist in, but in the process of getting the other wrist in place, he suddenly jerked the one we did have cuffed and his arm broke with an audible snap about 1/3 of the way up.

That did get his attention, we cuffed him and transported him to the hospital, which is where we were going anyway.

and remember, originally, there were two cops - and old guy and a woman.



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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
I think the baton's a better option, actually - a sharp shot to a kneecap or the kidneys might hurt like a motherfucker, but it's probably got less chance of killing someone than the taser.

Regardless of this incident - which is admittedly a grey area - taser usage has become an over-reliance of the police force. It's not the answer to every situation just because it's designated as non-lethal. Case in point.



To those who say people wouldn't look; they wouldn't be interested; they're too complacent, indifferent and insulated, I can only reply: There is, in one reporter's opinion, considerable evidence against that contention. But even if they are right, what have they got to lose? Because if they are right, and this instrument is good for nothing but to entertain, amuse and insulate, then the tube is flickering now and we will soon see that the whole struggle is lost. This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires, and lights, in a box.-Edward R. Murrow
AWArulz
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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.56
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Regardless of this incident - which is admittedly a grey area - taser usage has become an over-reliance of the police force. It's not the answer to every situation just because it's designated as non-lethal.


I agree with you. I only used my Baton, oh, 20 or so times in 5 years on the job, including a year on bar fight patrol in the Military Police. Strength, tact and intimidation normally work better than the Baton. Plus the fact that I am 6'5" and at the time was an in-shape 245 lbs.

by the way - back of the knee. It is unbelievably painful. Or on the knuckles. Ouch.

(edited by AWArulz on 23.9.07 1328)


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