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The W - Pro Wrestling - Extreme Rules 2012 Results Thread (Page 2)
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thecubsfan
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Since: 10.12.01
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.28
    Originally posted by wannaberockstar
      Originally posted by thecubsfan

        What does it matter if he lost the match, if he ultimately accomplished his goal of taking out Cena?


      Was that really his goal? It sure seemed like his goal was to beat Cena. Or if anything, Brock's goal was to make lot of $$$, and that's why he's got to win. Brock is definitely a sadist, but he's a mercenary first.


    I think Brock losing was the correct outcome.

    If he won, then he had nothing to prove. If he lost, then he can only use that to essentially run roughshod throughout the WWE until a rematch happens, eventually, with Cena


Again, Brock was not coming to WWE to prove anything. He already had proved everything he needed to prove the first time thru, and in UFC, that's why we care about Brock at all. Brock was coming back to make money by beating everyone.

Brock can (and maybe?) still will run over everyone until that rematch with Cena, but it would've been exponentially more effective if he had not already shown not to be as great as he was four weeks ago. Brock going into matches versus Punk or Orton or even Sheamus will still be notable matches, but they can no longer be for the only title that really matters - the title of being The Best Guy - because they've made sure Cena keeps that crown. That's inexplicable.

(But at least Edge's championship wins are now validated. I'm happy for him!)

A redemption arc leading to avenging a loss is a great idea. A great idea for a face, like Cena. It's way too soon to turn to Brock to a face - there should be more than a one month in it. Brock should have been treated like a monster. Brock was treated like a mean guy who loses his first match in a feud. That's Kane junk right there, you've brought back a multi-time champion who went to be a UFC champion and turned him into Kane after one match. And they're paying him a lot of money to him to be Kane!

Or, to pick another big guy, this is exactly what they did with Big Show when he came in, very long ago. And Big Show's been a main event guy at times and been useful at times and not so useful at times and really fat at other times, but he's never ever been The Best Guy and maybe he could've been if he wasn't pinned one month in. Brock's a great deal better than Big Show (and Kane!) but if they want him to be The Best Guy, they need to protect him like they do Cena, and Cena wouldn't lose in his first match back after a long absence.

There are definitely ways they can 'fix' things tonight, or at least come closer to fixing, but nothing will be as simple as beating Cena right before Cena was going to leave anyway.

Edit:

    Originally posted by lotjx
    So, now Lord Tensi is more of a threat, because he at least beat Cena, come on.


oh my gosh, this is the simplest and most correct argument - Cena does two losses this month, and they picked the guy who's leaving the next day and the guy who's not getting over to get the wins, and not the guy who is super over.

(edited by thecubsfan on 30.4.12 1017)


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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.36

If Brock is "all about the money" (work and shoot both), does his losing really matter?

When was the last time they talked about "winner's and loser's purses?" A few years ago when Striker was doing announcing on ECW/NXT?

I can see Brock saying that he's put Cena on the shelf, even though he lost the match, and now he wants the WWF title, because it will make him more money.



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Since: 12.12.01
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.73
    Originally posted by lotjx
    What we got was the same old same old Cena match.


I'll accept any criticism of the outcome except that one. That match was unlike anything ever seen in WWE before.

    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    The only way HHH/Lesnar would work is if Hunter's agreed to be the sacrificial lamb to rehab Brock's vicious killer image. Which I could see them doing, honestly.


I kind of want to see HHH/Lesnar. They never wrestled during his first run except in a threeway in Australia. Triple H is a logical defender of wrestling and the company. And HHH would have to lose. Hunter's on Raw tonight so he could be cruising for a bruising, Vader on Gorilla Monsoon after he lost the Rumble style. But it seems kind of soon for him to take the beating of his life less than a month after he took the beating of his life.

You think of all the Lesnar opponents who are theoretically on deck this year and I wonder if any of them are capable of having the kind of match with him Cena had last night. It takes a lot of bravery and a lot of lack of ego to let that guy tee off on you like that for 17 straight minutes. Brock doesn't really have to bust everybody up like a crazy wrecking machine now that he's done it once, but I wonder how you can tap into the dangerous spectacle in future PPV matches.
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.69
    Originally posted by the cubsfan
    oh my gosh, this is the simplest and most correct argument


Oh, please.

I'm pretty sure if you stuck a poll on wwe.com asking who'd win a fight between Brock Lesnar and Lord Tensai, Brock would edge it by more than a lot. Brock spent 90+% of the match looking like a bad ass mofo and it would take them about 30 seconds of air time tonight to make him look like the scariest guy on the planet again.

I agree having him lose last night was the wrong decision, but if you think Lord Tensai is now viewed as more of a threat or that they've relegated Brock to Kane levels in the fans' eyes you're absolutely doolally.

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.70
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    I kind of want to see HHH/Lesnar. They never wrestled during his first run except in a threeway in Australia. Triple H is a logical defender of wrestling and the company. And HHH would have to lose. Hunter's on Raw tonight so he could be cruising for a bruising, Vader on Gorilla Monsoon after he lost the Rumble style. [strong]But it seems kind of soon for him to take the beating of his life less than a month after he took the beating of his life.[/strong]


I wonder if that might make it more likely to happen? HHH could spin it in the future as "You took advantage of me when I was weak. I'm back to full strength now and coming after you." If HHH takes a beating tonight, it makes it harder to see him as a threat for a match. But with the excuse of "Yeah, I was still reeling from my WrestleMania match," it provides a bit of an out.
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.17
    Originally posted by dMr
      Originally posted by the cubsfan
      oh my gosh, this is the simplest and most correct argument


    Oh, please.

    I'm pretty sure if you stuck a poll on wwe.com asking who'd win a fight between Brock Lesnar and Lord Tensai, Brock would edge it by more than a lot. Brock spent 90+% of the match looking like a bad ass mofo and it would take them about 30 seconds of air time tonight to make him look like the scariest guy on the planet again.

    I agree having him lose last night was the wrong decision, but if you think Lord Tensai is now viewed as more of a threat or that they've relegated Brock to Kane levels in the fans' eyes you're absolutely doolally.




Would they after last night? Tensai even though he cheated still took Cena out something Brock could not. Its not like Brock played fair last night either. Brock has a large fanbase that if you did any poll, he would win it. It also doesn't change the fact that how it looks and also in the loose wrestling reality we live in Tesnai > Brock.


(edited by lotjx on 30.4.12 1121)

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.95
Jeez this isn't that hard to understand.

Brock the asskicker talks tons of trash and intimidates Cena for weeks. PPV match happens and Lesnar still loses. Cena after a year plus of mental doubt and verbal war preparing for the Rock, then a very violent month dealing with Lesnar unquestionably needs time off. Brock's legitimacy is now in question but he's still the asskicker. He's not seen as the alpha male anymore, he's not invincible and the whole roster sees it now.

Brock starts TERRORIZING the roster in an attempt to overcome his embarrassment of losing to Cena and goes after a major title (while destroying quite a few Superstars). Johnny Ace uses contractual loopholes and shortcuts to redeem the goofball decision to sign Lesnar with a ridiculous contract. All the while the loss to Cena is still in the back of his head and the path of destruction continues until Cena returns for the rematch.

Also the Tensai win over Cena means nothing if the majority of fans give no shits for Tensai. Popularity > match wins

(edited by CruelAngel777 on 30.4.12 0930)
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.93
I preface this with the fact I did not watch this card. I know only the booking decision and a few clips I watched. But then what I think I think probably doesn't need to be informed with having seen every second of the match.

What I did watch this weekend via the glory of Netflix Instant (manna from heaven for wrestling fans) was the HBK v. Hart Rivalry documentary.

As expected the documentary spent a good chunk of time dealing with the leadup to Montreal and all the machinations that surrounded it. The thing that struck me was just how important everything was for both Bret and Vince/HBK/HHH about people doing things the right way. The idea that Bret would be ruined by one ill-placed and ill-timed loss. The idea that the WWF would be ruined by Hart not doing proper business on the way out. This consumed everyone involved, to the point where a long-time employee was lied to and publicly humiliated on his last day with the company. All because McMahon felt that Hart had to go out on his back, dropping the belt, and making sure he left the right way.

Nearly fifteen years later Cena and Lesnar are in a match. No physical title is on the line, but as cubsfan put it, the title of "The Best Guy" was most certainly on the line as seen by the match being placed in the main event spot. Something that no one possibly questioned, even when we all thought Cena would lose. The idea of maybe putting Punk winning in the main event slot to send the people home on a high note was never mentioned, so obvious was the main event status, the supertitle status, of this match.

And then Cena wins. Hits his finisher, ref counts to three, match over. And Lesnar does...nothing. Cena on the other hand does something that amazes me having spent a good chunk of time this weekend with Montreal on my mind.

Cena tells the crowd he's taking a vacation. That specific word, a "vacation" was in the plans for him. He was able to get on the mic after the show, chat with the fans, give a Cena speech, and tell everyone he's going on vacation.

Yes I realize that they are trying to sell some sort of injury angle, that Cena tore every muscle from his pointer to his shoulder or whatever. I'm sure Brock will show up and be angry and may even attack the "injured" arm and put Cena out for however long it takes to shoot Marine 5 or whatever he's doing.

But I will still be amazed that the same guys (HBK excluded) who decided that it was so damn important that Bret Hart go out the "right way" would now have a guy win a match where he essentially keeps the title of "Best non-Dwayne Man on Earth" and then tell everyone "off to the beach or something. Catch you at The Summerslam!" and walk off to the back. No retribution, no loss of face. No "doing business" or "doing the right thing." Leaving essentially of his own accord.

I'd say what happens on PPV doesn't really count if it is contradicted by something that happens on Raw, but if that's the case then Survivor Series 97 need never have happened I guess.

(All of this is moot if it turns out they only brought Lesnar in for one or two shots as some rumors I'm seeing are suggesting. But if Brock is still around next month then I am still amazed.)

(edited by spf on 30.4.12 1132)


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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.16
I only have one question from last night: Were they actually selling red Sheamus "18 Seconds" shirts, and if so, what was the purchase ratio vs. Daniel Bryan "YES! YES! YES!" shirts.

Lord Tensai > Brock. Pfft.

Brock is a star no matter what.



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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.39
By golly, the decision in this card's main event really devalues all those future house show appearances Brock Lesnar is signed on for.

I will save my bitching until RAW is over. Maybe I'll find out I suddenly have nothing to bitch about! (But probably not!)



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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.92
    Originally posted by John Orquiola
    I only have one question from last night: Were they actually selling red Sheamus "18 Seconds" shirts, and if so, what was the purchase ratio vs. Daniel Bryan "YES! YES! YES!" shirts.


Jill Thompson, who designed Bryan's outfits, made herself a t-shirt for last night's show. I'd buy this.





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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
    Originally posted by lotjx
    So, its ok for Cena to take time off, now? Wasn't the entire point of his feud with Rock about being the guy who is there every night in and night out. Just, amazing.

I think you're taking Cena's words out of context, though. I mean, geez, Cena's been in WWE constantly without any significant time off since, what, 2008?

Within the context of The Rock feud, The Rock showed up a few times here and there while Cena was around feuding with The Miz, CM Punk and Alberto Del Rio every week. It's not like Cena was NEVER going to take time off, ever. He's been around more than Lesnar and The Rock have.


I really think that this match was about changing people's perceptions of Brock Lesnar. WWE really doesn't need for Lesnar to have another Vader-style path of destruction like he did 10 years ago. That's totally a case of trying to re-live history.

I'm not saying Lesnar's going to be better off for this in the long run either, but I do think that WWE will be better off. What they're doing is adding more dimension to Brock. Actually, again, keeping him consistent with who he was in UFC, because that's what the Brock Lesnar brand is now.

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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.28
    Originally posted by dMr
      Originally posted by the cubsfan
      oh my gosh, this is the simplest and most correct argument


    Oh, please.

    I'm pretty sure if you stuck a poll on wwe.com asking who'd win a fight between Brock Lesnar and Lord Tensai, Brock would edge it by more than a lot. Brock spent 90+% of the match looking like a bad ass mofo and it would take them about 30 seconds of air time tonight to make him look like the scariest guy on the planet again.


I think I'm going to die on this hill, but I must've not been clear enough. I do not think people think Tensai is a bigger deal than Brock Lesnar. I do not think Brock Lesnar is now like Kane.

I think Brock Lesnar is a much, much bigger deal than Lord Tensai. My whole argument is, if they were willing to let Tensai beat Cena, then Brock can and should beat Cena too. There's so much more money in Brock beating Cena and CM Punk/Orton being the last hope than Brock winning a silly #1 contenders match on RAW tonight or a three months from now or whenever his next match is.

(maybe I should've just said "Cena should've beat Tensai and lost to Brock, this other way is really stupid.")

I also think Lesnar, prior to last night, is a significantly bigger deal than Cena. Now, he's not. He's still a very big deal, but his potential has been capped.

Also, for everyone saying "wins and losses don't matter", then why aren't you on my side on this one? I know I'm asking why Brock doesn't win, but why does Cena need to win himself if wins or losses don't matter?

They do. I know, it's fake and all, I am aware of this fact. I am also aware that John Cena has not been a particularly compelling wrestler, has been an annoying promo guy for years, and can't be all that charismatic if half the people boo him. And still, he makes the most money for the WWE and has done so for many years, because he won and wins all the time. Cena has the muscles too and maybe they help (though not other people), but Cena's not a super compelling guy like Shawn Michaels, Cena's a Superman who wins all the time and that's why the kids like him.



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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.73

I think many folks in this thread have made a compelling case for Brock winning or losing. Time will tell. After the beating Cena took, I kind of figured Brock wasn't winning the match. Regardless, this show was the best thing I've seen in a long long time. Three absolutely fantastic matches. For all who said they were tiring of Jericho/Punk, they capped it off with a spectacular emotional ending. Bryan losing was less than ideal for his fans, but he looked like a beast out there, believably beating up the much larger Seamus. When you're getting that sort of match quality, I don't think there's much to complain about.





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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.17
I'll die on this hill with you cubsfan, but I die on almost every hill on every other thread, so you know whatever. Hogan's Dad is right though, minus the Brock/Cena, there was a lot of good about the PPV. Most of the matches if not all the matches got the right call. I'd figure more people would be upset about Ziggler being a jobbed out again to Clay. That said, the end of Brock/Cena was just stupid.

Do I think Brock is less popular than Lord A-Train, no. I even stated, Brock would win any poll out there. Yet, in the "reality" of WWE, Tensai is apparently stronger than Brock. The real problem is while WWE moved itself up by having their top guy beat the former UFC Champ, they also devalued their big investment. Brock could have made more people stars then Cena ever did, if he actually ever made anyone a star. A lot of guys could have gotten a lot of mileage of almost beating Brock as opposed to almost beating Cena. Now, Brock is like everyone else on the roster, some guy Cena beat.

Even if Brock goes all Vader, Darth or otherwise, on the entire roster, it won't change the fact that Cena beat him. And if they do something equally stupid by having Brock destroy the roster only for Super-Cena to come back to beat him at SummerSlam. It will prove once again, everyone the roster is just a wimp compared to Cena. Beating Brock is a star making device. Cena did not need this especially if he is going to be gone after this week. Granted, I made the argument for Rock winning, but that was due to the fact people were paying their money to see Rock win and Rock winning would lead to a better Cena which sadly it didn't. It just lead to a Cena who defies greater odds than before.

(edited by lotjx on 30.4.12 1425)


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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.58
Fired-up speculation is pretty much the only real fun part of watching wrestling anymore, so I'm against anyone who doesn't check in with their opinion.

My take is, how strange is it that they're willing to do the losing streak with half the roster but aren't willing or smart enough to do it with Cena, the one guy who would actually benefit from a losing streak?

Brock just outright beating Cena in Round 1 is a perfect set-up for one of those scenes where the entire lockeroom is shown to be kinda scared shitless (these are, after all, the people who walked out because Miz had a baseball bat once) until the sea parts and out steps [Iconclast WWE Champion CM Punk/Great White Heavywight Champion who hates bullies, loves ta fight Sheamus/Insane Snake-God Worshipping Badass Who Kicks People In The Head When He Gets Bored Randy Orton/The Rock/Stone Cold Steve Austin/Ugh HHH] to rally the troops and get in Brock's face to say [CM Punk doesn't back down from anybody and hey was initially pushed as a cagey master of mixed fighting arts including a protected submission finisher/Me grandfadder once hadda castrate a prized bull like dat fella Brock Lesnar, ya know/My Name...Is Randy Orton/FINALLY, THE ROCK HAS COM...wait, is that Brock Lesnar? Uh, hey, Randy, you got this, right?/Oh look atcha, ya sonova bitch, witcher little bicycle shorts and yer little tattoos/Ugh 15 Minute HHH Promo].

The argument is, a feud against Lesnar bookended by Cena Wins<->Cena Wins is considerably less compelling than one that goes Brock beats Cena->HHH gets in Brock's face->Brock ends an era->Orton congratulates Brock on destroying Cena and HHH, who Orton doesn't like anyway, then RKOs Brock->Brock kills the Legend Killer->(possible tangent where some guy like Bryan/Ryback/Santino shocks the world by beating Brock and getting massively elevated->Brock kills that guy in revenge)->Rock returns to save WWE again->Brock destroys Rock->a vulnerable, significantly more easy to root for, motivated Cena returns and beats Brock for a huge rematch.

Basically, Brock beating Cena in Round 1 leaves all booking possibilities on the table. Cena winning Round 1 leaves several booking opportunities on the table, but diminishes the two big, non-Austin payoffs: Cena Revenge Match and Rock Returns To Save WWE. So that's why Brock losing stands out as so weird.

Anyway, yeah, wait and see is the logical response, but also the least fun, plus it's hard to remember the last time the "wait and see" outcome actually justified the odd booking choice. But yes, HHH returning to make sure Brock's demands are not met made and getting destroyed for it is the saving throw that puts everything back on track, has the most history (Brock never got over on HHH and actually bolted to Smackdown instead of facing him to kick off the two title/two brand era) and has the biggest impact considering what a big deal HHH is positioned as, so here's to that.
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.39
    Originally posted by lotjx
    Yet, in the "reality" of WWE, Tensai is apparently stronger than Brock.
You guys act like Tensai was out there all by himself like Brock was. If I even thought this was a valid argument, it would AT LEAST have to be "Tensai + Sakamoto + Otunga (optional '+ Laurinaitis') > Lesnar" and then...so what? Is this REALLY the big deal you're making it out to be? And even if it is...

2. Maybe Tensai IS stronger than Brock. Is this necessarily a bad thing? Again...so what?

Invoking "Prince Albert 2002 vs. Brock Lesnar 2002" is a smark's errand because nothing on television is doing so. Hell, they're not even (yet) invoking "Lord Tensai 2012 vs. Brock Lesnar 2012" - say, THERE'S a match I'd like to see! (he said, without sarcasm)



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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.17
    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by lotjx
      Yet, in the "reality" of WWE, Tensai is apparently stronger than Brock.
    You guys act like Tensai was out there all by himself like Brock was. If I even thought this was a valid argument, it would AT LEAST have to be "Tensai + Sakamoto + Otunga (optional '+ Laurinaitis') > Lesnar" and then...so what? Is this REALLY the big deal you're making it out to be? And even if it is...

    2. Maybe Tensai IS stronger than Brock. Is this necessarily a bad thing? Again...so what?

    Invoking "Prince Albert 2002 vs. Brock Lesnar 2002" is a smark's errand because nothing on television is doing so. Hell, they're not even (yet) invoking "Lord Tensai 2012 vs. Brock Lesnar 2012" - say, THERE'S a match I'd like to see! (he said, without sarcasm)


To be fair, Brock was able to use whatever or do whatever he wanted, so in a weird way it evens out. I had about three different ways, I could with this. Let me just say, this. If you were booking a $5 million investment would you have him lose in his first fight in what is a rather clean way considering the nature of the match? All the while having a guy who beat your investment lose to someone who wasn't even on your card? Even if it was just a wake-up call match or whatever? My guess is No.

The problem, I have is WWE once again does what it always does. Take something of value who got over without them and find a way to devalue them in some form. Now, can they recoup their loss from last night. Sure. But, it won't change the fact they played poorly with the hand they dealt. And its not the first time they have done this and we all say "Well, they have Raw to make it better." And usually they don't.

And yes, Tensai/Brock could be a good match.



(edited by lotjx on 30.4.12 1544)


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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.92
How is Triple H gonna come out to keep the WWE a safe place after he lost a no-confidence vote for not keeping the WWE a safe place? When the WWE wants to put some heel over as heartless, he beats up JR.



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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.59
    Originally posted by lotjx
    And yes, Tensai/Brock could be a good match.
I've been amused all month at how all the dream matches (Cena, Rock, Lesnar) were heavily pushed feuds in the past (maybe not Cena, but it was big enough that Cena named his finisher the FU as a result of his hatred of Lesnar). So I guess we should throw Lord Tensai on that list as well, from New Japan.

My distaste for the Brock loss and the Tensai win comes from my unshakable beliefs that Brock would have won if they hadn't booked the Tensai win, and that at the time of the Tensai win they were planning on a Brock win and a Cena losing streak.



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