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The W - Baseball - Et tu, Ortiz?
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Reverend J Shaft
Liverwurst








Since: 25.6.03
From: Home of The Big House

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.37
Hoo boy.

Ortiz and Ramirez Said to Be on 2003 Doping List

I can practically hear the Yankees' fans stampeding to comment on this one.
Promote this thread!
haz
Landjager








Since: 2.1.02
From: Whitby, Ontario, Canada

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.70
This is why it would be smarter for MLB to release all of the results from that year. Otherwise we are going to have the "sudden" release of players from now until the end of time...

Releasing it once gets all the surprise and outrage over with and the issue will die once and for all.

The way things are now we get the whole steroid issue dragged out every few months just to remind people how rampant it was and also to make us listen to all the Sports Radio windbags talk about it again... (I wonder who else is on the list?, Did he really do it?, ugh)



Look what you did

Is this who you wanted me to be?

Well it's not me

Super Shane Spear
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Sector 7 Slums

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.72
Have we gone through all the big suspects now?

I'm still waiting for Luis Gonzalez, but I figure that's more of a local thing.



You should listen to what I listen to
It's False
Scrapple








Since: 20.6.02
From: I am the Tag Team Champions!

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.78
That sound you hear is Bill Simmons repeatedly slamming a car door on his head.




"So listen up boy, or pornography starring your mother will be the second worst thing that happens to you today."
BoromirMark
Potato korv








Since: 8.5.02
From: Milan-Ann Arbor, MI

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.35
    Originally posted by Reverend J Shaft
    I can practically hear the Yankees' fans stampeding to comment on this one.


Well, it was a Yankees fan who broke the story.

He gave an over-the-phone interview on the noon-time Sportscenter. The second he was asked about what impact he thinks the story will have on baseball and the past, he *immediately* said "Finally there are Boston players under the steroid light, as opposed to the Yankees who have been slammed over and over and over again."

Really? It's nice to know that the NY Times has given up any pretense of unbiased journalism, whether political or sports. You combine this with the fact, as he stated in the same interview, that the only way to get names from this list is for a reporter to dig and claw and scratch and basically wrest these names out of the jaws-of-life and it just screams of a rival fanbase striking back because they're butt-hurt. Getting even just one name from the list is a ton of work, by his own admission. So he didn't go through all that to unearth the whole list, he didn't research the story to bring steroid users into the light, he did it because the poor widdle Yankees had to deal with more steroid issues than the Red Sox.

Which is all just more reason to release the whole friggin' list. If we don't, all we're going to get is this piecemeal approach in which only select names driven by a writer's agenda will get plucked out. That doesn't serve any anti-steroid platform, or improving baseball platform; it only serves the writers and the talking-heads who want readers and listeners.

(edited by BoromirMark on 30.7.09 1650)



Michigan against the SEC: 20-5-1 (7-3 in bowl games)

Lexus
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.44
Yankee fan here. While it's not entirely surprising to hear about Big Sloppy (learned that one from a lifelong Boston fan) and Manny, there may be a few names on that list from 2003 that were/are wearing the pinstripes, and I mean other than A-Rod (he was still in Texas at the time), Pettitte, Giambi (who've admitted, don't know if they're on the list), and probably Clemens (who hasn't admitted, although certainly marred). If I was going to say anything to the 'Nation', it'd be that it palls in comparison to the Empire, and how does it feel to be back where you belong in second place (and I just did).

This list should be entirely put forth by baseball, for the good of baseball, to get the doubts out of fans minds of certain players, and to confirm the suspicions of others.

No other alternatives. I heard a friend say mandatory drug testing a part of the World Baseball Classic. Guys don't show up, either they don't have the chutzpah to play for their country or are doping, and it wouldn't make it any less interesting; the Japanese national team has won it on finesse and savvy, playing good baseball, not power. This, of course, just leads to even more speculation over guys who might want to save their arms or their swing for the season.

At this point, the only (notable superstar) guys in the majors I'm sold are not juicing are Ichiro, Prince Fielder, CC Sabathia, and Tim Lincecum.



"Laugh and the world laughs with you. Frown and the world laughs at you."
-Me.
RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.17
The way things are now we get the whole steroid issue dragged out every few months just to remind people how rampant it was and also to make us listen to all the Sports Radio windbags talk about it again... (I wonder who else is on the list?, Did he really do it?, ugh)

Yep.

Which is all just more reason to release the whole friggin' list. If we don't, all we're going to get is this piecemeal approach in which only select names driven by a writer's agenda will get plucked out. That doesn't serve any anti-steroid platform, or improving baseball platform; it only serves the writers and the talking-heads who want readers and listeners.

And yep. Piece-mailing this off, one by one, is the writers (and commentators) revenge for keeping their heads in the sand and telling everyone it's a juiced ball and not a juiced player for 10 years - despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. They got played for dummies and now it's payback time

The only way that the list gets full release is when they are done with the big names - like Gilligans' Island..."and the rest"

FLEA



Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high

"Learn to love yourself... for it is the greatest love of all" - Jeremy Borash 11:24 AM May 13th,2009
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.75
Tough to blame the NY Times for Yankees bias on this, although I love accusing them of it for many things. They do own 17% of the Red Sox.
Considering the running joke for Red Sox fans the first 2 months of the season when Ortiz sucked was for someone to give him the stuff he used to be on, so this isn't really shocking.
Didn't really seem to hurt Ortiz on the field, as he hit a game winning home run on the same day this story broke.
As for steroids/sports talk radio: It has now taken the place that Pete Rose occupied in the 90's: Something to break out on a slow day, interesting the first few times it was talked about, then becoming mind numbingly repetitive the 5,183rd time it was discussed.
Sec19Row53
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Oconomowoc, WI

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Y!:
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.95
    Originally posted by haz
    This is why it would be smarter for MLB to release all of the results from that year.

'Cept for the fact that MLB doesn't HAVE the list. Someone else does (MLBPA, lawyers - I don't recall).
thecubsfan
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    Tough to blame the NY Times for Yankees bias on this, although I love accusing them of it for many things. They do own 17% of the Red Sox.


Conspiracy theory of the day is NYT has finally been able to sell their percentage earlier this week (which I believe is true) and were holding back on this story until the sale was complete.



thecubsfan.com - luchablog
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 130 days
Last activity: 130 days
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.97
I only have one real opinion on this. Anyone shocked by this to the degree ESPN columnist Howard Bryant would like us to believe he is is an absolute moron:


    Think for a moment about faith. Not about baseball or the press, about the union or management, the home and away teams, all the stuff that seems so important but in truth really amounts to nothing. Such surface concerns melt away with the years, like snowdrifts in April.

    You have to go deeper than that to understand the meaning of the New York Times report that David Ortiz is one of the names who tested positive in the now-infamous 2003 performance-enhancing drug testing.

    You have to distill it further down, way down to the bones, to the basics, to the people you've met in this world and all the individual ingredients that comprise the concrete, the foundation -- the conviction in the eyes, the passion of the words, the firmness of the handshakes, all the devices designed to make you vulnerable, to make you believe.

    Dig down there, to where it counts. And when you get there, don't think about batting average, or the latest news about who tested positive for what, but about the mentality of the professional athletes who spend so much time and energy constructing an elaborate confidence game.


Give me a fucking break. How stupid can he be? Even if he did believe Ortiz was clean, is it really a shock to learn he was wrong? Again, if so he's a moron. An absolute moron. That is naivete to an incredible level.

Out of the group of Major League Baseball owners, MLB players, the MLB commissioner, media covering baseball and Jose Canseco, Canseco is by FAR the most credible source of information on anything steroids-related. And that is a BIG problem for everyone on that list who is not Canseco. Here Canseco spells out the assumption that EVERYONE should be operating under by now:


    "If you were in the game in the last 20 years, there's a 95 percent chance you were knowingly using something,'' Canseco said. "I said 80 percent back then because that was the number of players that I knew were on. But that number was greater.''


It would stand to reason that the likelihood is even greater among all-star level players. Accept it, figure out how to clean it up and move the fuck on. I can't stomach this feigned disbelief and loss of innocence every fucking time. It's impossible to take seriously.
TheOldMan
Landjager








Since: 13.2.03
From: Chicago

Since last post: 173 days
Last activity: 9 days
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.99
    Originally posted by Sec19Row53
    'Cept for the fact that MLB doesn't HAVE the list. Someone else does (MLBPA, lawyers - I don't recall).


IIRC, the list was originally from Donald Fehr's office at the MLBPA, which they got copied on the results from the 2003 "Let's see if there is even a problem here" testing. If the PLAYERS UNION had destroyed their own copy, there would have been no paper trail left. This document came to light during the congressional investigation into steroid use, and Waxman's(?) committee had the FBI grab it.

From there, who got leaked/snuck out a copy.. who is letting this information drizzle out at the most inconvenient times (the timing on revealing A-Rod seemed to be making a point) is unknown. I'm not even sure the MLBPA has a copy to release anymore, and they'd be the last people who would want the info out.



mountinman44
Sujuk








Since: 8.5.02
From: San Diego, CA

Since last post: 1309 days
Last activity: 1156 days
Y!:
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.03
    Originally posted by TheOldMan
      Originally posted by Sec19Row53
      'Cept for the fact that MLB doesn't HAVE the list. Someone else does (MLBPA, lawyers - I don't recall).


    IIRC, the list was originally from Donald Fehr's office at the MLBPA, which they got copied on the results from the 2003 "Let's see if there is even a problem here" testing. If the PLAYERS UNION had destroyed their own copy, there would have been no paper trail left. This document came to light during the congressional investigation into steroid use, and Waxman's(?) committee had the FBI grab it.

    From there, who got leaked/snuck out a copy.. who is letting this information drizzle out at the most inconvenient times (the timing on revealing A-Rod seemed to be making a point) is unknown. I'm not even sure the MLBPA has a copy to release anymore, and they'd be the last people who would want the info out.


I was just re-reading the SI.com article on the A-rod test, and the list was seized by the feds "as part of the government's investigation into 10 major league players linked to the BALCO scandal" in April 2004. It was sealed in a court order as part of that case.

MLB.com has a timeline of the fabled list.

(edited by mountinman44 on 30.7.09 2115)


"Speed has never killed anyone - suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you." - Jeremy Clarkson, Top Gear
It's False
Scrapple








Since: 20.6.02
From: I am the Tag Team Champions!

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.78
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    Out of the group of Major League Baseball owners, MLB players, the MLB commissioner, media covering baseball and Jose Canseco, Canseco is by FAR the most credible source of information on anything steroids-related. And that is a BIG problem for everyone on that list who is not Canseco. Here Canseco spells out the assumption that EVERYONE should be operating under by now:


That same link also has Canseco talking about an already-inducted Hall of Famer that used PED's.

It'd be too easy to guess Rickey Henderson, wouldn't it?




"So listen up boy, or pornography starring your mother will be the second worst thing that happens to you today."
Downtown Bookie
Morcilla








Since: 7.4.02
From: The Inner City, Now Living In The Country

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Last activity: 86 days
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.37
    Originally posted by It's False
    That same link also has Canseco talking about an already-inducted Hall of Famer that used PED's.

    It'd be too easy to guess Rickey Henderson, wouldn't it?

    Originally posted by Gwen Knapp / March 8, 2005
    For the record, though, none of the reporters who went to Barnes & Noble initiated the steroid talk. Canseco did that himself, hollering to Rickey Henderson's in-laws as they walked away from the table with three signed books: "That's one of the players who's not on steroids.''

    Rosalind Ono said she and her husband, Ed, lined up outside the store at 4 p.m. to see their son-in-law's former teammate. They entered first, with a cell phone connected to Henderson in Phoenix. They handed the phone to Canseco, who talked for a short time and then signed one of the Onos' books especially for Henderson: "To a great player, a friend.''

    The Onos stopped to talk to the media and vouched for the author. "One thing Rickey said is Jose does not lie,'' Rosalind Ono said.

    Several of his former teammates have said the same thing, although La Russa has vilified the man he managed during their glorious run in Oakland. Determined to protect the legacy of McGwire, who also played for La Russa when he broke the single-season home run record with St. Louis, the manager has said that Canseco had to resort to steroids because he wasn't willing to work hard enough.

For those interested, the full article may be found here (sfgate.com).



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StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.01
I fills me with great glee to know that the 'poor red sox' were just as corrupt as every other team that their fans cried about.
haz
Landjager








Since: 2.1.02
From: Whitby, Ontario, Canada

Since last post: 130 days
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.70
    Originally posted by Sec19Row53
      Originally posted by haz
      This is why it would be smarter for MLB to release all of the results from that year.

    'Cept for the fact that MLB doesn't HAVE the list. Someone else does (MLBPA, lawyers - I don't recall).



Loved the one call to the Buffalo Sports Radio station this morning. It's Roger Clemens that has the list. Anytime a story looks like it might pop up about him, he is going to release a name or two, just to get the hounds moving in another direction!!

I almost drove the car into the ditch! Funny....

Don't get me wrong, I am not at all surprised by anything with regards to steroids/drugs/cheating in sports anymore, but one would think both MLB and the MLBPA would want to put it behind them for good. It just can't be good for business to keep bringing it up again and again...



Look what you did

Is this who you wanted me to be?

Well it's not me

lotjx
Scrapple








Since: 5.9.08

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.39
It should shut up, Curt Shelling. I was a bit suspicious that the guy heading the first investigation was employed by the Red Sox and the two big names were Roger and Andy. Gee, I wonder how he missed Ortiz and Manny? The Feds probably won't release the list since it may corrupt any investigation they are doing in the steroid business. MLB is going to have a major decision down the road about the Hall of Fame. The procedure for it is already ridiculous, but now they will be forced to induct players from that era. Good thing, Jose like Rickey Hendersons.
BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.20
Anyone see what Bronson Arroyo had to say about his days of using? Interesting stuff, or maybe it's just refreshing to hear a player say something a little different.

Click Here (sports.espn.go.com)
i before e
Chorizo








Since: 17.10.03

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.27
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    I fills me with great glee to know that the 'poor red sox' were just as corrupt as every other team that their fans cried about.


It has been very interesting to see the difference in reactions to these players as opposed to the Yankee names. Although I can see how A-Rod garnered more reaction, since he is a heat magnet and a bigger star. What goes around comes around, and I have definitely read and heard a lot of backpedaling and convenient changes in stance on the whole steroids issue since "Poopy"(lol) and Manny have been named.

Does it taint their titles? Hell yes. As long as one single player from any of the teams they faced during those playoffs were clean, then the Sox had an unfair advantage (aside from the rumored sign stealing and such Patriots like shenanigans that I am sure happened).

The thing that makes me sickest of all is watching grown men being (or acting) shocked and hurt that a baseball player would do such a thing and defile the beloved sport of baseball by using PEDs. Grow up! If you don't believe every athlete in every sport is looking for a way to gain an edge over their fellow athletes you are truly an immature fool. These are the same idiots who cant grasp the concept that players and staff from rival teams get along and do business off the field. Its not for the child like concepts like pursuit of a title or personal glory that these players are juicing. Its simply because the difference between hitting, say, 20 HR and 25 home runs in a season is probably about 10 million dollars. Cheating = $$$ and as long as that's the case, players will always cheat.

I am only half joking when I say divide the record books into eras, since so many fans revere the precious 100+ year old records, and start the current "steroid era" at, say 1990. Then make it totally 100% legal to use steroids as a professional athlete. If these guys are willing to do these drugs and suffer the later consequences, I say let them. If it makes them hit the ball harder, run faster, jump higher etc. then it makes the game more entertaining. A MLB, NBA, NFL where everyone is juicing sounds like one hell of an entertaining league. Imagine 100 mph fastballs being the norm, 50 hr being the league average, players leaping over the wall to catch a ball, a triple crown winner narrowly edging out a rival by batting .380/87/235. Baseball fever, catch it!

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Not much of a history, huh? I guess this explains how you go 20 years without making the playoffs. I'd put Jim Gantner at 2B and move Molitor to 3B. I'd go with Higuera as the starter, and Dan Plesac as the reliever.
Related threads: Curt Schilling announces retirement - Jim Rice gets the call - Red Sox sign John Smoltz - More...
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