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The W - Sports that aren't Baseball, Football, Basketball, or Hockey - Euro 2012 (Page 2)
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pieman
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.30


I was rooting for Italia, but winning in a shootout is still the dumbest way to end games.







JayJayDean
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.14
    Originally posted by pieman
    I was rooting for Italia, but winning in a shootout is still the dumbest way to end games.


Fans of the Three Lions might argue that LOSING on PKs is the dumbest way to end a game.

Maybe it is a recent thing due to advances in video technology allowing teams to study players and their tendencies, and maybe it is due to a small sample size, but I'm all-in on PKs after the Champions League final and now ENG/ITA. In both cases the team that took the early advantage ultimately lost, and if it has progressed past "first mistake always loses" then that good enough for me.



Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

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Revenge of the Sith = one thumb up from me. Fuck shit. I want to tittie fuck your ass.
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TheBucsFan
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.47
Petr Cech said before the Champions League final that he felt pretty prepared after studying the penalty habits of Bayern Munich's players pretty thoroughly, should it go to a shootout, and when the time came he guessed correctly on all six penalties (the five in the shootout, plus Robben's in extra time). He didn't save them all, but he went the right way every time, saved two in the shootout (again, plus Robben's in extra time), and I think got a hand on two others but just couldn't keep them out. That, for the first time really, convinced me that shootouts are about more than just keeping a cool head under pressure.

Anyway, I see why it kind of sucks to decide a soccer game with something that isn't exactly soccer, but until someone proposes something that is both better and practical, I'm OK with it. Players can't play indefinitely - often as it is, the last period of extra time is pretty boring because the players are either exhausted or cramping up, or both. Rescheduling and replaying a game is fine for early-round FA Cup clashes, but it's too much of a logistical nightmare for bigger contests, especially international fixtures. And golden goal I personally hate, but doesn't really address the problem anyway, because games are still going to come down to penalties sometimes.

Also, I have to agree with dMr, I don't think Spain have looked that great, though MoeGates is hardly the only person I've seen saying otherwise. More possession doesn't always mean awesome, and less possession doesn't always mean bad. Spain are great at passing the ball around on the outside of the perimeter of the penalty area, but like Barcelona have recently looked pretty tame against a disciplined defense that is content to let them do just that. Both Barca and Spain miss David Villa a lot. I think it will be a Germany/Portugal final.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 25.6.12 1351)
Captain Ferret
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Since: 14.9.02
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#24 Posted on
The only sensible alternative to penalty shootouts are replays, and you are never going to see replays at World Cups/continental club competitions.
CRZ
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.39
    Originally posted by Captain Ferret
    The only sensible alternative to penalty shootouts are replays, and you are never going to see replays at World Cups/continental club competitions.
It's possible I'm missing something in the translation from your English to my English, but how would a replay break a tie?



Spank E
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
    Originally posted by Captain Ferret
    The only sensible alternative to penalty shootouts are replays, and you are never going to see replays at World Cups/continental club competitions.


Except if that replay is goalless and we're right back where we started.

I always thought Silver Goal was the better alternative.



TheBucsFan
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.47
    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by Captain Ferret
      The only sensible alternative to penalty shootouts are replays, and you are never going to see replays at World Cups/continental club competitions.
    It's possible I'm missing something in the translation from your English to my English, but how would a replay break a tie?


He means replay the game. That was the typical means to settle draws in cup finals and such before things like the away goals rule and penalty shootouts were introduced. That's still how the FA Cup (and, I presume, other cup tournaments in countries I don't pay attention to) matches before the semifinal are settled - if the first leg is a draw, the teams play again in the other team's venue, then it goes to penalties if that second fixture is a draw again.
Captain Ferret
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#28 Posted on
    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by Captain Ferret
      The only sensible alternative to penalty shootouts are replays, and you are never going to see replays at World Cups/continental club competitions.
    It's possible I'm missing something in the translation from your English to my English, but how would a replay break a tie?


Sorry, different cultural norms and that. What TheBucsFan said. Back in ye olden days, they would have multiple replayed games *wistful reminisce*

    Originally posted by Spank E
      Originally posted by Captain Ferret
      The only sensible alternative to penalty shootouts are replays, and you are never going to see replays at World Cups/continental club competitions.


    Except if that replay is goalless and we're right back where we started.

    I always thought Silver Goal was the better alternative.


The Golden/Silver goal lead to teams (who were, admittedly tired by then) trying not to concede, rather than trying to score.

(edited by Captain Ferret on 25.6.12 2321)
thecubsfan
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Since: 10.12.01
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.28



      I always thought Silver Goal was the better alternative.


    The Golden/Silver goal lead to teams (who were, admittedly tired by then) trying not to concede, rather than trying to score.

    (edited by Captain Ferret on 25.6.12 2321)


It doesn't seem that much different now. Teams tend to prefer chancing it shootout rather than risk a bad counter attack in overtime.



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TheBucsFan
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.47
I always read online the argument that teams play more defensively with the golden goal rule in play, but I've never seen figures to back that claim up (and I wasn't paying much more than cursory attention to soccer during the period in the late 1990s and early 2000s when it was in use, so as an observer I have little to judge it by). The golden goal was used in the 1996 and 2000 European Championships, and the 1998 and 2002 World Cups. Also, the silver goal was used in the 2004 Euros. Here, then, is a tally of the number of extra time games in these tournaments dating back to 1996; the number in parentheses is the number of games that went to a shootout. It's a small sample, admittedly, so infer from it what you may:

1996 Euros (golden goal): 5(4)
1998 World Cup (golden goal): 4(3)
2000 Euros (golden goal): 3(1)
2002 World Cup (golden goal): 5(2)
2004 Euros (silver goal): 3(2)
2006 World Cup: 6(4)
2008 Euros: 3(2)
2010 World Cup: 4(2)
2012 Euros so far: 1(1)

So golden goal and silver goal saw 20 extra time games, and 12 of them (60 percent) required penalties to settle the matter. Conventional extra time since reverting back to it has happened 14 times, with nine of them (65 percent) going to penalties. Also, it's worth pointing out that I don't think any of the games that went to shootouts under the conventional method saw both teams score in extra time - that is to say, golden goal or silver goal wouldn't have prevented penalties in those instances.

I personally don't like golden goal because I don't see one goal suddenly ending the match to be much more faithful to the nature of the game than penalties are. But based on these numbers and my own instincts, I'm not sure I buy that one method is more likely to inspire teams to play defensively and settle for a spotkicks than the other is.
dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.27
I was curious enough about the Golden Goal stuff TheBucsFan posted to have a look and see if there were any cases where both teams scored in extra time since we went back to a straight 30 minutes. There were two - England v Portugal in '04 and Croatia v Turkey in '08. That brings you to 50% where extra time was goalless vs 60% where golden or silver goal was used. Still a small sample, and one extra game going scoreless brings the figures pretty level so not a huge difference.

I will say, watching the games it FELT like teams were being more defensive under Golden Goal, but that could be me mis-remembering and my perception was doubtless swayed by commentators going on about how defensive teams were being. Either way, interesting stuff (to me anyway).

FWIW, I like penalties. It's a reasonable test of skill under pressure, it's exciting and I don't see a better alternative. Anyone who thinks it's just a lottery really only need watch Pirlo's pen the other night to dissuade them of that notion.

dMr
Andouille








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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.27
(deleted by dMr on 26.6.12 1833)
TheBucsFan
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.47
I knew not looking at every individual game would mean I was wrong about that. England/Portugal I missed because it was actually played under silver goal rules, but both goals were scored in the second half of extra time, so it was effectively the same as the traditional extra time. Turkey and Croatia I just missed though.

Anyway, it's possible you're right; like I said, I wasn't really watching the sport much at the time, so all I have to go by are goal tallies and of course those don't always paint the whole picture. I just feel like right now most extra time periods I see are more defensive than the regular 90 minutes, and the closer it gets to penalties the more true that is, so if that really was even more the case with the golden goal, I can see why that would be frustrating.
JayJayDean
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.14
I know it doesn't count, because - girls - but in the 2011 Women's World Cup the USA Women played extra time with each team scoring TWICE, first against Brazil in the quarters and then against Japan in the final.



Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

*snip*

Revenge of the Sith = one thumb up from me. Fuck shit. I want to tittie fuck your ass.
-- The Guinness. to Cerebus
TheBucsFan
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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.47
    Originally posted by dMr
    I was curious enough about the Golden Goal stuff TheBucsFan posted to have a look and see if there were any cases where both teams scored in extra time since we went back to a straight 30 minutes. There were two - England v Portugal in '04 and Croatia v Turkey in '08. That brings you to 50% where extra time was goalless vs 60% where golden or silver goal was used. Still a small sample, and one extra game going scoreless brings the figures pretty level so not a huge difference.

    I will say, watching the games it FELT like teams were being more defensive under Golden Goal, but that could be me mis-remembering and my perception was doubtless swayed by commentators going on about how defensive teams were being. Either way, interesting stuff (to me anyway).

    FWIW, I like penalties. It's a reasonable test of skill under pressure, it's exciting and I don't see a better alternative. Anyone who thinks it's just a lottery really only need watch Pirlo's pen the other night to dissuade them of that notion.




I've been spending way too much time thinking about this the past two days. So you made me reconsider: Silver goal is probably more like conventional extra time than it is golden goal, and so the 2004 Euros should probably be lumped with the former rather than the latter in my figures. If you do it that way, it means there have been 17 golden goal extra time games, with 10 going to penalties, and 17 conventional extra time games, with 11 going to penalties (including two that wouldn't have gone to penalties had golden goal been in place).

Or, you could consider silver goal a totally separate thing, and have 10/17 golden goal games going to spotkicks, 9/14 conventional extra time games going to spotkicks, and 2/3 silver goal games going to the shootout.

I don't think those numbers will really change anyone's opinion (and I think we're in agreement anyway), but I'm a sucker for completeness and may want to reference these numbers again sometime, so thought I'd clarify.

In case anyone's curious, the only game in the 2004 Euros that actually was decided by a silver goal was Greece's 1-0 win over the Czech Republic in the semifinal, when a goal in stoppage time of the first half of extra time sent the Greeks to the final.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 26.6.12 1624)
MoeGates
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#36 Posted on
Well, Spain is starting to look mortal. If they play like they did, they're going to have trouble against Germany, or even Italy. I think they'll still win though.

They most telling thing, I think, is that despite not being at their best, when defending, instead of just taking the first chance to clear like a normal team, they would still try and win control of the ball and then play tiki-taka right in front of their goal. This is nerve-wracking to just watch as a fan - to continually do it in an international elimination game against Cristiano Ronaldo speaks to an astounding level of confidence. This is why Spain's going to win the tournament (and World Cup 2014). Their game is just on a different level. Usually teams that play possession football like that concede getting caught on the counterattack, but Spain always snuffs it. Not only have they not conceded a goal in four games, their opponents have only gotten 10 shots, and Iker Casillas has only had to make 5 saves, during that time. Spain gives up one or two real chances a game. Even against that best teams, that a 90% chance you keep a clean sheet. Even without a real goal threat, it's hard to lose like that.



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JayJayDean
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.14
I am still agog that down 3-2 in the bottom of the 4th frame of the shootout Portugal didn't turn to Ronaldo. I understand the whole "best player = game closer" math in theory, but I was sure he would go if only to make sure if there was a miss and Spain could close it out he wouldn't be sitting there having not had a chance.



Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

*snip*

Revenge of the Sith = one thumb up from me. Fuck shit. I want to tittie fuck your ass.
-- The Guinness. to Cerebus
TheBucsFan
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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.48
That was really astonishing. Personally, with the benefit of hindsight, I think Ronaldo should have stepped up as soon as Xabi Alonso missed that first one. But he definitely shouldn't have waited to go fifth. Nani rushed up and displaced Alves, so obviously the predetermined order was flexible, Ronaldo just decided to wait for a time when he could take the winning kick. It was arrogant and selfish, and it cost him and his team. Though given Ronaldo's recent history in shootouts with Real Madrid, it's no guarantee he would have made it.

I'm disappointed Portugal lost because Spain have been boring me to death in this tournament. Steve McManaman put it well: Spain's style works great for Barcelona, because Barcelona has Messi to go on these brilliant runs with or without the ball to wreak havoc in the middle of the defense. Spain don't seem to have that person, and so they just end up passing the ball all over the park with no real objective other than passing the ball all over the park. People shit on the defensive tactics employed by Chelsea in the Champions League semifinal and final, but personally I found either one of those games to be infinitely more exciting than today's Spain/Portugal game.
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
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#39 Posted on
Jesus Navas and Pedro were making runs today (although Pedro just could not seem to pull the trigger like a real striker would), and Iniesta and Fabregas, while not being Messi, are capable of moments of individual brilliance. I don't see how anyone can say any technique used buy a team that's on the verge of winning three major international tournaments in a row "isn't working."

EDIT: Also - I do not understand why Del Bosque is not using Fernando Llorente. Spain (especially Jordi Alba) has had no trouble getting to the touch line and getting crosses in, they just have had no targets. Llorente may be too flat-footed to play tiki-taka with the guys, but just park him up on the shoulder of the last defender and let him go after crosses. At the very least he'll draw defenders and open space.

(edited by MoeGates on 27.6.12 2216)


www.allcitynewyork.com
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.49
    Originally posted by MoeGates
    Jesus Navas and Pedro were making runs today


Yep, clearly what I said was Spain's players were standing around idly. You got me!


    "isn't working."


I sat here for a second trying to think of a way to snidely ask why putting quotation marks around words excuses a super literal interpretation when that clearly wasn't intended, but then I realized, I didn't actually say what you put in quotation marks anyway. If you think advancing via a shootout after a goalless draw means this Spain team is just as good as the one that won the World Cup, you're entitled to your opinion. But I think most people would agree with me when I say that they aren't playing at the same level. Germany will in my mind be big favorites to win if it's them and Spain in the final based on the way the two teams have been playing. Italy/Spain would be a tossup for me.

And besides, the argument I actually made is that Spain have been boring. Winning the whole tournament won't change that.


    Also - I do not understand why Del Bosque is not using Fernando Llorente. Spain (especially Jordi Alba) has had no trouble getting to the touch line and getting crosses in, they just have had no targets. Llorente may be too flat-footed to play tiki-taka with the guys, but just park him up on the shoulder of the last defender and let him go after crosses. At the very least he'll draw defenders and open space.


But wait, I thought what Spain has been doing has been "working." Why would they do anything different?

(edited by TheBucsFan on 27.6.12 2238)
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When I was younger, his name was just something to snicker about. As I got older and became a casual race fan (as well as having some friends that are pretty hardcore fans)
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