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The W - Random - Episode II (Page 4)
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J. Kyle
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Since: 21.2.02
From: The Land of Aloha

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#61 Posted on
A Star Wars Geek says:

I still think Yoda knows what is to come, but is following the will of the force in that it is Anakin's destiny to bring balance to the force and kill the Emperor, which is also why Obi became one with the force rather than killing Vader in Episode IV.

And only C3P0 loses memory! BAH! R2 remembers Kenobi! Someone listen because I know I'm not the only person who says this and yet everywhere people STILL ask about the droids' memories.

Qui Gon didn't disappear (IMHO) because he was unaturally killed. I think both Kenobi and Yoda became one with the force, giving up their bodies to reach the final stage of enlightenment, pushing Luke towards his final confrontation with Vader, where Papletine would be proved right as Anakin's feelings of love would show that they had NOT died and Anakin would kill Emperor to restore balance.



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ekedolphin
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Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

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#62 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.52

Hmm, you think Yoda knew? That's an intriguing possibility, as well. It would explain a great many things.

But somehow I can't believe that Yoda would allow hundreds of Jedi to be murdered just to fulfill a prophecy. I think he has an idea of what is to come, but does not yet realize the full implications of what is to come.

At least, that's my take.

About R2 remembering Kenobi... well... it's a possibility. But remember that R2 was under the influence of the instructions Leia had given him, and R2 seemingly remembering Kenobi might have been a side-effect of those instructions.

Threepio, I have no doubt, is either stupid or had his memory wiped sometime in Episode III or between III and IV.

EDIT: You know, I've been thinking about what has to make Anakin's heel turn absolutely complete. And bingo, I have the answer!

(Possible spoiler)...

You've been warned...

Turn back now if you don't want to know...




Dooku kills Padme! Then the whole “strike him down with all of your hatred” discussion takes place. Anakin, at Sidious' urging, strikes Dooku down with all of his hatred. Just like he did to the Tusken Raiders.

And his journey to the Dark Side is complete.

(edited by ekedolphin on 21.5.02 0601)


“Over the course of history, the kiss of a woman has poisoned a lot of great minds.”

--Arn Anderson, WCW Monday Nitro, 12/16/96

Support your local indy fed. Mine is WCWO.

Parts Unknown
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Darkenwood

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#63 Posted on

    Originally posted by ekedolphin
    Hmm, you think Yoda knew? That's an intriguing possibility, as well. It would explain a great many things.


Indeed. Think of the implications of this: it puts a whole new twist on the reason Obi Wan and Yoda were all "You must complete your training! You cannot go!" to Luke in ESB. Perhaps in some cosmic way they weren't really concerned about Luke (!) but they were just waiting for everything to come to fruition...everything goes into a crisis with the big Death Star battle and ONLY THEN is Anakin meant to take out the Emperor.
Also, maybe they really thought Luke had a chance of killing Vader, but they knew Vader needed to kill the emperor, so they deliberately prevented Luke from going. As you know, Luke's battle with Vader in Cloud City didn't exactly work out...for Luke anyway. But it DID work out because Vader lives to kill the Emperor.
Wow. Can of worms city baby.



YOU WANT A PIECE OF ME!?! - The immortal, chilling words of...The Shockmaster!
Papercuts!
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Since: 3.1.02
From: Springfield, Mo.

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#64 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Luke's (and Leia as a backup) sole purpose was to TURN VADER BACK. It was NOT to kill him. Only Luke could make Vader see there was some good left in him.

Remember what Yoda tells Luke about the future in ESB that it is difficult to see and always changing.



--Jason Baldwin
Writer of Stuff About Comic Books
SKLOKAZOID
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Since: 20.3.02
From: California

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#65 Posted on

    Originally posted by eviljonhunt81
    And was the fight at the end of Episode II the Clone Wars? If so, I'd hardly call that a war. Then again, there was not a phantom or much of a menace in Episode I.


"BEGUN... The Clone War has." -Yoda. KEYWORD: Begun.

The Phantom Menace was Palpatine/Sidious, who manipulated the situation so that he could ultimately attain power while befriending the Naboo & the Jedi. He was such a phantom menace, that nobody realized what he had done by the end of the movie and still not by the end of Episode II.
PalpatineW
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#66 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
For Mr. Papercuts -

Thanks for helping bring this thread back to something vaguely about the movie, for starters.

Secondly, though Owen asks Luke to get their memory wiped, it never happens. R2D2 escapes before it can, one thing leads to the next, and Uncle Owen ends up taking the dirtnap with Aunt Beru.

Uncle Owen ruled.

"He better have those units on the South range repaired by mid-day, or there'll be hell to pay."



The man's talking about logic. We're talking about universal Armageddon!
--Bones
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Since: 3.1.02
From: Springfield, Mo.

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#67 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    For Mr. Papercuts -
    Thanks for helping bring this thread back to something vaguely about the movie, for starters.

My pleasure. Seems to be somewhat of an anomaly with threads like this, though, eh? Now if we could just drop wrestling terms like "Tweener" and "Heel turn" from this discussion, I'd be a happy man.

    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    Secondly, though Owen asks Luke to get their memory wiped, it never happens.
Never said they did, nor did I mean to imply that. :)



--Jason Baldwin
Writer of Stuff About Comic Books
Freeway
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Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

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#68 Posted on
SPOILERS AHOY!

Okay, the entire six movie bi-trilogy's entire purpose is to show how far a person can fall, and what can bring them back.

Anakin's a flawed character. He's the "Chosen One", and he "will bring balance to the Force". How? At the beginning, there's nothing but 10,000 Jedi and 2 Sith. By the end of Return of the Jedi, there's 1 Jedi (Luke) and no Sith. Balance? Makes sense to me.

Yoda knew. He's a master of the Force, and has not resisted the teachings of the Force that the others before believed in. He disappeared/became one with the Force. So did Obi-Wan. So did Anakin. Why not Qui-Gon? Because he subscribed to the scientific version of the Force...



Holden: Judging by the buzz, that movie's gonna make some serious bank.
Jay: What buzz?
Holden: The internet buzz.
Jay: What the f*ck is the internet?
[Holden (Ben Affleck) & Jay (Jason Mewes) in Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back]
J. Kyle
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Since: 21.2.02
From: The Land of Aloha

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#69 Posted on
A Star Wars Geek says:

    Originally posted by Freeway420
    SPOILERS AHOY!

    Okay, the entire six movie bi-trilogy's entire purpose is to show how far a person can fall, and what can bring them back.

    Anakin's a flawed character. He's the "Chosen One", and he "will bring balance to the Force". How? At the beginning, there's nothing but 10,000 Jedi and 2 Sith. By the end of Return of the Jedi, there's 1 Jedi (Luke) and no Sith. Balance? Makes sense to me.

    Yoda knew. He's a master of the Force, and has not resisted the teachings of the Force that the others before believed in. He disappeared/became one with the Force. So did Obi-Wan. So did Anakin. Why not Qui-Gon? Because he subscribed to the scientific version of the Force...


YES! Someone understands what the hell I'm talking about! I'm not crazy! WOOOOO! Well I probably am, but at least I'm not alone.

(edited by AngryJohnny on 21.5.02 0603)
I'm a Cruiserweight, how do you lik... OH MY GOD I PUT ON WEIGHT!

VISIT SMARKTOWN!

****CRZ thought I was dead and left me at the bottom of a smoke stack. But now I reteurn as the Scarlet Smarker! Who is the real clone?****

dMp
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Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

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#70 Posted on
I was talking to a friend last night and he gave me the perfect reason why 3PO might not know Obi-Wan...

They never met!
In 1 3po is left on Tattooine.
In 2 3po walks up to Ani & Padme and asks 'do you know anyone named Obi-Wan? '
They never seem to bother explain to him who he is.
In the battle they never meet.
The droids leave soon after the battle with Anakin & Padme, and we don't know then if they ever meet before they left.

Ofcourse in episode 3 there is a chance they meet, but so far it all makes sense.
As for R2? Hey..who says the little bugger doesn't know?
Yet when he meets Luke, did he know who he was? did he ever meet him before? He was with Leia, so I don't think so. And for all I can tell Luke was poking around in his memory banks when the message of Leia came out. Who knows he already deleted half of his brain
So far there is nothing that suggests they SHOULD know Luke/Obi/the whole story..




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J. Kyle
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Since: 21.2.02
From: The Land of Aloha

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#71 Posted on
A Star Wars Geek says:

Hey dMp do you hear that? That's the sound of a thousand dorks like me screaming in agony after you hit us with a blinding flash of what should have been obvious. Seriously, that's the best damn explanation I've heard so far, thanks for bringing it to the table here.

(edited by AngryJohnny on 21.5.02 1556)
I'm a Cruiserweight, how do you lik... OH MY GOD I PUT ON WEIGHT!

MMPS Member

VISIT SMARKTOWN!

****CRZ thought I was dead and left me at the bottom of a smoke stack. But now I reteurn as the Scarlet Smarker! Who is the real clone?****

CactusJayC
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Since: 26.3.02
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#72 Posted on
Shouldn't C3-PO have remembered the name "Skywalker?" He WAS built by Anakin, afterall.

I mean, he was built by Darth freakin' Vader...

Plus, in Episode III, he said something along the lines of, "I've never heard of any Obi-Wan Kenobi."

Yeah, I'm reading into this too much.


(edited by CactusJayC on 22.5.02 0655)
"Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian." - Dennis Wholey (1937-)
Parts Unknown
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Darkenwood

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#73 Posted on
Cool. Perfect explanation of how the droids don't know Obi-Wan. Think about it: Obi-Wan was back at the ship the entire time Qui-Gonn and Co. were meeting Threepio on Tatooine. Right on.

Here's one that will really fry your grits, though. My wife of all people came up with it:

AIRC, in Empire Strikes Back, when Luke gets into the X-wing and leaves Dagobah to face Vader and save Han, spirit Obi-Wan and Yoda have a conversation.
If I'm correct, Obi-Wan says, "That boy is our only hope."
To which Yoda replies, "No. There is another" (meaning Leia).
Think about the implication here: Obi-Wan is the dude who hid Leia on Alderaan with Bail Organa. How in the hell would he NOT know that Leia is their back-up plan? Also, if Obi-Wan is in pure Jedi form and is at one with the Force, shouldn't he KNOW what's going on?!
Is this a plot hole or is it just me?



YOU WANT A PIECE OF ME!?! - The immortal, chilling words of...The Shockmaster!
Fuzzy Logic
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Since: 31.3.02
From: Happy Valley - Goose Bay, Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada

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#74 Posted on
Parts Unknown, maybe Obi Wan thinks that it's too late for Leia to become a Jedi?

Unless of course she doesn't need to be a Jedi to make Vader turn back and kill the emporer, just put in danger by him in front of Vader.
SKLOKAZOID
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Since: 20.3.02
From: California

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#75 Posted on

    Originally posted by dMp
    I was talking to a friend last night and he gave me the perfect reason why 3PO might not know Obi-Wan...

    They never met!
    In 1 3po is left on Tattooine.
    In 2 3po walks up to Ani & Padme and asks 'do you know anyone named Obi-Wan? '
    They never seem to bother explain to him who he is.
    In the battle they never meet.
    The droids leave soon after the battle with Anakin & Padme, and we don't know then if they ever meet before they left.

    Ofcourse in episode 3 there is a chance they meet, but so far it all makes sense.
    As for R2? Hey..who says the little bugger doesn't know?
    Yet when he meets Luke, did he know who he was? did he ever meet him before? He was with Leia, so I don't think so. And for all I can tell Luke was poking around in his memory banks when the message of Leia came out. Who knows he already deleted half of his brain

    So far there is nothing that suggests they SHOULD know Luke/Obi/the whole story..



Yeah, but the issue with C-3P0 is why he doesn't ask Luke if he's related to Anakin Skywalker? He must have had his memory erased if he draws no corellation between the two people. Also, he doesn't know Owen & Beru when they hire him at the moisture farm in Episode IV.

R2, yeah, I don't think he ever had his memory erased, but if C-3P0 didn't, there's plenty of holes there.
Papercuts!
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Since: 3.1.02
From: Springfield, Mo.

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#76 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by Parts Unknown
    AIRC, in Empire Strikes Back, when Luke gets into the X-wing and leaves Dagobah to face Vader and save Han, spirit Obi-Wan and Yoda have a conversation.
    If I'm correct, Obi-Wan says, "That boy is our only hope."
    To which Yoda replies, "No. There is another" (meaning Leia).
    Think about the implication here

This thread is quickly reaching critical mass. And I'm getting REALLY frustrated with it.

It's called FORESHADOWING, people. And Dramatic Structure. You're reading too much into stuff. Luke and Leia's sibling nature wouldn't be a big REVELATION for the audience in Episode VI if Yoda said "We can always use his twin sister Leia who also has force abilities."



--Jason Baldwin
Writer of Stuff About Comic Books
Parts Unknown
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Darkenwood

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#77 Posted on
Dude, I totally understand that we all needed to be surprised with Leia as Luke's sister. But that still doesn't explain why Obi-Wan would have said, "That boy is our last hope." Shouldn't he have looked at Yoda and said, "Well, if he dies, there is another we can turn to?" Is Obi-Wan a cosmic moron? Has HE had HIS memory banks erased?

Sklokazoid, you are absolutely right, and now we are back to square one on the droids theory. Under your theory, Threepio absolutely HAS to have his memory erased because otherwise, he would have known Owen and Beru. In fact, I'm pretty sure when he meets Owen he goes into his spiel of "I am C-3PO, human cyborg relations. I am fluent in over..." blahblahblah.

Of course, Threepio is a faggoty moron.



YOU WANT A PIECE OF ME!?! - The immortal, chilling words of...The Shockmaster!
Papercuts!
Potato korv








Since: 3.1.02
From: Springfield, Mo.

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#78 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by Parts Unknown
    Dude, I totally understand that we all needed to be surprised with Leia as Luke's sister. But that still doesn't explain why Obi-Wan would have said, "That boy is our last hope."
ahem. I'm trying to keep my cool here. I've written a ton of stuff in all-caps and then deleted it like five times. Let me try again. Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to be offensive in any way, shape or form here. I'm just frustrated.

Dramatic Tension.

Exposition.

The audience has to be reminded how dire the situation is. There's one person left that can save the entire universe and he's running off, possibly to die. Yes, you know this, but it's a pointed way of making you realize there's a true threat. Not everyone is as sharp as you are. Heck, in journalism school, you're taught to write on a fifth grade level to make sure everyone can understand it.
    Originally posted by Parts Unknown
    Shouldn't he have looked at Yoda and said, "Well, if he dies, there is another we can turn to?"
It's not as "mysterious" if he says that. It's not as "sage-like." Most importantly, it's not SUBTLE

If Yoda says it like he does, half of the audience will catch it and wonder what the heck he's talking about. The other half will let it fly right by them. IMHO, it's always better to be subtle with your plot points like that, rather than erect a screaming, flashing, honking neon sign (and if Guru or CRZ can make this puppy flash, that would RULE) that reads "PLOT POINT! PLOT POINT!" right in the center of the story. It interrupts the flow and makes everything feel awakward and throws it all off. As an example, look at Independence Day. There are MANY places in that film where you can apply the above scenario.

I don't know how else to explain it. I hope I was descriptive enough, sometimes I have trouble getting my thoughts out.



--Jason Baldwin
Writer of Stuff About Comic Books
Freeway
Scrapple








Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

Since last post: 363 days
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#79 Posted on
SPOILERS AHOY! AGAIN!

Okay, C-3P0 was with Anakin & Shmi for about 15 years...'til Anakin was 19 and came back. Think about this: in the homestead...WHY WOULD ANAKIN or SHMI say the name "SKYWALKER?" Do you go around your house when you're alone barking out your own last name? Nah-uh! Plus, assuming that after Episode III, C-3P0 and R2-D2 leave Tattooine and never return until Episode IV (almost 20 years later), they would remember the NAMES of BERU and OWEN LARS...but not the faces. Why? BECAUSE THEY AGED. And they never met Luke. Besides, nobody outside of the Emperor knew that Anakin Skywalker turned into Darth Vader because anyone that knew [outside of Yoda & Obi-Wan] would've been dead. I'm guessing [vaguely] that Owen & Beru didn't know the truth and told Luke what they told him simply because Obi-Wan told them that was the truth when he left Luke with them. Why? To keep them safe.

Bottom Line:
-The droids remember the names of Beru & Owen Lars, but since they aged between Episodes III and IV, they don't recognize them.
-The droids never heard the name "Skywalker" (well, R2-D2 did, perhaps) because Anakin & Shmi only referred to each other as Ani/Anakin and Mom/Shmi because they're not psychotic.
-R2-D2 would've remembered/known Obi-Wan, but C-3P0 probably never met him.
Oh, and as for the Luke/Leia thing, I'm guessing that after the shit hits the fan, Padme has the kids and dies after delivering Leia to Alderaan. Obi-Wan drops Luke with his Aunt & Uncle, then hides out. The only other Jedi left (Yoda), is chased to Dagobah and hides in the cave where he killed the Dark Jedi many years ago. It masks his presence. Obi-Wan would've known about Leia because of his closeness to Padme, but Yoda wouldn't have. So, when Obi-Wan mentions "That boy is our only hope", he's referring to the fact that he believes that only Luke can turn Vader, because only Luke is Force-attuned. BUT, he does know about Leia. Yoda is WAAAY more attuned to the force, being 800 years old, and senses through the Force that Leia IS Force-attuned (but not as much as Luke), so it reasonable to believe SHE could be trained if need be. Remember at the end of Episode VI, when Luke tells Leia "The force is strong in my family..." HE'S mentioning that she *IS* his sister and *IS* Force-attuned, though not as much as he is. Why does he know? Because Yoda told him. And he knows she's Force-attuned because he's sensing it through the Force.

(edited by Freeway420 on 22.5.02 1308)
Holden: Judging by the buzz, that movie's gonna make some serious bank. Jay: What buzz? Holden: The internet buzz. Jay: What the f*ck is the internet? [Holden (Ben Affleck) & Jay (Jason Mewes) in Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back]
SKLOKAZOID
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Since: 20.3.02
From: California

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#80 Posted on

    Originally posted by Freeway420
    SPOILERS AHOY! AGAIN!

    Okay, C-3P0 was with Anakin & Shmi for about 15 years...'til Anakin was 19 and came back. Think about this: in the homestead...WHY WOULD ANAKIN or SHMI say the name "SKYWALKER?" Do you go around your house when you're alone barking out your own last name? Nah-uh! Plus, assuming that after Episode III, C-3P0 and R2-D2 leave Tattooine and never return until Episode IV (almost 20 years later), they would remember the NAMES of BERU and OWEN LARS...but not the faces. Why? BECAUSE THEY AGED. And they never met Luke. Besides, nobody outside of the Emperor knew that Anakin Skywalker turned into Darth Vader because anyone that knew [outside of Yoda & Obi-Wan] would've been dead. I'm guessing [vaguely] that Owen & Beru didn't know the truth and told Luke what they told him simply because Obi-Wan told them that was the truth when he left Luke with them. Why? To keep them safe.

    Bottom Line:
    -The droids remember the names of Beru & Owen Lars, but since they aged between Episodes III and IV, they don't recognize them.
    -The droids never heard the name "Skywalker" (well, R2-D2 did, perhaps) because Anakin & Shmi only referred to each other as Ani/Anakin and Mom/Shmi because they're not psychotic.
    -R2-D2 would've remembered/known Obi-Wan, but C-3P0 probably never met him.



Luke never explicitly said "My name is Luke Skywalker" in the story at all to the droids, but C-3P0 called him "Master Skywalker" at first. I'm assuming the name "Skywalker" was thrown around at some point back in the old days.

Luke says "Uncle Owen's gonna kill me" with C-3P0 standing right next to him when R2-D2 runs off, so I'm sure C-3P0 would have drawn some sort of connection. Especially since he'd recognize the surroundings of the moisture farm that he had seen practically every day when he was with Shmi.
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Yeah I read it, but the first time I read it I knew you weren't happy but I also didn't think it was what kept you away from the show. Now I see a sentence in there ("I was ready to actually put money in Vince's pocket...") that explains it.
- TheBucsFan, CRZ: No Trip To Smackdown? (2002)
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