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The W - Current Events & Politics - Flag Amendment Coming Soon (Page 2)
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too-old-now
Bockwurst








Since: 7.1.04

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.09
And of course, the appropriate thing to do to a worn, tattered and weathered flag is to burn it.

As long as we're talking about ludicrous issues, how about adding an amendment dealing with American Flags being manufactured in Thailand, Singapore, China etc to be sold in the good ol' USA.

Sure, Walmart doesn't care about US manufacturing jobs, they're only concerned about the 3 cents a thousand boxes they're saving.
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.84
    Originally posted by vsp
    As long as they have no problem with going to jail for escalating "voicing displeasure" into physical assault, fine by me.

    I'm not entitled to kick your ass for waving your flag; you're not entitled to kick mine for treating mine differently. If I'm trying to burn _your_ flag (as in "personal property"), that's another story.


I would have no problem with being charged with something like assault for kicking the ass of a flag burner.

I mean, I support out legal system and Constitution. If our legal system decided I would have to go to jail or pay a fine for kicking the ever living shit out of somebody I feel was being disrespectful to my country, IN my country, then I would gladly take whatever punishment was handed out.

spf
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.57
    Originally posted by ges7184
    My point was that in a time where, at least in my opinion, most politicians view their number one job as getting re-elected, and thus spend a good portion of their time pandering for votes, I just don't see two-thirds of a group of politicians voting for an amendment that is unpopular among the voters (with less than 37% support according to the poll). So it would seem to me, at least, that the politicians must have some sort of indications that the amendment has wider support than the poll indicates (ie feel that this will help them get re-elected). So either the poll is inaccurate, or the politicians (who probably have their own polls) have miscalculated.

    (Just to use your example, if an amendment actually passed about the DH-rule in baseball, I think it would be indicative that at least those who voted for it at least thought that this amendment would be popular among the voters. That wouldn't make it any less stupid.)



It's a perfect issue though for the GOP to give to their base. It will allow them to hammer at those who vote against it as "un-american" and make them fight that point instead of arguing on ground of the Dems choosing. It ties in nicely with the GOP spin that Dems are more hostile to America and American values. And it will be great for them in the Southeast and Plains states, which is the core of GOP support nationally.



Tenken347
Boudin blanc








Since: 27.2.03
From: Parts Unknown

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.06
A couple other people have alredy mentioned this, but I would be way more in favor of an amendment requiring flag owners to to properly care for their flags. Over the years it has really started to get to me when I see a flag flying in the rain or touching the ground.
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
    Originally posted by StaggerLee

      A poll released last week by the Freedom Forum First Amendment Center in Nashville found 63% oppose a flag amendment, up from 53% last year.


    Anybody stop to think that a survey conducted by some place called the FREEDOM FORUM FIRST AMMENDMENT CENTER, might lean a bit to the "let them burn it" side of the fence?


    As far as Flag burning goes, while I don't agree with it, or for what I personally believe it stands for, I do think that the constitution protects 'speech'. Let them burn it if they so wish. But, dont be suprised if some person who feels it IS unpatriotic to burn a flag kicks the flag burner in the ass. After all, he is only voicing his displeasure with what the flag burner stands for.



Don't you yhink that lends them some credibility though?

I'm fairly involved in the Freedom Forum; it was founded by Al Neuharth (USA Today founder) and I won a journalism scholarship from them coming out of high school. Now, I correspond with them regularly, and have had some of my writing put in books they've printed regarding the future of the first ammendment. Also, in their Newseum (a museum dedicated to the coverage of news), two issues of my daily college newspaper that I was editor of were put up in their "College Newspaper" exhibit. I've thought every step of the way that my involvement with them has made me smarter and more aware of the direction our country is heading. They've never tried to pursuay me politically at all, it's more like "Over the last 50 years, the American people have seen this right, that right and this other right lost." However, it is equal parts concern over losing rights and celebration of the rights we have.

Don't you think a group of people who exist solely to study and promote the First Amendment might know a thing or two about the First Amendment? I take it from your comment that you think the name implies some sort of bias, but I can't imagine what. Unless, of course, you think the supporters of this amendment are all against either "freedim," "forums" or the "First Amendment."

EDIT: I'd also like to point out, Mr. Patriot, that while the flag burner is not breaking a law, you, the hypothetical (and stereotypical) ass-kicker, are. We're really all impressed by how macho and tough and "American" you are. At the risk of repeating what I'm sure others have pointed out, "Kicking the ass" of a flag-burner because you disagree with him is pretty much the opposite of what this country was founded on, as so many anti-flag-burners claim the flag represents. Dare I say, the flag burner is more American than you in this hypothetical situation?

(edited by TheBucsFan on 16.6.05 1317)
StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.84
Knowing nothing of the Freedom Forum, when I read "first ammendment center" I would assume that they would be for ANY and ALL forms of "expression". Am I wrong in that assumption? If so, I appologise.

Thank you for pointing out that I would be breaking the law for kicking the shit out of a person I saw burning a flag. I always find it amusing how people who "express" themselves by doing something derrogatory to my country will be the first to piss and moan about "freedom of speech" which is, ironically provided to them by the country they intend to insult/bash. Yes, you are free to burn a flag. I am free to take action to protect what I see as a symbol of my nation. Be it kick somebody's ass, or put the flames out, or what have you. The difference is, I would be willing to accept whatever consequences would come from my actions.


    January 7, 2003 and February 12, 2003]
    [CITE: 4USC8]
    TITLE 4--FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES
    CHAPTER 1--THE FLAG

    Sec. 8. Respect for flag

    No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America;


While the law doesnt state that burning is expressly prohibited, I would venture a guess that the majority of people would think that burning a flag would be disrespectful, regardless of the reasoning (or 'speech' if you like) behind it.
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Yes, you are free to burn a flag. I am free to take action to protect what I see as a symbol of my nation. Be it kick somebody's ass, or put the flames out, or what have you. The difference is, I would be willing to accept whatever consequences would come from my actions.
    ...
    While the law doesnt state that burning is expressly prohibited, I would venture a guess that the majority of people would think that burning a flag would be disrespectful, regardless of the reasoning (or 'speech' if you like) behind it.


And they're entitled to think that. But being disrespectful, in and of itself, is generally within the law, no? People have a right to be assholes as long as they're not causing direct harm to other people or are otherwise violating the law.

Now, flag-burning may be protected speech according to the courts, but there _are_ local ordinances in most places covering open flame in general. If someone burns a flag as part of a protest and is told that burning ANYTHING in that place is against the law, they too should accept the consequences of their actions. That kind of restriction is much more acceptable than one that would ban specific forms of expression.

Besides, Kane's already got the "run in and kick ass to prevent the flag from being burned" thing down. You wouldn't want to be guilty of gimmick infringement.

(edited by vsp on 16.6.05 1352)

Vanilla Ice on stardom: "I had a weekend that lasted a couple of years."
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.84
    Originally posted by vsp
      But being disrespectful, in and of itself, is generally within the law, no?


    Unless the disrespect is directed at a US Flag, then it is not.

    I am all for being able to say anything a person wants about his/her nation. However, it's the desecration of the flag that I have a problem with, and NOT the message behind it. Say you hate the country, say its screwed up from top to bottom, say the President is a douchebag, but, to me, the burning of the flag is something alltogether different than "speech".

    (edited by StaggerLee on 16.6.05 1255)
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Yes, you are free to burn a flag. I am free to take action to protect what I see as a symbol of my nation.


If, in the second sentence, by "free" you mean "punishable by law," than yes, you are absolutely and completely "free".

    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Be it kick somebody's ass, or put the flames out, or what have you. The difference is, I would be willing to accept whatever consequences would come from my actions.


So being willing to accept consequences justifies your actions? If the flag burner whose ass your kicking pulls out a gun and shoots you, then screams "TAKE ME TO JAIL MOTHERFUCKERS GOD BLESS AMERICA," is he some sort of super-dooper, uber-American?
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.84
I am quite sure that if I were to go to court and a judge asked "why did you hit Mr Jones when he was burning the flag?"
and my response was "I was protecting the flag, and trying to stop it from being disrespected, as required by US CODE." I would walk out of court a free man.

Being willing to accept the consequences does NOT justify my actions. Accepting the consequences means that to me personally, its the right thing to do, and I would do it no matter what may happen. You know, standing up for something you feel is RIGHT. Something you feel is JUST. Expressing your disgust at somebody destroying a symbol of my nation.


Leroy
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Since: 7.2.02

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.23
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    I always find it amusing how people who "express" themselves by doing something derrogatory to my country will be the first to piss and moan about "freedom of speech" which is, ironically provided to them by the country they intend to insult/bash.


Maybe that's because the freedoms themselves are far more important than the symbol that represents those freedoms. Allowing flag burning isn't endorsing the desecration of an American symbol, but it is acknowledging that the freedoms themselves are far more important than the symbols.

You can't say,"We're a great country because freedom of speech is protected by law", and then turn around a make laws that limit the very freedoms you claim exist.

    Originally posted by StaggerLee

    I am quite sure that if I were to go to court and a judge asked "why did you hit Mr Jones when he was burning the flag?" and my response was "I was protecting the flag, and trying to stop it from being disrespected, as required by US CODE." I would walk out of court a free man.


Maybe, but you'd definitely lose the civil suit.



(edited by Leroy on 16.6.05 1108)



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JayJayDean
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.33
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    I am quite sure that if I were to go to court and a judge asked "why did you hit Mr Jones when he was burning the flag?"
    and my response was "I was protecting the flag, and trying to stop it from being disrespected, as required by US CODE." I would walk out of court a free man.


If I were That Flag Burner's attorney (or I guess in this case, the prosecutor), I would argue that that is YOUR interpretation of "disrespect", and that, in turn, TFB chose to burn a US flag because it is the highest embodiement of "U-S-A" that exists, and TFB was showing it the ultimate respect by burning it to show his disgust with whatever-was-bothering-him-that-prompted-him-to-burn-it in the first place.

It's all semantics and how you spin it.



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vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Say you hate the country, say its screwed up from top to bottom, say the President is a douchebag, but, to me, the burning of the flag is something alltogether different than "speech".


The courts have found otherwise on several occasions, but you knew that.

Look, you feel strongly about the flag and you're strongly against desecration of the flag. I got that much. You're entitled to that opinion, and if YOU don't want to burn a flag EVER (except as part of an officially-sanctioned flag retirement ceremony), no one says that you'll ever have to do so.

I'm against the criminalization of the action, and _I_ can't ever imagine that it's something I'd ever want to do. It's a powerful symbol, but there are a lot of other ways of getting one's point across.

What I'm trying to grasp, and failing, is why you apparently consider violence to be the first and appropriate reaction when confronted by a flag-burner. If the guy's on your property and climbing your flagpole to get at your flag, then yeah, kick his ass. If he seizes a flag out of your hands and sets it on fire, you have the right to defend yourself. But why is it that you feel you have the right to your own beliefs, but if someone else feels differently about the flag and what it stands for and acts accordingly, your beliefs trump his and violent action is justifiable in your own mind?

If I'm burning a flag, call me an asshole, flip me the finger, denigrate my ancestry, write a vicious letter about me to the local paper, rant about me on an Internet message board, or gather like-minded individuals and drown out my message with your own. Why is swinging a boot a better option than those?

Expression of disgust can take many forms. Flag-burning is one of them.

(edited by vsp on 16.6.05 1411)


Vanilla Ice on stardom: "I had a weekend that lasted a couple of years."
StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.02
Good questions vsp. I believe, and maybe I am in the vast minority here, that things like our Flag, our President, our elected officials, etc are something that should be upheld in the highest respect. Even when I dont agree with elected officials, I respect thier office.

For flags, to me, it is the one universally recognized symbol of our nation. More than anything else. It identifies who we are and our history. That history for me, personally includes 9 generations of military service, in 6 different conflicts/wars. To me, it is like spitting in the face of my family who served, and every other person who made any sacrifice in his/her nation's name. I've help fold one of those flags after removing it from a shipmates coffin. To me, it is more than a few sqare feet of cloth.

To me, seeing a flag burned out of hate or disrespect, invokes more emotion than saying "Hey, you're an asshole for doing that". I would personally, and this is just my OWN personal opinion, feel I was allowing people who came before me and sacrificed everything for this nation, to have thier memories shit all over by allowing a flag to be burned in protest.

Perhaps they wouldnt agree with me, and would be of the opinion that they gave thier heart, soul and lives to preserve the 'right' to burn it.

But, I wouldnt be able to live with myself if I saw it happening and did nothing to stop it.
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
See, _those_ beliefs I have no problem with.

I just have a knee-jerk aversion to violence except when absolutely necessary. If I'm burning a flag and am completely wrong in your eyes, don't kick my ass for being wrong -- _show me_ why I'm wrong. Convince me that I'm wrong, or at least wrong to do it in public or in that particular place. Make me rethink what I'm doing or why I'm doing it. THAT is a lot more constructive in the long run than going in boot-first.

Kicking my ass doesn't change my mind; it reinforces it. "That guy's a fascist and a brute and he took my flag away. SEE? That's what I'm on about! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!"



Vanilla Ice on stardom: "I had a weekend that lasted a couple of years."
BigSteve
Pepperoni








Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.76
    Originally posted by Leroy
    You can't say,"We're a great country because freedom of speech is protected by law", and then turn around a make laws that limit the very freedoms you claim exist.


Sure you can. We do it all of the time. Freedom of speech is not an absolute right as it does not cover libel, slander, obscenity, etc. Most other freedoms our limited in some way, as well.

    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    If we're going to have an amendment against burning the flag, can it include clauses dealing with those douchebags who felt a jolt of patriotic pride after 9/11 and were compelled to put the flag out in front of their house and HAVEN'T TOUCHED IT SINCE, leaving it to fray and fade and look like crap? Personally, THAT guy offends me a lot more with his not caring than someone trying to make a political statement by burning a flag.


I don't get it. If you think that abusing the flag is wrong, why is it more wrong to do it out of negligence than on purpose?

    Originally posted by vsp

      Burning the flag is clearly unpatriotic
    To YOU. According to YOUR perspective as to what the flag stands for and what the country stands for


Explain to me how that isn't unpatriotic. The only way that I've ever seen the flag burned is in the context of "I dislike this country and everything for which it stands." I know you don't want that to be illegal, but that *is* most assuredly unpatriotic.


    Seriously. Is _anything_ so sacred that it should be placed by law above mockery, criticism and/or ironic commentary?


Yes. The very symbol that allows people to mock, criticize, and partake in ironic commentary. Ironic, isn't it?


    Is there a pressing national need for this amendment?


I have no idea. While I would support such an amendment, it certainly isn't my reason for being. I won't go to bed at night in fear that flags will be burned. But if this were to become an amendment, then because of that it must be important. Unimportant things are extremely, extremely unlikely to go through the entire ratification process.


    Will the next amendment be to prohibit the flag's use on T-shirts, golf club covers, magnetic ribbons and cocktail napkins, because it's demeaning to Our National Symbol for someone to wipe his hands on an Old Glory napkin?


That's ridiculous, mainly because those things *are not* the flag. Even then, you'd have to be a real wacko to think that wiping you're hands on a napkin with the American flag on it is disrespectful to America (Of course, you may already think that *I'm* one of those wackos :-( )

spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.57
    Originally posted by BigSteve
    I have no idea. While I would support such an amendment, it certainly isn't my reason for being. I won't go to bed at night in fear that flags will be burned. But if this were to become an amendment, then because of that it must be important. Unimportant things are extremely, extremely unlikely to go through the entire ratification process.

I would say that's precisely why it will go through. Things like this score easy political points without having to risk taking a stand on anything that requires effort and would really impact people. Or am I adding up time wrong when I guess that Congress has spent much more time this year on Terri Schiavo, a handful of judges, steroid hearings, and flag amendments than on Bush's Social Security plan or any real discussion about a timetable for getting out of Iraq (though admittedly that does seem to be in the pipeline)?

    Originally posted by BigSteve
    That's ridiculous, mainly because those things *are not* the flag. Even then, you'd have to be a real wacko to think that wiping you're hands on a napkin with the American flag on it is disrespectful to America

If this sacred symbol that is inspiring people on this board to violence in order to protect it and that people feel is worth amending our Constitution for is only sacred when printed on certain materials and displayed in a certain way, then I think you kind of undercut your own argument. Is there a minimum size it has to be for you to feel it needs constitutional protection? Certain types of materials that make it up? A certain production process? Seriously, I don't understand why, if this is such an important symbol to people, why me setting one on fire in the act of political protest offends you to the point of rage, but hocking up a loogie in it's depiction on a napkin leaves you benign.


    Originally posted by BigSteve
    (Of course, you may already think that *I'm* one of those wackos :-( )


You said it, not me ;)

(edited by spf on 16.6.05 1413)


Mr. Boffo
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Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
    Originally posted by BigSteve
    That's ridiculous, mainly because those things *are not* the flag. Even then, you'd have to be a real wacko to think that wiping you're hands on a napkin with the American flag on it is disrespectful to America (Of course, you may already think that *I'm* one of those wackos :-( )


May not fit, but I'm reminded of the trouble that came about for McDonalds during the Olympics one time (maybe 1992) because they put the flag of Saudi Arabia (among other countries) on their bags. The problem? The flag of Saudi Arabia contains the Muslim profession of faith on it ("There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Prophet"), which is out of the Koran. Muslim law prohibits putting words from the Koran on items that will be thrown away.

Or if that's off the topic, how about this: Would it be ok to burn something that had the flag on it, like the guy's shirt in "Forrest Gump"?



NOTE: The above post makes no sense. We apologize for the inconvenience.
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by BigSteve
    Explain to me how that isn't unpatriotic. The only way that I've ever seen the flag burned is in the context of "I dislike this country and everything for which it stands." I know you don't want that to be illegal, but that *is* most assuredly unpatriotic.


What if it's a statement of "I dislike the people CURRENTLY running this country and what THEY stand for," rather than hatred of the country as a whole?

What if it's part of some artist's project?

Is mockery or deliberate alteration just as bad as direct defacement? For instance, is this unpatriotic?

    Originally posted by BigSteve


      Seriously. Is _anything_ so sacred that it should be placed by law above mockery, criticism and/or ironic commentary?


    Yes. The very symbol that allows people to mock, criticize, and partake in ironic commentary. Ironic, isn't it?


We're not free to mock the symbol of our freedom to mock?

It's ironic to the point where I think my brain just melted.




Vanilla Ice on stardom: "I had a weekend that lasted a couple of years."
EddieBurkett
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Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.87
Here (ushistory.org) are some nice rules about how to care for a flag. Note that they specifically mention that flag napkins and plates are violations.

    Originally posted by BigSteve
    I don't get it. If you think that abusing the flag is wrong, why is it more wrong to do it out of negligence than on purpose?


I can't speak for JayJayDean, but it comes off as hypocritical to go so far to announce your support for the country by flying the flag, and then to not do your due diligance in taking care of it. The way people refer to the flag as a symbol of this nation, its almost like a living breathing thing. Not taking care of a flag like that is like talking about how much you love your dog while he's starving and flea infested and you refuse to do anything about him. It rings more of jingoism than it does true patriotism.



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