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The W - Current Events & Politics - FISA Bill Passes the Senate
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BigDaddyLoco
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Since: 2.1.02

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.82
Well, those rotten snakes in the Senate folded and gave into Bush's bill to give him his wire tapping rights, but more importantly the bill gives immunity to the Telecoms for illegal wire tapping for the past however many years.

For what it's worth the 28 Senators that showed they still had a set until the very end and were beaten like a gong anyways ...


    Akaka - Biden - Bingaman - Boxer - Brown - Byrd - Cantwell - Cardin - Clinton - Dodd - Dorgan - Durbin - Feingold - Harkin - Kerry - Klobachur - Lautenberg - Leahy - Levin - Menendez - Murray - Reed - Reid - Sanders - Schumer - Stabenow - Tester - Wyden.



It's a sad day.



(edited by BigDaddyLoco on 10.7.08 1028)
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OlFuzzyBastard
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Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.05
The saddest part about this whole thing, to me at least, is that this guy

<-------

wasn't on that list. I voted for him because he was supposed to have the guts to stand up for stuff like this, and it extremely disheartens me to see him already crumbling under fear of McCain playing the "soft on terror" card this fall.
Texas Kelly
Lap cheong








Since: 3.1.02
From: FOREST HILLS CONTROLS THE UNIVERSE

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.83
Ladies and gentlemen, the following public service message is brought to you by your friends from D-Generation X, who would like to remind each and every one of you that if you're not down with that, we've got two words for you...

Eh, immunity for telecoms pales in comparison to the evil that could potentially be foistered upon us by the G8 any day now (wikileaks.org). Besides, if Anthony Kennedy is worth his salt he'll vote with the good guys to strike it down on the obvious constitutional grounds when this inevitably is placed before the Supremes.

As far as Barack is concerned - let's face it, he had to vote yes or the evil ones would have had a point of contention to push him on with the idiots in Middle America this fall. Obama actually looks better for voting than McCain (who took a powder on the issue) does.



e-mail me at texas (dot) kelly (at) gmailread a bunch of incoherent nonsense
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smark/net attack Advisory System is Elevatedsmark/net attack Advisory System Status is: Elevated
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While the switch from Cena to RVD should alleviate some complaints, the inevitability of the belt's return to Cena (note where Summerslam is this year) and the poor initial showing by the new ECW are enough to keep the indicator where it is for now. The pieces are in place, though, especially on RAW, for improvements to be made to the IWC's psyche in the near future.
Lexus
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.09
You know, I'm none too happy the government might be tapping my conversations, but there are a few things to consider.

1. Doing this costs money. If the Gov't wants to bankrupt itself (oh, wait) doing this, by all means. Eventually, when it is brought into a budgetary point of view, which will happen right around when the next depression hits, some people will wonder why money's getting wasted on it.

2. Answer the phone by saying 'Fuck Bush', or randomly drop buzzwords like assassinate, bomb, cocaine, what have you. If your conversations about playing GTA IV get listened into enough, whatever is in charge of monitoring your phone will run out of money faster.

3. I'm not doing anything illegal anyway. If the gov't wants to spend time hearing everybody, they won't hear anybody.



"Laugh and the world laughs with you. Frown and the world laughs at you."
-Me.
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 13 days
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.95
I have mixed feelings about the immunity aspect as they did this at the request of the Administration. It's easy to say they should have known better but with all that is going on, I can see how they do it. The bigger problem for me is the gutting of the constitution and Bill of Rights. AN an even bigger problem IMO is that there is no objective consensus that most of the measures since 9-11 have made us any safer.



Perception is reality
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.75
Well, we've not been attacked since 9-11.

I am torn, really I dont care if the government listens in on my conversations, all they will hear is me trying to get laid, or bitching about work.

However, as a firm believer in the Constitution, I have issues with this.

The immunity thing I don't care about, since nobody was going to go to jail for cooperating with the government anyway. Big fines that would mean more cost to the consumer was the only thing that would have happened.

Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.09
I sent Wyden a thank you for his vote. I know it probably doesn't mean much to him (my thank you), but it (his vote) does to me.

Is Dodd wacky in some way I don't know about, or is he the real deal? He seems to be one of the few that get it.

(edited by Guru Zim on 10.7.08 1334)



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TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.04
    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
    The saddest part about this whole thing, to me at least, is that this guy

    <-------

    wasn't on that list. I voted for him because he was supposed to have the guts to stand up for stuff like this, and it extremely disheartens me to see him already crumbling under fear of McCain playing the "soft on terror" card this fall.


You mean he says he has the guts to stand up for stuff like this. Barack Obama has never done anything to challenge the status quo except declare himself to be challenging the status quo.

To anybody who has paid attention to Obama's voting record since joining the Senate, this vote is exactly what was to be expected.
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 161 days
Last activity: 1 day
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.73
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    I have mixed feelings about the immunity aspect as they did this at the request of the Administration. It's easy to say they should have known better but with all that is going on, I can see how they do it. The bigger problem for me is the gutting of the constitution and Bill of Rights. AN an even bigger problem IMO is that there is no objective consensus that most of the measures since 9-11 have made us any safer.

I'm pretty much in agreement with DrDirt. Not only did the telecom companies do the wiretapping at the behest of the administration which implies they weren't going to get prosecuted, but there were also some veiled threats of what would happen if they did not comply. Moreover, given the climate at the time, an overreaction isn't surprising. And, once you the toothpaste gets out of the tube...

I absolutely don't think it was right, but anytime there's a crisis or some type of big and sudden problem, people tend to overreact and be completely irrational initially (for a current example see prices, oil and market, housing). To me, the issue with this bill is that we don't seem to be correcting the initial wiretapping/PATRIOT Act overreaction. Hopefully we won't make the same mistake with oil prices or housing, but initial signs are pretty grim.
BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 8 hours
Last activity: 56 min.
#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.82
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    I sent Wyden a thank you for his vote. I know it probably doesn't mean much to him (my thank you), but it (his vote) does to me.

    Is Dodd wacky in some way I don't know about, or is he the real deal? He seems to be one of the few that get it.

    (edited by Guru Zim on 10.7.08 1334)


I thought this was a really good idea, and did the same to my Senator, who happens to be, Chris Dodd. I will ignore my other Senator who is nothing more than a snake in the grass. A man who sold out his duty to the people to hang on to power no matter who or what he sells out, Joe Lieberman.

As for Chris Dodd, I am a fan of his. I'm not sure people in this state take him that seriously yet though. He might actually end up being a little too liberal for the state of Connecticut, which would be a shame.

Texas Kelly
Lap cheong








Since: 3.1.02
From: FOREST HILLS CONTROLS THE UNIVERSE

Since last post: 104 days
Last activity: 17 hours
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.83
Ladies and gentlemen, the following public service message is brought to you by your friends from D-Generation X, who would like to remind each and every one of you that if you're not down with that, we've got two words for you...

    Originally posted by Texas Kelly
    Besides, if Anthony Kennedy is worth his salt he'll vote with the good guys to strike it down on the obvious constitutional grounds when this inevitably is placed before the Supremes.

We've headed down this path even quicker than I thought we would: The ACLU sued to strike FISA down the very day Bush signed it (blog.wired.com).



e-mail me at texas (dot) kelly (at) gmailread a bunch of incoherent nonsense
now 52% more incoherent!
smark/net attack Advisory System is Elevatedsmark/net attack Advisory System Status is: Elevated
(Holds; June 18, 2006)
While the switch from Cena to RVD should alleviate some complaints, the inevitability of the belt's return to Cena (note where Summerslam is this year) and the poor initial showing by the new ECW are enough to keep the indicator where it is for now. The pieces are in place, though, especially on RAW, for improvements to be made to the IWC's psyche in the near future.
RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

Since last post: 18 days
Last activity: 18 days
AIM:  
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.17
Just a reminder that we are our own worst enemy

Web networking photos come back to bite defendants

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080719/ap_on_hi_te/tec_facebook_evidence

Someone may figure out that using this in court is probably against several rights, but the 1st, the 5th, Miranda and common sense all contradict one another in a country run by lawyers, for lawyers

FLEA







(edited by RYDER FAKIN on 19.7.08 0927)


Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high
BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 8 hours
Last activity: 56 min.
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.98
    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    Just a reminder that we are our own worst enemy

    Web networking photos come back to bite defendants

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080719/ap_on_hi_te/tec_facebook_evidence

    Someone may figure out that using this in court is probably against several rights, but the 1st, the 5th, Miranda and common sense all contradict one another in a country run by lawyers, for lawyers

    FLEA







    (edited by RYDER FAKIN on 19.7.08 0927)


You could say this guy is an idiot and had what was coming to him, in this case maybe so. Then again it sure makes it easier for 'Big Brother' to build a case against you. It may be safer to avoid digital cameras from here on out if this is how they are going to play.

CEOIII
Boudin rouge








Since: 25.7.02
From: Franklin, PA

Since last post: 13 days
Last activity: 12 hours
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.01
He put it on the net, that makes it public, that makes it fair game.



I'm Charlie Owens, good night, and good luck.
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 127 days
Last activity: 127 days
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.04
    Originally posted by CEOIII
    He put it on the net, that makes it public, that makes it fair game.


So putting something on a private page that only friends subscribed to that said page can view makes something public? Why? Is this different from putting them in a physical photo album that is in your closet? Why shouldn't privacy laws also apply to the Internet?

And besides, the story does not say he put them on the Web. The story says:


    In the age of the Internet, it might not be hard to guess what happened to those pictures: Someone posted them on the social networking site Facebook. And that offered remarkable evidence for Jay Sullivan, the prosecutor handling Lipton's drunken-driving case.


The emphasis is, of course, mine.
Mr. Boffo
Scrapple








Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

Since last post: 507 days
Last activity: 467 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.30
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Originally posted by CEOIII
      He put it on the net, that makes it public, that makes it fair game.


    So putting something on a private page that only friends subscribed to that said page can view makes something public? Why? Is this different from putting them in a physical photo album that is in your closet? Why shouldn't privacy laws also apply to the Internet?

    And besides, the story does not say he put them on the Web. The story says:


      In the age of the Internet, it might not be hard to guess what happened to those pictures: Someone posted them on the social networking site Facebook. And that offered remarkable evidence for Jay Sullivan, the prosecutor handling Lipton's drunken-driving case.


    The emphasis is, of course, mine.


If you go to a party, you open yourself to having pictures taken of you. If you (or your friends) then post compromising pictures in a place freely available to anyone who stumbles across them, you can expect the consequences. This was not a locked page. No one petitioned Facebook to make them available. The prosecuting attorney was told about them, he found them, and he made use of them.

That makes it more like putting the photos in a photo album that you then leave open on the sidewalk in front of your house.

I don't understand why this case was posted in a thread about FISA. Lawyers have been catching stupid criminals posting incriminating evidence on MySpace/Facebook for years. It's nothing new.
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 5 days
Last activity: 5 days
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.86
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
    If you go to a party, you open yourself to having pictures taken of you. If you (or your friends) then post compromising pictures in a place freely available to anyone who stumbles across them, you can expect the consequences.


At this point, leaving my house can open me up to all sorts of consequences.

We all are entitled to a reasonable expectation of privacy - and just because we step outside our homes doesn't mean we should toss that expectation out the window. Just because someone goes to a party or a nightclub (or out in public) doesn't mean that they should expect photo-documentation of their experiences to be readily available to everyone.

When you post photos to one of these Web 2.0 services, you are signing over some rights of distribution. What if the photos had been deleted from the profile? Do Facebook or MySpace still retain copies, even if the photos are no longer on the profile? Can those deleted copies be subpoenaed? I have both Facebook and MySpace accounts, and I don't know the answer to those questions. That concerns me.

I know people who will not post photos of their children on MySpace or Facebook. I know people who won't allow photos of themselves to be taken with a cocktail in their hand. But they can't always control those situations, and I think that is a serious issue.





NonDescript, Tue @ 9a PDT
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CEOIII
Boudin rouge








Since: 25.7.02
From: Franklin, PA

Since last post: 13 days
Last activity: 12 hours
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.01
    Originally posted by Leroy
    At this point, leaving my house can open me up to all sorts of consequences.

    We all are entitled to a reasonable expectation of privacy - and just because we step outside our homes doesn't mean we should toss that expectation out the window. Just because someone goes to a party or a nightclub (or out in public) doesn't mean that they should expect photo-documentation of their experiences to be readily available to everyone.


So......what you do shouldn't be public, even when you're in public?



I'm Charlie Owens, good night, and good luck.
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 5 days
Last activity: 5 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.86
    Originally posted by CEOIII
    So......what you do shouldn't be public, even when you're in public?


It should be public when I am in public - not saved for posterity for the world to view without my explicit consent.

(edited by Leroy on 21.7.08 1250)




NonDescript, Tue @ 9a PDT
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EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc








Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

Since last post: 14 days
Last activity: 14 min.
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.90
    Originally posted by Leroy
    I know people who won't allow photos of themselves to be taken with a cocktail in their hand. But they can't always control those situations, and I think that is a serious issue.


They can control the situation by never holding a cocktail in their hand if they are unsure someone is taking a picture.

The rate at which data can be obtained and subsequently stored and accessed as opposed to just a decade ago is astounding. A large number of the freedoms we've enjoyed over the last 50 years are due to the fact that it's been impossible to police/monitor every single person all the time. Take driving, for example. Speed limits have always been loosely enforced based on whether or not a cop who happens to see someone speeding decides to pull him over. But how many people have EZ-Pass, which could explicitly prove whether or not someone exceeded the speed limit over a certain distance? The only reason we haven't been ticketed is because the government has been generous enough not to ticket us. Now, with cell-phone gps, black boxes in cars, etc, the opportunities to find the average american guilty of just one crime are suddenly astronomically greater.

Think about all the public cameras around. Traffic cameras, ATM cameras... Public privacy is a farce, and with communications consolidating into one pipe, privacy in the home will shortly be as much an illusion. Power corrupts, and whomever holds the keys to the servers that everyone uses will have a hell-of-a-lot of power at their disposal.

    Originally posted by Lexus
    I'm not doing anything illegal anyway. If the gov't wants to spend time hearing everybody, they won't hear anybody.


This won't be about looking for patterns to prevent attacks. This will be about witch-hunts against those looking to obtain power from those who have it. Even if they never come for you, they'll abuse this power against somebody else. (Think filegate, for a simpler example).

The sad thing is that its inevitable that this will happen, if we aren't already there.



You believe me, don't you?
Please believe what I just said...
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- astrobstrd, Ashcroft hospitalized (2004)
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