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The W - Pro Wrestling - Evolution
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Mayhem
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Since: 25.4.03
From: Nashville, TN

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 13 hours
#1 Posted on

So various sites are reporting that Randy Orton will lead a new Evolution with possibly Batista and Maven against a babyface Triple H in a new guard vs. old guard feud. My questions are: 1.) Does Flair align with Orton or Triple H and 2.) Does Triple H recruit his Kliq buddies Nash & HBK for assistance?






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Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 7 hours
Last activity: 3 hours
#2 Posted on
1wrestling.com is reporting this:

"Maven displayed a somewhat heelish attitude on RAW this past Monday towards Shawn Michaels. The reason for this is that WWE is laying the foundation for a possible heel turn in the future. At this point, WWE wants to turn Triple H face later this year and have him feud with Randy Orton. Orton would then lead his own version of Evolution which would actually include all young wrestlers. Maven is being considered as a possible member for that group."

This and your post sound an awful lot like New Blood vs. Millionaires Club. I'm not enthused by seeing an Orton group yet either way. Let him simmer in Evolution for right now.




"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
InVerse
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Since: 26.8.02

Since last post: 1 day
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#3 Posted on
I could see Flair initially aligning himself with HHH only to turn on him and rejoin with Orton, citing that HHH is nothing but a Flair wannabe. I agree with a lot of people, though, they need to wait on this angle. Orton is rising fast, but he still has a long way to go. Then again, his match against Shawn Michaels has the potential to push him up to that next tier.
Crip
Mettwurst








Since: 1.3.03

Since last post: 3951 days
Last activity: 2725 days
#4 Posted on
The thought of this feud is exciting, probably the most exciting development in WWE for a few years. I think it has the legs to run for a good 6 months once undertaken.

But I do feel it should be held off until next year. If HHH is to drop the title at the next PPV and then take time off for his honeymoon, it is the perfect oppurtunity for Orton to get Evolution over on his own. He needs at least an IC title reign behind him. On HHH's return it makes sense that he comes back and assumes his leadership responsibilities of Evolution which in turn causes resentment on the part of Orton given that he held it together while HHH wasn't on screen.

It's almost a remake of DX, where after HBK dropped off, HHH picked up the ball and ran so to speak.



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RKMtwin
Boudin rouge








Since: 1.3.02
From: Denver, Colorado

Since last post: 2240 days
Last activity: 1683 days
#5 Posted on
Also, there could be other shades of history repeating itself if say, WWE mirrors reality with storyline and they stage a wedding ceremony for HHH and Steph only to have an Orton-led Evolution spoil the party. Imagine if Orton becomes a HHH much in the way HHH has tried to emulate Flair. I agree with Crip. If WWE did go with this, it could work itself into a HYOOGE angle.

WWE has a good opportunity to build this angle (if it is reality) but they've got to go about it like cooking a nice pot of black eted peas: slow simmer in a pressure cooker.



Mayhem
Scrapple








Since: 25.4.03
From: Nashville, TN

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 13 hours
#6 Posted on

I agree this could be a huge thing, but if history repeats itself, it'll just get f***ed up like everything else.

They could even throw Test into the mix since he's getting really good at the dickish heel persona.




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geemoney
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Since: 26.1.03
From: Naples, FL

Since last post: 1 day
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#7 Posted on
2 things:

1) I agree, they need to wait a while on this. The more they wait, with the current group getting more over as heels, the more effectiveness it will have when they break up.
2) Are people going to accept "face" Triple H? I probably wouldn't. As his last babyface run shows, he's a much better heel. I guess I don't get why they want to turn him.
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 2 hours
AIM:  
#8 Posted on
I gotta admit, I'm not particularly looking forward to Orton, Maven, and Batista ("Team Green") being the top heels on Raw. Top face HHH doesn't help matters, either. Call me a cynic, but what makes people think Face HHH will be much different from Heel HHH, in quality or drawing? Why not give Jericho a shot as either the top heel or face? Oh, right...

And here's a question: what if Goldberg defies all odds and becomes a big draw as the champ while HHH is out? Does HHH get to come back and retrieve his belt?



SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

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#9 Posted on
Of course HHH gets his belt back. He's Vince's Champion, and a McMahon.

Sadly, Face HHH is the least of my concerns with this "potential angle." Randy Orton being the leader of the heel faction on RAW? He's not there yet. Not even close.

And the though of him surrounding himself with BATISTA? Does this guy have ANY redeeming qualities besides tattoos and muscles? Maven? Wow.

Orton is going to need fireworks, a lazer light show, a full entorage of strippers, a gun, and Derek Jeter hitting a home run to signify his entrance, with a declaration of how great Orton is given by Former President Bill Clinton to get Orton over in a top spot of any sort right now.

Jericho, Kane, and even Goldberg are more over than HHH, Randy Orton, and all those other guys. Hell, even RVD is more over despite being kicked around. I don't see why they'd give Goldberg a two month reign as champ. You figure it's Goldberg/Kane at SurSer, at least, unless they skip the Kane part and go straight to Goldberg/Orton or Goldberg/HHH.

Either way, this angle is almost up there with Tank Abbott as WCW Champion. Well, maybe not THAT bad, but it's been a while.

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 3.9.03 1327)
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

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#10 Posted on
    Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID
    Of course HHH gets his belt back. He's Vince's Champion, and a McMahon.

But there's Vince's conundrum - Goldberg making Vince $$$ versus HHH as family. Vince'll be up all night debating that one.



SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

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#11 Posted on
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
      Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID
      Of course HHH gets his belt back. He's Vince's Champion, and a McMahon.

    But there's Vince's conundrum - Goldberg making Vince $$$ versus HHH as family. Vince'll be up all night debating that one.


Didn't seem to factor in much when he put HHH over Austin and Rock in their prime.
Mayhem
Scrapple








Since: 25.4.03
From: Nashville, TN

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 13 hours
#12 Posted on

    Didn't seem to factor in much when he put HHH over Austin and Rock in their prime.


He was just trying to make another megastar, unfortunately he created a monster ...




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BigVitoMark
Lap cheong








Since: 10.8.02
From: Queen's University, Canada

Since last post: 3434 days
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ICQ:  
#13 Posted on
    Originally posted by InVerse
    I could see Flair initially aligning himself with HHH only to turn on him and rejoin with Orton, citing that HHH is nothing but a Flair wannabe. I agree with a lot of people, though, they need to wait on this angle. Orton is rising fast, but he still has a long way to go. Then again, his match against Shawn Michaels has the potential to push him up to that next tier.


This match could have a lot more meaning to it than meets the eye. There has been a lot of criticism of Orton that he can't work and admittedly, despite being an Orton fan, I have yet to see what I would call a top notch Orton match. That said, Orton has yet to work a singles match on PPV, and how many great matches appear on Raw these days due to the timing of the show? The Shawn Michaels match is going to tell a lot. If Orton can do well and keep up with HBK, that will say a lot for his future. At the same time, if Michaels is wrestling circles around him and struggling to keep the match going, that will tell us a lot about Orton as well.

As for the New Evolution/New Blood-Millionaires Club idea, it could work in time. Orton needs more time as HHH's stooge boy. I'd timeline it to have Orton eliminate HHH from the Royal Rumble and announce his separation the next night on Raw. Flair absolutely has to stay with Orton, either directly or in a swerve on Hunter - not only to give the stable of young guys a better chance of getting/staying over by his name power and promo ability, but also because HHH and Flair as a face unit just would not work. I can't put it into words, but I just can't see that working at all. HHH can hold his own as a heel, but Flair would way overshadow him as a face and it would probably just end up pushing towards another HHH heel turn and Flair feud.
shea
Bockwurst








Since: 1.2.02
From: Brooklyn NY

Since last post: 4056 days
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.74
What's interesting to me is that Maven gets dismissed as the really low man on the Orton/Batista totem pole.

Fact is, Maven's the only one of the three who knows how to work a damn match, and he's actually ten times better on the mic than the other two.

And that's pretty sad, innit? That neither Orton or Batista has ever demonstrated any skills whatsoever that would justify their spots?
SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 9 hours
Last activity: 1 hour
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#15 Posted on
Whether or not Orton can work a match has little to do with whether he can be a successful heel or face, and doesn't really give any good idea about his future.

Brock can work a decent match, but I really don't see how he can be considered a success, or really even a failure. He's just there to add a supporting role to Kurt Angle. Can he work a match? Sure, but it takes more than that.

You need actors in the main events, first and foremost. Orton needs to develop his character more, and it looks like that's what they're doing. Austin could work a good match, but that's not why he was successful.

The HBK match is a good way to put Orton over, assuming he wins, but if the "quality" sucks I don't think it should break his career. It's not like anyone orders PPVs anymore anyway.

If Orton can work on making himself into something people can love or hate intensely, that's what matters. If it can be done through wrestling, great, but that probably isn't likely.

But, by all means, the overall feud with HBK should help his career. It's just that the athleticism of their match probably doesn't have as much to do with it as the story part and whether or not it enhances Orton's character.

WWE should not push people based on their ability to work in the ring. It hasn't worked that way since 1984.

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 5.9.03 1155)
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3318 days
Last activity: 3318 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
While in-ring isn't the be all and end all, it's more important these days because the fans have become accustomed to a certain level of quality. To be able to get away with a shit match you gotta be Rock vs Hogan, the first time. The second time it was the same horrible match but had no heat so no one was raving about it.

At the end of the day, you've still gotta be able to have guys that can sell the story in the match. The match doesn't have to be a technical masterpiece but they have to be good enough to tell a story. If Orton can't get people to buy his work, he'll be doomed because he doesn't have the luxury of being a freakish looking individual like Undertaker or have movie star charisma like The Rock.

Orton hasn't exactly had a chance to have a top notch match yet. This is his chance and if he can't have a good match with Shawn Michaels, he probably isn't ready to move to that next level. Rock's work wasn't very good at first but his mic work carried him to the next level. Orton's gotta put together more of a complete package to move ahead.
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 2 hours
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#17 Posted on
    Originally posted by shea
    Fact is, Maven's the only one of the three who knows how to work a damn match, and he's actually ten times better on the mic than the other two.

Whaaaaaaaaat?

When has Maven shown he can work a match?

I'll grant he's better on the mic, but only marginally better than Orton (Batista hasn't had a chance to work the mic yet).



Chico Santana
Boudin rouge








Since: 2.7.02
From: Jaaaaamacia Mon, No Problem.

Since last post: 4111 days
Last activity: 4109 days
#18 Posted on
I disagree, I can't stand Maven on the mic, plus he has no real character other than "generic tough enough kid". Though, I like him in the ring more than Orton because I've seen him in more matches. I have liked the promos of Orton thus far but need to see more emotion. If they want a new young group they should stick their best out there, If the rumors of Kane going over to Smackdown are true, they should get O'hair(sic?) on Raw. I say toss out the idea of Batista and Maven as members, and I would put Nowinski, O'hair, and Hurricane in Evolution for about 8 months. Once the Fan base is use to them as Evolution, start the turn with Orton as leader and throw out HHH with Flair, then have Flair(as posted above) screw Trips and lead the New Evolution. This way the "Paid, Laid, and Made" tag would fit a young, talented, and somewhat good looking group of guys, together with Flair as mouthpiece shouting his "limo riden', high flyin'" style promos.

(edited by Chico Santana on 5.9.03 1546)


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SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 9 hours
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#19 Posted on
    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    While in-ring isn't the be all and end all, it's more important these days because the fans have become accustomed to a certain level of quality. To be able to get away with a shit match you gotta be Rock vs Hogan, the first time. The second time it was the same horrible match but had no heat so no one was raving about it.

    At the end of the day, you've still gotta be able to have guys that can sell the story in the match. The match doesn't have to be a technical masterpiece but they have to be good enough to tell a story. If Orton can't get people to buy his work, he'll be doomed because he doesn't have the luxury of being a freakish looking individual like Undertaker or have movie star charisma like The Rock.

    Orton hasn't exactly had a chance to have a top notch match yet. This is his chance and if he can't have a good match with Shawn Michaels, he probably isn't ready to move to that next level. Rock's work wasn't very good at first but his mic work carried him to the next level. Orton's gotta put together more of a complete package to move ahead.


Rock vs Hogan the second time sucked, because there was no story to it. It was just "The Rock's back, let's partner him up with Hulk Hogan for a month!", which is the usual style of booking for WWE these days.

All the match did was further Rock's heel turn and act as a way for Rock to be paired against an over face so he could "ready" himself for Austin the next month. Then, we got Rock-Austin III, which WAS a good match, but had no story to it, as well. In the end, that didn't work out, either.

Yes, I agree that the ability to tell a story in the ring is important and that it doesn't have to be a technical masterpiece to get that across. I think the WCW Piper-Hogan matches in WCW are a prime example of this. Great matches, technically? God, no. But, those two got the job done in three PPVs within a one-year span. Each PPV match was a success.

And there was a decent story going on each time (Hogan meeting his one true peer, Piper fighting for the honor of his son, Commissioner Piper going up against the Hogan Mafia). Why? Because both could act. And had great, definable characters.

That's what Orton needs. Not to have a technically good match with HBK. Hell, anyone can do it with HBK. He needs to have a good story that develops his character. "Randy Orton: good worker" isn't nearly as important as becoming "Randy Orton: Someone people care about."

The standards of fans have gone up somewhat. I mean, fans WILL chant "BORING!" if they're bored, but I've found that the reactions of the live fans mean about as much as anything WWE puts on TV in recent years.

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 6.9.03 0905)
madiq
Boerewors








Since: 27.7.03
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 2352 days
Last activity: 2345 days
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#20 Posted on
But here's my problem with your argument - It comes from the land of "paying dues":

Why should Randy Orton be in the main event in the first place?

While I would agree that technical masterpieces do not make a main eventer, they do make for successful midcarders. Thus, Benoit, Guerrero, Jericho, etc remained typically over, even as they were forgotten by the bookers and their characters stagnated. Quality ringwork set the foundation, a minimum bar of overness if you will... Any main event push, even if aborted or failed, only brings the wrestler back to that same equilibrium point.

But with Orton, he has no rapport with fans based upon his ringwork. We don't get good thoughts when Randy Orton has an announced match because we think he'll impress us in the ring. At most, we anticipate Evolution shenanighans involving Main Eventers, which piques our interest. Therefore, any push for Randy predicated on this shaky ground needs extra mustard. Otherwise, when he fails, he becomes "damaged goods," like the Big Show for most of his WWE tenure.

Listen, I want Randy to succeed, not because of any affinity for the young man, but because ANY freshness and future on the RAW brand would be something to look forward to. If they can sacrifice some of these OverTheHillers to the 3rd Generation Guy to make him a star, I say so be it. If they want to form a young version of the Four Horsemen to keep the World Title around his waist while deserving veterans are screwed en route to being reestablished as a threat, I say go for it, as it is preferable to HHH damaging over guys' pushes, then beating them cleanly to the Pedigree, like they were members of the Heenan Family falling victim to the Big Boot-Legdrop combo.

And if Evolution can be a springboard for Maven, once again, I'm for it; Batista as well. (ideally, I'd go with Flair as the mentor, with Orton playing the leader/Flair role, Batista playing the enforcer/Goldberg clone, and Maven playing the cocky wildcard/faux-Rock) However, ALL of these guys have to impress us with their ringwork, and get us into their matches. In short, they have be be believable midcarders first, before just shooting to the "Next Level."
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Ya know, his routine would be funny if he did the half black thing when he wrestled Bad News Brown that one time (I think it was during Summerslam). Now THAT would be good comedy.
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