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24.4.14 0853
The W - Guest Columns - Evocator Manes' "IN DEFENSE OF AUSTIN"
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Scorpio
Boudin rouge








Since: 18.2.02
From: Laurel, MD, USA

Since last post: 3682 days
Last activity: 3633 days
#1 Posted on

Wow, nine paragraphs of painting Debra as the bad guy in the scenario. That's pretty impressive. Not to mention, again, the fact that he hit her in the back, and more than once.

That section kind of covers up the other good points you made elsewhere in the article.




PMMJ

"Nothing remains interesting where anything may happen." -H.G. Wells

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Debaser
Mettwurst








Since: 22.3.02

Since last post: 4273 days
Last activity: 4238 days
#2 Posted on
As blase as I've become over the righteous indignation people have heaped on Austin from the safety of their computers (I've been guilty of this myself, to a lesser extent), this guy says nothing of note. If your entire argument is based around a specific hypothetical set of circumstances that only fit the facts moderately well, you should probably give up and start again.

Re: The walkout.

Before I learned of the rest, I thought maybe Austin decide his laegacy and kayfabe reputation as essentially unbeatable was worth more to him than future income, and he made the self-conscious, rational decision to forcibly end his career. If he did, then good for him. But what we've seen since hasn't been indicitive of a self-conscious, rational man.

Re: Debra

He's right. We don't know the situation. We don't know with certainty if this was a one time act of a drunken, self-destructing but good at heart human being or another step in a systematic cycle of abuse from a drunken redneck whose gimmick is closer to home than anyone expected. We really have no particular reason to assume one way or another. But the action is still indefensible. And saying we don't know the facts then dedicating a paragraph to your own personal portrait of Austin as a flawed hero (a picture no more based on the facts than any other), is a grave tactical error.

And, obviously, the Grutman obviously wasn't, fool. He was pissed and he wrote a column before he really had a chance to calm down, but even then it was more just a feel good fantasy than something he was seriously considering doing.

(edited by Debaser on 21.6.02 1439)
Texas Kelly
Lap cheong








Since: 3.1.02
From: FOREST HILLS CONTROLS THE UNIVERSE

Since last post: 15 days
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#3 Posted on
To me, Mr. Manes is trying to make one singular point with this piece. It's simply that we cannot judge Austin's latest actions by making any assumptions. We can only judge Austin based on exactly what we know about him.

Guess what? He's damn right.

We know that he changed the face of wrestling forever and that he (unlike JPL and the rest of the Clique-blowhards) deserves a bit of clout in the business. We don't know why he walked out. We don't know why he refused to come back. We don't know why he assaulted Debra.

Austin's no hero. He's an Everyman like you and me with a gift. All this author is doing is making us think: We all assume things happened one way. It's damned possible that they happened another way. There are a myriad of ways this thing could have turned out.

Bottom line: Don't bury the man based on what you don't know.



Being The Bookerman (No Way Out)
Grading The Bookerman (No Way Out)
Worship Your God And Mine

CRZ NOTABLE QUOTABLE OF THE MONTH:
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-- WWF Smackdown, 9/9/99

Debaser
Mettwurst








Since: 22.3.02

Since last post: 4273 days
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#4 Posted on

    Originally posted by Texas Kelly
    We know that he changed the face of wrestling forever and that he (unlike JPL and the rest of the Clique-blowhards) deserves a bit of clout in the business. We don't know why he walked out. We don't know why he refused to come back.


We know why he walked out essentially: He didn't like the way he was being booked. There may have been other factors, we don't know for certain what specifically he objected to (although we've got plenty of indications), but ultimately he walked out because of the way he was booked.

By the by: demanding "don't judge because you don't know everything" and then referencing the HHH conspiracy theory in the same sentence is also a grave tactical error.


We don't know why he assaulted Debra.


Unless she's secretly a Taliban agent or pulled a gun on him or something, does it really matter why? Someone Austin's size shouldn't beat up someone Debra's size. Few things are simple. That is.



Austin's no hero. He's an Everyman like you and me with a gift. All this author is doing is making us think: We all assume things happened one way. It's damned possible that they happened another way. There are a myriad of ways this thing could have turned out.

Bottom line: Don't bury the man based on what you don't know.



First off, I can assure you Austin is nothing like me. I'm a 150 city boy with a good education and no work ethic. I couldn't beat up a woman if I wanted to, but I'm still man enough not to drink light beer. Second off, no one's ever posed grand scenarios of the details of the situation. We know with near certainty that he beat up Debra. We know with absolute certainty that he walked out on the WWE and refused to deal with them. No one is basing any of their arguments on anything less certain than these two facts.
J.T. Dutch
Pickled pork








Since: 3.1.02
From: SoCal 4 Life

Since last post: 2490 days
Last activity: 750 days
Y!:
#5 Posted on
To Evocator Manes ...

Thank you for writing EXACTLY what I have felt about why Austin walked out on the McMahons and the utterly pathetic operation they have going at this particular time.

I actually feel like somewhat of a prophet in that I essentially stopped watching WWF programming before the name change, before the unbelievably stupid decision to put the strap on Hogan, and as such, before Austin did what he had to do.

The current name of the company is erroneous; the McMahon group should come correct and refer to themselves as what they have become: WCW. At this point, they should complete the Nitro-like feel by firing Lawler, Tazz, and Cole; replacing them with Schiavone, Tenay, and Zbyzsko. If they're going to emulate something as terrible as WCW, they should go all the way.

Austin is absolutely right in his decision. Hell, he wouldn't have been able to rescuscitate the WWF if he hadn't left WCW to do it. Well, now he's simply parting ways with WCW once again. He's a very intelligent and experienced individual within his field. He sees the writing on the wall. He knows in his mind and heart that if the McMahon group truly cared about his input or his character's direction, they would have come to HIM. That they did not speaks volumes. For Austin to say anything before walking away would have been redundant and pointless.

As for the situation between Austin and his wife Debra, I can't really comment either way because I don't know anything about their life outside of what they choose to reveal. It's a terrible situation for both of them to be in, and I hope that they can get help and find the answers together. Absolutely one of the toughest things (if not THE toughest thing) to do in life is for an individual to be together with another person, in a loving relationship under the same roof, and try to make all of that work alongside the other things that are expected of an individual throughout his or her life. It's just damn difficult.

I'm sorry to see the Stone Cold character come to an (apparent) end. I liked that character ... a LOT. Same thing goes for the Hitman character, or the Macho Man character. But the people who portray these characters have real lives to live, too, with real people involved. I can understand where things can go wrong, where problems can occur, and I also understand that they can't just blurt out a catchphrase and go behind a curtain in those instances. They have to work them out. I hope that Steve and Debra can work this out -- I'm pulling for them.

(edited by J.T. Dutch on 24.6.02 0041)


"Puttin' some stink on it!!"
J.T. Dutch
ges7184
Lap cheong








Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

Since last post: 17 days
Last activity: 3 days
#6 Posted on
I don't care about the why's? Every single thing in Evocator Manes' article could have happened exactly as he said it happened, and it wouldn't excuse Austin's actions or make it more right (I'm tired of seeing that stupid Chris Rock statement "I'm not saying he should have done it, but I understand". What the hell does that mean? Is that a "Get out of jail free" card for debate? A way to take Austin's side AND say what he did was wrong?)

Austin can't walk out. He's under contract. He could have negotiated an out-clause if he had liked, but apparently didn't. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter what was on the booking sheet, the WWE wasn't asking him to do anything that they hadn't asked him to do in the past. As long as it was within realms of the contract, he doesn't have grounds to walk out on the contract. Can he question the bookers? Sure. He can communicate the problem he has, suggest changes, all that. But he has to remember someone else is paid to make the final decision. The only way I'll ever think Austin was right to walk out was if I see this: "Austin's contract said that he had (some) creative control over his character" or "Austin was asked to set up the ring, then work the concession stand" I'm sorry, but otherwise I don't care if the booking sheet said "Brooklyn Brawler over Austin", he should have performed. It doesn't even matter how much money he made the company. Austin WAS compensated for his duties. If it wasn't enough, Austin should have negotiated for more when his contract was last up. (If you're going to take your ball and go home, THAT'S when it's OK to do it)

Now, if Austin wanted to retire, then he probably could have. There is a right way to do things though, and it doesn't include suddenly walking out. (I mean, didn't Mick Foley leave because he wasn't happy with things? Wasn't he allowed to do so?) Of course retire means retire, not retire and go to the NWA-TNA.

As far as his wife goes, once again, I really don't care why. Only way it could pass is if Debra was a threat to Austin's well-being. Otherwise, I just don't see it. Basically the scenerio presented is "Debra nagged and nagged, so bitch deserved to be hit". Doesn't fly with me? Way too many options to take out frustration besides "hit the wife". In fact, hitting the wife SHOULDN'T be an option at all. I would NEVER do it. He considered as an option and that says something about him in my book. And keep in mind, the report stated that he hit her multiple times, even on her back. It wasn't a one and done flash of anger just to create space.

The only good point, one that could of been made without the whole made-up speculative story, was about the internet writers talking about creating a mob to go after Austin. But I think most people know that internet writers are full of crap. That's just their way of saying they don't like what Austin has done. They say lot's of things they don't do. They are just trying to write things they think will create an interesting read.

Bottomline, Austin did some things wrong (and I don't understand), and has to live with the consequences of his actions (and even if he's right, he still has to live with the consequences of his actions, actions have consequences). That means being off TV for a while without pay. And I don't mind that. That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy Austin while he was on, and that I couldn't enjoy him again. But I just don't see that as being too severe of a penalty for his actions. There are worse people than Austin, (and they will pay worse consequences) Austin will be OK.
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 28 days
Last activity: 15 days
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42

    Originally posted by ges7184
    I'm tired of seeing that stupid Chris Rock statement "I'm not saying he should have done it, but I understand". What the hell does that mean? Is that a "Get out of jail free" card for debate? A way to take Austin's side AND say what he did was wrong?


It's a way of saying "What he did was wrong. I wouldn't have done it myself, because I don't do wrong things, but I can't hold others to standards as high as the ones I hold myself to. So I can excuse his stupid act."



Mean Gene: "You know, I don't think it's a question - Goldberg, I don't think it's a question of who's next, I think it's a question of who's left?"
Goldberg: "No, see, that's where you're wrong. It ain't who's left, it's - WHO'S NEXT?"

"Just how hardcore am I? Well this morning, I drank milk that was two days past the expiration!"
-Norman Smiley

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-Stevie Ray
ges7184
Lap cheong








Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

Since last post: 17 days
Last activity: 3 days
#8 Posted on
Er, OK. The way I feel is this: "What he did is wrong", therefore he has to pay the consequence. You can't "excuse" it, and let it go without consequences. Of course, the consequence should fit the action. Austin shouldn't get the chair for what he done. However, things like that can knock a career a peg or two back. It's just how things work. If I do something wrong (everyone does something wrong every once in a while), I too pay the consequences.

There are certain standards we are ALL held to, like it or not.
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 28 days
Last activity: 15 days
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
I agree. I said that mocking the attitude of people who say things like that.



Mean Gene: "You know, I don't think it's a question - Goldberg, I don't think it's a question of who's next, I think it's a question of who's left?"
Goldberg: "No, see, that's where you're wrong. It ain't who's left, it's - WHO'S NEXT?"

"Just how hardcore am I? Well this morning, I drank milk that was two days past the expiration!"
-Norman Smiley

"She is one of them! She's CANADIAN!"
-Stevie Ray
stonedbudman
Medisterpoelse








Since: 20.6.02
From: va

Since last post: 4323 days
Last activity: 4227 days
#10 Posted on
Well let's look at it like this.He fucked up but he was geting fuck by vince.He was becoming a jobber.It don't excuse what he did but,he ought to get some respect.They take hogan and but him on a mountain he is sooo dead.As for wrestling i'm about done.It ain't like it was.I remember when it kept you guessing now it's so lame.
El Nastio
Andouille








Since: 14.1.02
From: Ottawa Ontario, by way of Walkerton

Since last post: 14 days
Last activity: 1 hour
ICQ:  
#11 Posted on

    Originally posted by stonedbudman
    Well let's look at it like this.He fucked up but he was geting fuck by vince.He was becoming a jobber.It don't excuse what he did but,he ought to get some respect.They take hogan and but him on a mountain he is sooo dead.As for wrestling i'm about done.It ain't like it was.I remember when it kept you guessing now it's so lame.



Austin becoming a jobber?! he REFUSED to job to anyone for the longest while. I actually stopped wacthing his matches oncebecause of this.



As a Light-Heavyweight, I'm proud that I'm entitled to weekly boasts on Fridays about how I'm going to be pushed to the moon. So far I've been main eventing "Metal", a B-Level show. Those silly Cruiserweights who think that a couple of mentions in the Ross Report makes them all that. They really believe that THEY'LL be getting OUR pimps from the Ross Report abou....huh?! A new show called "Velocity"?....WHAT DO YOU MEAN METAL GOT CANCELLED?!

__________!
SC
Potato korv








Since: 11.12.01
From: Valparaiso, IN

Since last post: 1145 days
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#12 Posted on
(deleted by ScottChrist on 11.8.04 1557)
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1805 days
Last activity: 1739 days
#13 Posted on
Scott, that was quite possibly the oddest post I ever read. Thank you.






Old School's Film Quote O' The Week-"Five-foot-nine, I didn't know they stacked shit that high"-R. Lee Ermey as Gunnery Sgt. Hartman, Full Metal Jacket. He obviously hasn't met Tazz.

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