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The W - Random - Fahrenheit 9/11 Reactions (Page 3)
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Doc_whiskey
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Since: 6.8.02
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#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.18
    Originally posted by Llakor
      Originally posted by Iago
      This isn't a documentary.

      That's what I said, and let me repeat: this isn't a documentary. What is it? Well it's more a cinematic editorial.


    No, offense but you don't what a documentary is. In fact calling a documentary "a cinematic editorial" is about as good a definition as any. All documentaries have opinions. All documentaries use some form of editing to tell their story better. Some are just more circumspect about their opinions than others. And in some cases, the opinions are non-political when the documentary films subject is non-political.

    And BTW, while I am by no means a fan of Disney censoring itself and chickening out on releasing this film and if I was a Disney share holder I would want Michael Eisner's head on a platter, but the censorship applied to this film is by no means as extreme as say that applied during the Reagan administration against "If You Love This Planet" and two films about acid rain which Edwin Meese had declared as "political propaganda" to try and reduce their distribution in the United States.

    (Cause Acid Rain is caused by TREES yo and anyone who says differently must be some kind of communist.)

    (edited by Llakor on 27.6.04 0851)


yeah but most documentaries actually show an opposing point of view.



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ges7184
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Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

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#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.26
    Originally posted by Stilton
      Originally posted by Doc_whiskey
        Originally posted by asteroidboy
        >because there are significant forces out there that are trying to keep you from watching this movie.




        (edited by asteroidboy on 26.6.04 1756)

        (edited by asteroidboy on 26.6.04 1757)


      Yeah just yesterday some guys stopped by my house. They said don't see Fahrenheit 911. I was going to tell them I was going to see it anyways, but they were pretty big so I decided not to go.


    Doc Whiskey, perhaps you hadn't heard, but The Cult of The Six-Foot Rat, Mickey Monster (also known as Disney) tried to prevent the film from being distributed at all. Why? To kiss the Bush family's asses and maybe keep their fat tax breaks in Florida.

    I saw the movie today, and I have to say it's one of the best documentaries I've ever seen, and maybe one of the most important. A must see, literally.


No, no, no. Disney simply refused to distribute the film themselves. They never sought to block anyone else from distributing the film, and in fact encouraged Moore to find another distributor. I am still convinced all of that controversy was partly fabricated to generate free publicity for the film.



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Since: 21.4.04

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#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.37
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
      Originally posted by avonhun
      as for the 2000 election, there should have been a recount as opposed to supreme court ruling.


    How many moore(sic) recounts do you want? Still waiting for the "unconstitutional" explanation...


first of all, normally regardless of the election results every voting district is supposed to do a recount of their results, this didn't happen. second of all, what happened in florida was a state issue. although it affected things on a national level it was the state of florida that should have been in contol of the situation. it never should have gone to the supreme court unless a florida court could not determine an outcome. you are right, unconstitutional was the wrong word, what i meant was undemocratic.
i dont think it was mentioned in the film but the black voters whos votes were not counted had similar names to people on a felony list sent from texas to florida by none other than george w. bush. if you want to see the actual documents read chapter 1 of "the best democracy money can buy" by greg palast. his story was on the cover of the guardian in england just days after the election.

edit: come to think of it, the powers of supreme court are layed out in the constitution. so if you wanted to you could look it up and see that did not use their power correctly, but i dont really feel like doing it.

(edited by avonhun on 27.6.04 0955)
Doc_whiskey
Frankfurter








Since: 6.8.02
From: St. Louis

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#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.18
I'm also sure it didnt mention how voting stations in historically voting democratic regions of St. Louis were also kept open longer then they should have been to allow more people to vote for Gore. There is plenty of things to pick apart on both sides of that election. Fact is what happened happened, no amount of complaining can change it, move on to the present. You hate what happened so much , then vote against Bush this year (I'm sure I dont have to tell you to do that though ;).)

(edited by Doc_whiskey on 27.6.04 1209)


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Whitebacon
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Since: 12.1.02
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#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.27
    Originally posted by avonhun
      Originally posted by Eddie Famous
        Originally posted by avonhun
        as for the 2000 election, there should have been a recount as opposed to supreme court ruling.


      How many moore(sic) recounts do you want? Still waiting for the "unconstitutional" explanation...


    first of all, normally regardless of the election results every voting district is supposed to do a recount of their results, this didn't happen. second of all, what happened in florida was a state issue. although it affected things on a national level it was the state of florida that should have been in contol of the situation. it never should have gone to the supreme court unless a florida court could not determine an outcome. you are right, unconstitutional was the wrong word, what i meant was undemocratic.
    i dont think it was mentioned in the film but the black voters whos votes were not counted had similar names to people on a felony list sent from texas to florida by none other than george w. bush. if you want to see the actual documents read chapter 1 of "the best democracy money can buy" by greg palast. his story was on the cover of the guardian in england just days after the election.

    edit: come to think of it, the powers of supreme court are layed out in the constitution. so if you wanted to you could look it up and see that did not use their power correctly, but i dont really feel like doing it.

    (edited by avonhun on 27.6.04 0955)



Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the Democrats that took it to the Supreme Court?




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Since: 27.2.03
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#46 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.66
As to the question of what constitutes a documentary, I should point out that a true documentary should always aspire to objectivity. Now, obviously true objectivity can never be obtained, because the director is just a person and has their own opinions which will impact how they film anything. Michael Moore's films are not documentaries. They are non-fiction films, but that's not quite the same thing. His films have much more in common with a film like Atomic Cafe than they do with films like Superstar or Life and Times of Harvey Milk. Moore's films, and I don't mean this in a bad way, are really just propaganda pieces. He is literally trying to promote a point of view. A true documentary shouldn't be trying to do this. I really do think the term "cinematic editorial" is a very apt one (not to mention much less loaded than a word like propaganda).
Freeway
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Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

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#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.24
According to Box Office Mojo, Fahrenheit 9/11 has made an estimated $21 million over its first weekend. The film opened on only 868 screens and averaged $25,125 per screen.

To contrast, Bowling for Columbine opened on 46 screens for $210,000 for the first few weeks, then expanded to 162 and then to 248. During its entire domestic run, it grossed $21 million. Worldwide, it made $58 million.

AND...the OFFICIAL ACADEMY DEFINITION:


    Rule Twelve
    Special Rules for The Documentary Awards

    I. DEFINITION
    1. An eligible documentary film is defined as a theatrically released non-fiction motion picture dealing creatively with cultural, artistic, historical, social, scientific, economic or other subjects. It may be photographed in actual occurrence, or may employ partial re-enactment, stock footage, stills, animation, stop-motion or other techniques, as long as the emphasis is on fact and not on fiction.

    2. A film that is primarily a promotional film, a purely technical instructional film or an essentially unfiltered record of a performance will not be considered eligible for consideration for the Documentary awards.

    II. CATEGORIES
    The Documentary Awards are divided into two categories:
    1. Documentary Feature - films more than 40 minutes in running time, and
    2. Documentary Short Subject - films 40 minutes or less (including all credits) in running time. .

    III. ELIGIBILITY
    1. To be eligible for award consideration for the 2004 awards year, a documentary film must qualify via theatrical exhibition (within two years of the film’s completion date) between September 1, 2003 and August 31, 2004. No television or internet transmission shall have occurred at any time anywhere in the world in any version prior to the qualifying run or furthermore contrary to section III.2.B(1) or III.2.B(2) of these rules.




(edited by Freeway420 on 27.6.04 1415)


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eviljonhunt81
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Since: 6.1.02
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#48 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.88
    Originally posted by Whitebacon
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the Democrats that took it to the Supreme Court?


You're wrong.

Bush vs. Gore



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EddieBurkett
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Since: 3.1.02
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#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.19
While this film may be a documentary based on denotation, I think the connotation of documentary requires that the film be less biased than it is.

I found the movie to be enjoyable and compelling, but some of the footage felt like cheap shots. Ashcroft singing was funny, and the opening and closing with the pre/post interview shots was interesting, but those clips did nothing to provide insight into how these people run the country. They just made them look rather dumb, which I'm sure anyone would appear based on those not-quite-ready moments when the camera isn't supposed to be rolling yet.

And I'm sure that Ashcroft isn't the first member of an administration to sing publicly. It seems that if you take even a moment to goof off, Moore will film it and use it against you. I'm sure there's footage of other presidents enjoying themselves playing golf and whatnot, and it seems like Moore is unfairly using this footage against Bush. (Although it is used well as far as underscoring the fact that Bush takes a lot of vacation. I'm just saying that its cheap that Moore takes the most egregious vacation footage and uses that to typify what Bush vacations are completely like. But that's the nature of the beast.)

I also didn't care for Moore's portrayal of pre-invasion Iraq. If I didn't know any better I'd think the nation was one giant schoolyard what with all the kids. (Yes, I got his point, but its way too convenient for him to show the beheading in Saudi Arabia while making Iraq look completely innocent. Then again, maybe I'm wrong and Iraq was a wonderful place under Saddam.)

Also, he basically says that we shouldn't be in Iraq, but he doesn't suggest what we should do now. Perhaps that's not supposed to be within the scope of this film, but he seems to suggest that we should just pack up and leave Iraq given both the sentiment of the Iraqi people and our troops stationed there. Does he really think that's the best solution?

All of that said though, Bush sure does make Moore's job easy. There had to be at least five times where Bush said something and I had to put my hand to my head in disbelief that the President didn't have the common sense to know what he said sounded bad. If anything, showing Bush's ineptitude would probably be more effective from a propadandist standpoint than trying to play up the Bush-Saudi connections. (On a side note, he asserts that its bad that the Saudis be so invested in our economy, but also points out that it would be bad if they pulled out suddenly. Again, what does he think is the solution to this? Or is there none?) Just let Bush go out there and say stupid stuff, and as boring as Kerry is, people will at least realize he isn't stupid. I still can't get over the closing quote.

Also, I agree with Iago about Moore's choice of music. Impeccable.

This film is a great starting point for someone to get involved with politics and the upcoming presidential race, but by no means should anyone who has seen this feel completely educated. I doubt this will sway anyone's opinion of Bush (it didn't for me), but as a film, I was entertained for a few hours.



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Iago
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Since: 17.2.04
From: Eugene, Oregon

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#50 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.67
Well I chose the term editorial because it fits better to me. On a technical level it is a documentary.

Incidentally in the Eugene Weekly, a local alternative newspaper there was a great advert for Fahrenheit, Moore and Bush holding hands in front of the White House, with the headline, "What Controversy?"

    Originally posted by EddieBurkett
    I also didn't care for Moore's portrayal of pre-invasion Iraq. If I didn't know any better I'd think the nation was one giant schoolyard what with all the kids. (Yes, I got his point, but its way too convenient for him to show the beheading in Saudi Arabia while making Iraq look completely innocent. Then again, maybe I'm wrong and Iraq was a wonderful place under Saddam.)


I agree with you, it left a sacchrine like taste in my mouth. But I am working under the supposition he was using contrasting images to add some more punch (as if it were needed) to pictures of post-invasion Iraq. Still I can't believe life under Saddam and his regime was so idyllic.

    Originally posted by EddieBurkett
    Also, he basically says that we shouldn't be in Iraq, but he doesn't suggest what we should do now. Perhaps that's not supposed to be within the scope of this film, but he seems to suggest that we should just pack up and leave Iraq given both the sentiment of the Iraqi people and our troops stationed there. Does he really think that's the best solution?


Well Bowling for Columbine didn't really offer a solution either. Maybe because there really isn't one. Or Moore didn't want to venture a guess, who can say?

    Originally posted by EddieBurkett
    There had to be at least five times where Bush said something and I had to put my hand to my head in disbelief that the President didn't have the common sense to know what he said sounded bad. If anything, showing Bush's ineptitude would probably be more effective from a propadandist standpoint than trying to play up the Bush-Saudi connections.


I don't like the guy (Bush), but I had hoped he would become a better orator, a better speaker. He is the president, and as such is the most visible American in international political world. Overall I think he has improved, but it still seems to me as though improvisation is not his strong suit.

    Originally posted by EddieBurkett
    (On a side note, he asserts that its bad that the Saudis be so invested in our economy, but also points out that it would be bad if they pulled out suddenly. Again, what does he think is the solution to this? Or is there none?)


See above comment. While it can be a bit aggrevating I like that he doesn't offer up an answer. I feel Moore is operating under the "identify the problems clearly first" principle. But then I am not telepathic.

    Originally posted by EddieBurkett
    I still can't get over the closing quote.


The closing quote was a tie in, though at first it seems a bit incongruous. At that point if you looked back through the movie, you can see the hints towards that final point made by the quote.

    Originally posted by EddieBurkett
    Also, I agree with Iago about Moore's choice of music. Impeccable.


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estragand
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#51 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.80
There were only a few theatres showing this around Denver, so we ended up going to a theatre right outside of Boulder. Added to the entertainment value with all the liberal hippies in the audience. Heard: "ooph..you son of a bitch" roughly 50 times. Funniest part was during the Britney Spears appearance...girl behind us shouted out "you f*cking wh*re!!"

I didn't take everything in the movie as gospel, but it raised my eyebrows a few times. I'm a bit discouraged that it won "best film" at a French film festival (Insert Obvious French joke HERE)... 'cuz in my eyes it's not really a movie. It's a PBS two-hour special...only Moore knows how to cash in. I feel like the award committee shafted someone who actually worked on a complete MOVIE, with a plot/resolution, symbolism, character development and all that other stuff film students love. If I had worked on a movie and I lost out to Moore, I'd feel a little cheated, whether I agreed with his politics or not.

Also, if you got a chuckle out of the parachute escape gadget, check out the "War on Terror" episode of Penn & Teller's BullSh*t.

By the way...it would have been nicer if the movie was in focus




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Since: 11.1.02
From: Japan

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#52 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.00
I thought Fahrenheit 9/11 was just ok. Mostly because I follow closely what happens with this administration and nothing was really new to me. But the person I saw it with was really shocked. Too bad the person is Japanese and can't vote this November. Seeing the lady cry over her son was just heartbreaking. It is hard for me to give a fair unbiased review for this movie. I work on a Army base and I have seen some of these guys' faces when the learn they are due for deployment for Iraq. Only the ones who never saw combat and are really young go "Hoorah". The rest, get this look. Knowing they could never leave that place alive. If Iraq was on a country hopping campaign conquering everywhere they saw fit. Then you would see these guys ready to die to save America. But what are they dying for now? To stop Saddam from marching into D.C.? All these people on this board who arrogantly defend American kids dying under the banner of freedom need to wake the fuck up. Freedom for who? And the funny thing is these healthy, 20 something year olds are not ENLISTING and getting their asses to Iraq to help the cause. I guess their voices can be heard louder when they are safe behind their computers in the air condition.




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Scrapple








Since: 20.6.02
From: I am the Tag Team Champions!

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#53 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.85
FINALLY headed out to see Fahrenheit 9/11 after 3 or 4 days of constant sell-outs and busy days of my own. Caught a matinee at the Pacific Theater in Culver City, right around the corner from Sony studios.

The first thing I notice is that the theater's packed. But about 80% of the moviegoers are all elderly senior citizens. First stereotype? Conservative crowd. Didn't think this would be pretty.

However, there were no cries of outrage. There was only one heckler towards the beginning, but at the end, even HE joined the rest of the theater in giving the movie a standing ovation.

So much powerful imagery here, with the disgruntled soldiers in Iraq, the frightened civilians, the mother who lost her son, and the corporate cretins who think of nothing beyond their next payday. While most of the informed are underwhelmed by the ideas presented (pick up books like The Haliburton Agenda and House of Bush, House of Saud and it'll tell you a lot of these same things), a movie with Michael Moore's style are the best ways to inform the public at large. I say no more without steering this into a Politics convo.

Moore has such a unique technique that it really should be commended. Best documentary? No, not while Super Size Me is out there. Is it worth viewing? Definitely!




I sure showed NBC! I wonder what Michael Savage thinks?
drjayphd
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Since: 22.4.02
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#54 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.62
You wanted the best, you got... Out of Context Quote of the Week.

"Wake me when any of them are naked." (Barbwire Mike)


Cheap night finally rolled around yesterday, so I saw it. As I really don't have anything else to say that anyone else's said (although the bit with Bush's records and "Cocaine" got a good laugh, not quite as big as the "Vacation" cue), I wonder if anyone's tried to get theaters to let them register voters outside (of the building, of the theaters showing it, whatever). There were a lotta people there who probably would've signed up RIGHT THEN.

estragand: You have no idea how tempting it was to do that when Britney was on too. I think the only reason she wasn't booed off the screen was that everyone was amazed someone would actually think how she did. And yes, the parachutes brought back some great memories of that ep of Bullshit! here.



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Since: 28.6.02

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#55 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.29
    Originally posted by Nag
    Did Moore document how many people have now been taken off the streets in those ghettos, got degrees, now how steady jobs, and living productive lives thanks to the military? Oh, why do I ask? The 60's must have been a glorious era, but I only wish the bleeding heart paper hangers of today could distinguish the many differances between Vietnam and Persian Gulf II.



Contrast that with the Marine that's making 2K a month protecting the Halliburton employee that's making 8k-10k a month.

My only disparity with the movie IMO is the seven-minute stretch. Moore criticizes Bush for sitting around, but ultimately, that's Dubya's choice -- not mine. I am curious, though, about what George was thinking.
OMEGA
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Since: 18.6.02
From: North Cacalacky

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#56 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.66
Just got to see Fahrenheit 9/11 today. I've been trying to go for the past week, but only two theatres are showing it in my area, and each showing at each theatre has been sold-out.

I thought it was a HELL of a movie. Plenty of humor to balance out the seriousness of the subject. Some of the scenes were genuinely emotional (The woman reading the letter from her son that she got a week before his plane got shot down got to me).

While I'm sure several will disagree with a lot of the film, I recommend everyone to go see it, no matter where you stand. It was the first movie I've ever seen that got a standing ovation from the crowd afterwards.



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#57 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.68
I saw it yesterday and I have to say its not good as Bowling for Columbine, becuase I was on the edge of my seat in that. The problem, I had with it was I know as much information about the Bush's administration, so when it came in the movie I wasn't as shocked. However, he did tie it altogether very nicely without being boring. The second part with the mother from Flint is the heart of the movie. I too was emotionally torn up by her scarifice and was ashamed to be a human being when that strange woman started screaming into the cameras that it was staged even though she knew nothing about what was going on. That scene sums up my opinion of the critics of this film. They scream its evil and not factual even though they don't know what is really going on.

It also got an ovation at the theater I was in and since its made about $60 million dollars in its two week run, I'd say that a lot of people who are not anti-Bush are seeing it and come to the conclusion, Bush should be thrown out. However, its a long time til November, so we will see.
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Since: 11.7.02
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#58 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Apparently, there are (at least) 59 deceits in Farenheit 9/11...



If the Sudanese government can't or won't act, and the threat of international sanctions (the U.S. already has sanctions in place) doesn't work, then troops it must be. The ideal solution would be to use troops drawn from the region, but they don't seem to have sufficient numbers and training. Thus, once again, the world will be standing around, waiting to see what the United States does.

However, we already have two foreign military projects — Iraq and Afghanistan — that really ought to be finished up before we take on anything new. But there are major nations fresh and rested from sitting on the sidelines that can and should take the lead.

How about it, France and Germany? The criteria you said you'd need to justify intervention — a clear humanitarian crisis and a U.N. resolution — are there. We'll hold your coats.- East Valley Tribune editorial
OlFuzzyBastard
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Since: 28.4.02
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#59 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.98
I dunno, Grimis. Did you actually read that article? Most of the "lies" weren't anything close to that - either points the writer didn't like being made and therefore felt were "unfair" or wildly inappropraite hearsay and conjecture about Moore himself.

(The article, for example, actually implies that Michael Moore covering the 9/11 attacks was somehow decietful because he hates America and is rooting for the terrorists. And then it compares him to a Klansman.)

As always, Grimis, excellent reading.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#60 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
    The article, for example, actually implies that Michael Moore covering the 9/11 attacks was somehow decietful because he hates America and is rooting for the terrorists. And then it compares him to a Klansman.)
Actually it does not imply anything, as he comes out and says it. Of course, if the shoe fits...

And comparing him to a Klansman is not far off: Michael Moore has a visceral, unenlightened, ignorant hate of all things American(why else would he be loved by France?)...



If the Sudanese government can't or won't act, and the threat of international sanctions (the U.S. already has sanctions in place) doesn't work, then troops it must be. The ideal solution would be to use troops drawn from the region, but they don't seem to have sufficient numbers and training. Thus, once again, the world will be standing around, waiting to see what the United States does.

However, we already have two foreign military projects — Iraq and Afghanistan — that really ought to be finished up before we take on anything new. But there are major nations fresh and rested from sitting on the sidelines that can and should take the lead.

How about it, France and Germany? The criteria you said you'd need to justify intervention — a clear humanitarian crisis and a U.N. resolution — are there. We'll hold your coats.- East Valley Tribune editorial
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