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20.8.14 1939
The W - Current Events & Politics - Election 2004 results thread (Page 6)
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StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#101 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.95
spf, why is it that if somebody votes based on thier Christian beliefs, its a bad thing?
JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
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#102 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.32
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    spf, why is it that if somebody votes based on thier Christian beliefs, its a bad thing?


Isn't that why he have separation of church and state?



To get ass, youve got to bring ass." -- Roy Jones Jr.

"Your input has been noted.
I hope you don't take it personally if I disregard it."
-- Guru Zim

"Speak English or face admin retribution." -- CRZ
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Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

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#103 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.15
The major problem, I forsee is this the religious movement. Say what you will, but once you combine religion and politics, it becomes a dangerous combination. I do believe should vote their beliefs, but it becomes a dangerous slippery slope for people just to vote on their faith. I just think there will be a backlash. The Catholic Church/Protestants/Evangalics got together to get Bush elected. What happens one of them is running a closer race against the other? I do agree there is a new religious movement on the rise, but eventually they will all slam together against each other. Its only a matter of time that will happen or we will stuck with the same white religous farm boy from the south. Catholics don't like cloning well, get used to it in the world of politics if this is the trend.
spf
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Since: 2.1.02
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#104 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.50
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    spf, why is it that if somebody votes based on thier Christian beliefs, its a bad thing?
It's not a bad thing in and of itself. I think the thread of Christianity which is driving most of the Bush voters is a corruption of the faith, designed to bring about hatred, anger, strife, and discord in the populace, and thus I don't like seeing people who believe in that being the people who make the laws for the country I live in. So personally, I hate it because I think it leads to bad laws. As someone trying to figure out how to defeat it I hate it because it is impossible to counter. If I tell you Bush is going to make you be homeless, but you don't care because even if he does that to you, he's still going to do God's work in office, what the hell do you say to someone like that to make them switch their sides. So in a practical sense it really turns the election into just a contest of who can seem closer to God's will, which I find to be worrisome, which ties into what I said earlier. I feel like as someone who was raised in the Christian faith that I have nothing in common with the Christianity that is driving the red states, and is just an excuse for old fashioned hatreds and predjudices to be cloaked in divine vestiments.



The hell with the witty cartoon. They won, there's really nothing worth laughing about right now. There is only the prospect of endless war and endless death.
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

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#105 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.38
    Originally posted by El Nastio
    Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, a highly placed member of the College of Cardinals, issued a letter not to long ago reminding Catholics about what we believe. A reminder of what we've believed for 2000 years plus now. It should come as no surprise, these things. Some of them are;

    - As Catholics, we believe in that life begins at conception.
    - As Catholics, we believe in the scared marriage of one man and one woman.
    - As Catholics, we believe in that using embryos for stem cell research is wrong (see the first point to understand why).
    - As Catholics, we believe that the cloning of human beings is wrong.


Then why can't you:

1. CHOOSE not to get an abortion.
2. CHOOSE not to marry the same sex
3. CHOOSE not to have treatments that are developed by stem cell therapy
4. CHOOSE not to support human cloning.

Why must EVERYONE be a Catholic? Why must we all conform to your ideology? Why can't you just choose not to do what you don't believe in? Freedom, eh?

    Originally posted by El Nastio
    By the sounds of things, it looks like maybe I should move down there. Ill be able to speak my mind and profess my faith (which Im not supposed use in any decisions up here in Canada).


That is why there is a separation between CHURCH and STATE. To protect the State from imposition of the Church because we are all free to pratice or not practice our own DIFFERENT religions.

One last example, in Afghanistan, people got all outraged that women were forced to wear burkas. I see women in Vancouver wearing burkas because they CHOOSE to. Should be force all women in Canada to wear them? Is that reasonable? Why should your religious beliefs affect the laws of the whole country and not theirs?



"When did they pass a law that says the people who make my sandwich have to be wearing gloves? I'm not comfortable with this. I don't want glove residue all over my food; it's not sanitary. Who knows where these gloves have been?" - George Carlin
StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#106 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.95
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    Isn't that why he have separation of church and state?


There is a big difference between my voting based on my own personal religious convictions and choosing a candidate who most closely resembles what I feel is right and just, and the government being directly associated with a particular religion.

spf, very well said. I cannot say I agree with ALL of your points, but the sentiment of not allowing a religious organization or group overtake government is one that I can agree with.

CRZ
Big Brother
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Since: 9.12.01
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#107 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.02
Say, now that we're up over 100 posts, may I suggest that if you've posted TEN TIMES in this thread, perhaps your positions have been made clear - and maybe you could SHUT UP and let the other people have their say for a while. Or go start your own blog.

(Speaking of which, I will make my prmoised post in CRZ's World real soon now)



CRZ
Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

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#108 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.14

A few notes:

1. ABC Radio (and Sam Donaldson) were commentating that most Kerry voters were voting more anti-Bush than pro-Kerry. Interesting that ABC would come up with that, and I'm not overly sure I believe it.
2. I think there was a backlash from the Michael Moore/Bruce Springsteen/Vote or Die blitz...much the same as the 'truth' ads irritate people. I imagine a lot of people are happier that their efforts failed than that Bush won.
3. The anti-gay marriage initiative votes surprised me, especially the versions that banned civil unions. I sincerely hope states rethink them and allow the civil unions.
4. How much more disastrous could the John Edwards choice have been? Not only did they not win any of the states he was supposed to help in, he was fairly schooled in his debate, and the Democrats lost his seat!
5. Not much help from Clinton, but he couldn't/didn't get in til late.
6. Obama is a very interesting fellow. I have some high hopes for him, and maybe a couple terms in Washington will get him into Presidential shape. Not saying I would support him necessarily, but there would be worse options.
7. Who can the Republicans turn to next time? Can McCain get enough of the conservatives to back him in a run? It's pretty bleak after that.
8. Kudos to Kerry for not drawing out the process. Hopefully he can follow through in what he told the Prestident in his conceding call.




"In the sky. Lord, in the sky..."
BigSteve
Pepperoni








Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

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#109 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
I can't believe how the Democratic people on this board actually feel that a person is WRONG if they vote based on their religion. Religion has somehow become equated with unmitigated hatred and bigotry. A society has laws to reflect what that society feels is right, what is moral. Obvioulsy, in a democracy, we must balance majority rule with minority rights, but I don't understand that when the majority of people who voted thought that gay marriage is immoral and/or should be illegal are now wrong to vote that way because so do so on account of religion. If you think that abortion is fine for our society, then that's your opinion. I disagree, but I won't come out and say that you're wrong because you have no religious backing for your opinion. I will respect that your opinion is just that, an opinion that you made because of your own life experiences and ideology. It isn't wrong, but I disagree with it.

On to the election, I also don't understand whypeople say the democratic party is dying. It's not doing well, but Kerry pulled 49% of the vote in. Now, some will say that Bush is an exceddingly weak candidate, but no one can argue that Kerry is the world's best candidate either. I can see where the party is in trouble, especially if they go with Clinton in 2008, but they are far from dying.
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

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#110 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.07
With regards to the 'Voting your religious beliefs' thing:

In middle school I learned about a group of people who came to America so that they could live their lives and govern themselves according to their religion. In living by their religion they ended up burning 'witches' at the stake. While it may be a completely unfounded leap to compare the religious conservatives in Salem to those we have today, it's a pretty easy one to make.

-Jag



"During his term in office, George Bush has relentlessly continued to be presidentdespite the clear benefits to America his absence would bring to the lives of citizens everywhere."

Here's to another four years...
ges7184
Lap cheong








Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

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#111 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.89
I think the religion argument is a cop-out. Isn't the alternative to voting your religious beliefs voting AGAINST your religious beliefs? Who is going to do that? People, religious or not, are going to vote for what they think is just and right. I certainly did (I mean, I certainly wouldn't vote for unjust and wrong!)

So the challenge is to convince people that your position is just and right. And by the way, in this thread we have seen people called bigots, rednecks, idiots, etc. And you wonder why you can't win these people over?

(edited by ges7184 on 3.11.04 1846)


The Bored are already here. Idle hands are the devil's workshop. And no... we won't kill dolphins. But koalas are fair game.
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#112 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.81
This is getting off-topic, but in my opinion, you should take a bigger picture view of the world than just your personal morality.

If there are multiple options, I believe Americans should choose the least restrictive option that still allows for the other options to occur.

If you personally believe in something, but can see that your belief is based in something that is not necessarily factual, you should have the restraint to choose the best option for America, not just the option that fits your belief.

If you only choose the thing you believe in, you end up with a theocracy once a critical mass of people start voting like that. America was not meant to be a theocracy. If it was, then it would already be so. America was founded with the belief that all men had the inherent right life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness -not just Christians.

It upsets me that people today can't see the great foundation of tolerance that was laid in the Constitution, but choose to only see certain words "See, they said God!".



Willful ignorance of science is not commendable. Refusing to learn the difference between a credible source and a shill is criminally stupid.
Teppan-Yaki
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Since: 28.6.02

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#113 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.99
Here's my one-post synopsis:

*Congrats to the Republicans; who wants to take bets when Terry McAuliffe is canned?

*I'll throw one more name into the '08 Dem hat: Sen. Evan Bayh of Indiana. Re-elected Senator last night; former Indiana governor. I've read somewhere that Rod Blagojevich's name has also been mentioned, but I think Illinoisans would go Obama over Blago.

*I'm disappointed... but at the same time, I'm in the camp that the Republican party can't blame Dems anymore for problems in the next 2-4 years.

Now:

--Grimis, I completely agree with you on the idea that this was a McGovern moment for the Dems. We'll see if it hurts the Dems until the end of the decade. That said, how narrow-minded can you and Stagger be when you're both parading the Borg-like "Our opinions are majority: resistance is futile" in this thread? You don't even know how I voted locally, other than the Kerry and Obama picks. So to generalize about whose opinion rules over whose when you don't know how conservative, moderate or liberally-minded we really are is off-base.

--Regarding church and state: I'm cool with voting by personal faith; it's when other people tell you to how to vote because of faith that I have a problem with. Your personal faith is yours, and I won't mess with that. All I ask in return is to respect mine and how I deal with that.
AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#114 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.07
    Originally posted by wordlife
    I hope you and StaggerLee and the rest of the majority will be the first to sign up for WWIII before they start a draft


I already did my time, and served during the end of the vietnam era. I suspect I am a tad too old for the current military although my grandad went back in in WW2 at 49, which is older than me. But he has a special skill (medic) that they needed. My only skill was shooting a lot of bullets really fast and writing parking tickets. My Son's 14 and I have already told him that he'd make me proud if he served his country because, I told him, in the old-fashioned way I think, that that's what real men do. He's a little afraid, of course, but he's a tough guy and may decide to do that. I won't down him if he doesn't, but I'd be proud if he did. Military makes a man a man, IMO.

You know, I hear a lot about all these disaffected groups you talk about, but it's so much crap. I have friends who are gay AND conservative. They have essentially the same rights as the wife and I - although, admittedly, they had to actually think about it and take steps that kind of just happened for us when we got married. Abortion rights aren't going to go away. They should go back to the states, though.

I hear people say that Bush should move to the center. I don't agree. He ran on principles and morals and it turns out that's what people voted on. A man should fulfil his election promises. I would have expected Kerry to and I expect Bush to fulfil his.



Now, is it ok for me yell THEATRE! in a crowded fire?
messenoir
Summer sausage








Since: 20.2.02
From: Columbia, MO

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#115 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.38
I am a pro-life Christian, because I believe life starts at conception and I am against killing of any sort. However, I also realize there are people who believe life starts at birth, and I can understand that position.

I also do not believe homosexuality is Biblically acceptable. However, I understand there are many people not Christians, and many Christians, who have very different beliefs from me.

So, I cannot see it as my place to work for laws outlawing homosexuality and abortion, and I will fight against anyone who seeks to exclude groups opposed to me from the debate.

Bush and conservative Christians are seeking to create laws only allowing for one point of view, and that is wrong. I agree on the abortion and homosexuality issue from a purely faith standpoint, but faith should always remain personal. It should guide how you live, not how you force others to live.

God doesn't force people to become Christians, or to believe in him. He wants people to choose him of their own free will. And so therefore Christians shouldn't force people to live how we believe. We should instead vote for choice, and live our lives in such a way people want to live like us.

Bush and the conservative Christian Right have scared people so much they feel they must protect their families against all kinds of menaces, shutting the doors on people different, instead of turning their families into beautiful examples of Christian living different people want to follow. That kind of leading and that kind of fear is going to continue to tear apart this country, and I fear the ramifications.
Leroy
Andouille








Since: 7.2.02
From: Huntington, NY

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#116 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.64
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    My Son's 14 and I have already told him that he'd make me proud if he served his country because, I told him, in the old-fashioned way I think, that that's what real men do. He's a little afraid, of course, but he's a tough guy and may decide to do that. I won't down him if he doesn't, but I'd be proud if he did. Military makes a man a man, IMO.


Funny, but my father - a staunch Republican who also did a tour in Vietnam (about a decade before you), and whose basically the toughest and smartest man I've ever known - told me he all but disown me if I ever entered the military.I won't go into detail into his issues with the military, but he doesn't think highly of it. And he'd probably laugh out loud at "Military makes a man a man".

And my best friend - who did three years in the army and a tour in Bosnia - said it was about the most dysfunctional and poorly managed organization he'd ever been a part of. They were practically BEGGING him to stay in when his time was up. He started marching in anti-war protests BECAUSE of his experiences in the army.

Granted, both my father and my friend are not typical of vets - but this "For love of country" is not a unanimous




"Who are these f--king people anyway? What more do they need to make a decision?" - Jason "George Costanza" Alexander on Swing Voters
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#117 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.56
    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    Grimis, I completely agree with you on the idea that this was a McGovern moment for the Dems. We'll see if it hurts the Dems until the end of the decade. That said, how narrow-minded can you and Stagger be when you're both parading the Borg-like "Our opinions are majority: resistance is futile" in this thread? You don't even know how I voted locally, other than the Kerry and Obama picks. So to generalize about whose opinion rules over whose when you don't know how conservative, moderate or liberally-minded we really are is off-base.



Teppan-yaki, over the past seven or so months, all I have heard here is how the Republicans:
Are trying to Reinstate a draft, Take away everybody's rights, Steal Oil, Send people to war against their will,
Not let Gay people get married because they either think they are evil for being gay, or are afraid of people with a different lifestyle, and slur everybody who thinks differently.

Its also been said that this isnt how the majority of Americans feel, that President Bush would get slaughtered in the election, that nobody trusts President Bush, that everybody who agrees with the Presidents views on Iraq are war mongering assholes, and that they are too afraid to go fight themselves.

I was just pointing out, that more people seem to agree with the President, than disagree with him. That those who thought that way, are not in the majority. I didnt say resistance is futile. You can try to resist, it makes for a better democratic process.

So, if the three or four of us who publicly agreed with the war, and/or supported the President, and have gotten told what fucking idiots we are, have an occasion to say "told you so" a little, dont get mad at us.

RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

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#118 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
spf: Congrats Grimis, Stagger, Flea, and all the other Republicans on the board. Hopefully we'll all get to serve in the W Battallion when we all get drafted for Operation "Ah hell, let's just pave this middle east over" in 2007. I just hope none of us get any dubious purple hearts...we might not become president because of it ;)

For the record I am not a Republican - I voted for Clinton's second term and most likely *may* have voted against W if 1)I didn't think that this country is going in the right direction fiscally and for damn sure on a Political Global scale...taking care of business that should have been addressed in the 70's, 80's...definitely in the 90's when

a) we were already there (Bush I) and

b) in all the years that Clinton sat and watched as the WTC got whacked (twice) and the Middle East evolved into a serious threat while America was too busy making money hand over fist to worry about things like "foreign policy" and "social program reform"...the time to do all this was the years between 95-98, when Capitalism allowed for such mean deeds - when people are making money, they go along with just about anything. W at least has a vision in both the financial arena and wasteful government programs to reform and has the common decency/smarts/advisors to finish what we started overseas...is it going to be rough? Of course...serious change and progress can't happen overnight...let me get to the "2" of why I didn't vote against W...

2) because it was John Fucking Kerry - a useless bastard that has haunted me since I was old enough to understand the pain he inflicted upon my family (and many others) by coming back and "cleansing his soul" - or, for you agnostic types - "clearing his conscious"...I also remember 1984, when he was elected a Democratic Senator in MA - now *that's* job is for life, same as a Supreme Court Justice. I was 14 at the time and knew that this asshole would be around to haunt me for as long as I followed politics...never did I think he would have the nerve or the following to come within a mismanaged campaign of being Leader of the Free World

I watched in disgust as he had the audacity to wrap himself in the flag and then trot himself out at the DNC Convention and say he was "reporting for duty"...nearly every snow-blind Donkey voting Democrat I know called me that week in a fit of rage, saying they would have to swallow their pride, burn their registration cards and vote for W. You don't alienate a group of "your own crowd" by being "Christian" and "for Family Values" et al. It takes a certain amount of sheer gall to be ignorant like Kerry and stick a pitchfork in the only other "worth voting for" party we have in this country...damned if he didn't.

In between all this - he picked John Edwards, a punk of a trial lawyer whose claim to fame was having the dead voice of a little girl run through his dreams as tried his best to crucify two industries. I made a career out of burying cheap pricks like that - anyone who thinks he is the "future of the party" is fooling themselves. He couldn't carry Florida, as this state just voted AGAINST the Lawyers. I suggest Bill Nelson...good guy; don't agree with his politics, but he is "center" enough to draw one of these days. Most likely the next Governor of this State.

spf: Hopefully we'll all get to serve in the W Battallion when we all get drafted for Operation "Ah hell, let's just pave this middle east over" in 2007.

There will be no draft. And the "war" will be over by this time next year. The only reason it has gone on this long is because W used politics to engage the enemy - all bets are off now. And I'm pretty much sick of people crying the blues about our soldiers dying - they signed their Death Warrant when they joined the Military....much like many of the Men and Women who died as Police Officers and Fire Fighters did during 9/11 and still do to this day, in every State and County and City - it's a Risk of The Trade. What was wrong was many of the less fortunate being drafted for Vietnam, dying and getting pissed on by a cocksucker like John Kerry...what is even worse is the Men and Women who volunteered for said War, 30 years later, being trapped in a corner and going against their principles to make sure a self-serving bastard like that got what he deserved:

A Front Row Seat in the Loser Section while America does what is Right. Couldn't happen to a better guy...I'm bummed he had to take a whole Party down with him to prove something I knew at the age of 14, but ...I never got off on being proved right, neither personally nor professionally, but some people ask for something

Ask, and it shall be given you; Seek, and ye shall find; Knock, and it shall be opened unto you. -

- Matthew 7:7

Yep...my advice is to take a Road Trip or two....and go broke. Worse comes to worse make a Gideon Bible Page Sandwich - but never underestimate the God quotient of this Country. Many of us have Gay friends and find it acceptable - but the same many think that In Drag Tongue Kissing on The Steps of a Courthouse is a little "over the top"....

CRZ: Say, now that we're up over 100 posts, may I suggest that if you've posted TEN TIMES in this thread, perhaps your positions have been made clear - and maybe you could SHUT UP and let the other people have their say for a while. Or go start your own blog.

Knock Three Times ;-)...300th post (not allinthesamethread) ...and the link is a the bottom. That ain't no Blog - server is PAID FOR!...and I'm Lazy too!

Leroy: Funny, but my father - a staunch Republican who also did a tour in Vietnam (about a decade before you), and whose basically the toughest and smartest man I've ever known - told me he all but disown me if I ever entered the military.I won't go into detail into his issues with the military, but he doesn't think highly of it. And he'd probably laugh out loud at "Military makes a man a man"

And my best friend - who did three years in the army and a tour in Bosnia - said it was about the most dysfunctional and poorly managed organization he'd ever been a part of. They were practically BEGGING him to stay in when his time was up. He started marching in anti-war protests BECAUSE of his experiences in the army.

Granted, both my father and my friend are not typical of vets - but this "For love of country" is not a unanimous.


I remember us getting into a semi-heated debate about this a long time ago in another thread...as I said then, they (the ones I mentioned then) voted their own way, which was their way.

FLEA

(edited by RYDER FAKIN on 3.11.04 2154)


Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high

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Teppan-Yaki
Pepperoni








Since: 28.6.02

Since last post: 874 days
Last activity: 844 days
#119 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.99
Stagger:

Point taken on the resistance part; however, before I take this to PM, please tell me where before this thread that I've called anyone a "fucking idiot" ANYWHERE on this board.

Have I posted threads that support Kerry and that are against Bush? You bet. But as Chris has asked in the past, I've tried not to take this into personal levels.

At the same time, when you say people "agree" with the President -- agree with what? He will still have to alter the right track/wrong track and the job performance numbers.

I'll look at the one positive thing to come out of this -- look at how many people voted. Don't look at who voted for who; just look at the total amount of people that went out and voted.

I hope it's higher in four years.
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 415 days
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#120 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.73
    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    Here's my one-post synopsis:

    *Congrats to the Republicans; who wants to take bets when Terry McAuliffe is canned?

    *I'll throw one more name into the '08 Dem hat: Sen. Evan Bayh of Indiana. Re-elected Senator last night; former Indiana governor. I've read somewhere that Rod Blagojevich's name has also been mentioned, but I think Illinoisans would go Obama over Blago.



Is McAuliffe the worst party head of all time? Bush comes in in 2000 as a weak President with a 50-50 Senate and a House that had been slowly losing Republican seats since '94. In the McAuliffe Reign of Terror, Democrats drop to 44 seats (1 Independent voting Democrat makes it 45, but he was elected as a Republican, so Terry didn't really do much there), a 12% drop during a Presidency that on paper appeared weak, while at the same time the Republicans gain seats in the House in both elections during his term.
On the 'dead' Democratic party and the Obama questions:
As currently constituted, the Democrats have a serious math problem. At this point, I think it is fairly safe to say that a dividing line in Presidential politics should be drawn at 1968, as it was at that point the Democrats lost firm control of the South and provided the Republicans the opportunity to move in. The South (non-Florida)gets the Republicans halfway to victory without breaking much of a sweat, and the total number of electoral votes in the South increases every 10 years, while conversely those electoral votes slowly recede from Northern Democratic states.
Here is a major problem in Obama winning the Presidency. Race. Forget racism for a second. A move towards Obama would be a historical move for the Democrats and could be used in order to help increase their margin in the black vote. However, its 90-9 already, so what is it going to do, increase to 92-7? Still doesn't do anything to fix the math problem, as he is from Illinois, thus he is not going to be taking a state away from Republicans. And, while his victory was impressive, it was over Alan Keyes. It is a safe bet that any member of the W who is a U.S. Citizen and is over 30 could beat Alan Keyes in a Senate race. That Keyes broke 25% in a general is actually amazing, as he couldn't break 2% in Republican Presidential primaries.
Now, I'll throw a name and an idea out there, and I'll preface it by saying I am virtually unfamiliar with this person, except for the fact that much like Obama, he is a new Democratic Senator. Salazar from Colorado. He can win statewide office in Colorado, thus meaning that state and its electoral votes would be in play. Now, the important point: He is Hispanic. He could throw Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, Florida and even Texas in the right circumstances into play. The Northeast is still safely Democratic, and throw a Rust Belt Democrat in the 2 slot and the Democrats can at minimum retain their states in that region and possibly pick off a state. Suddenly, a new math problem is formed, with the Republicans forced to play defense. This is why there is a far greater chance of a Hispanic President than a Black President, as a Hispanic candidate could flip Hispanic voters for historical significance purposes, where as the Black candidate can't, since virtually everyone is already in the Democratic fold. But, as long as the Democrats trot out guys from Minnesota and New England, the math will always be a mountain for the Democrats.

*Edited to fix spacing by EFamous*








(edited by Eddie Famous on 3.11.04 2052)


Red Sox World Champions. Welcome back Kaiser.
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