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DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3475 days
Last activity: 3469 days
#81 Posted on
"The only problem I have with this is that christains tend to constantly rewrite what science they will or won't accept. For example, most christains today don't believe that the earth is 6000 years old or exists at the center of the solar system. They also, for the most part, believe in dinosaurs. The bible is very specific on these issues though. It seems that when presented with scientific facts that don't conform with the bible's standards, most christains go through the classic: denial, anger, and acceptance stages of psychotherapy."

The fact is though that it is very debatable whether the Bible gives us the eact age of the earth, or whether or not it says dinosaurs did not exist. I believe along with others that there is no debate in regards to the question of creation and how life was formed. The Bible is clear that life did not evolve through random, natural processes. It was a supernatural act of an all-powerful being, something a majority of scientists (especially, as you point out, anthropologists and biologists) do want want to hear. In that regard, I think it is also false to say that a theory is deemed to be true simply by majority opinion. I know it is hard for people to realize that all these very smart people may be wrong (or, my main point, blinded by philosophical bias), but a majority of very smart people have been wrong before, so the idea doesn't bother me.

DMC






"Blinded by her sight, it's the darkness in her eyes that so enslaves me. But if my love is blind, then I don't want to see, she's a mystery to me." -Roy Orbison, Mystery Girl, written by Bono and The Edge
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 9 hours
AIM:  
#82 Posted on
Look.

I'm not saying that everything has to be random chance. Perhaps by thinking to myself "I want to have strong children" every day 50 times, there is a yet unknown mechanism in my brain that causes my sperm production to choose genetics for strong children.

I'M NOT SAYING THIS HAPPENS. I'm saying it's possible. God doesn't have to be in the equasion for species to change.

DMC - You do realize that having a few scientists that back you up does not ANYWHERE NEAR NEGATE the thousands of scientists that do not, right?

I don't care if every scientist who explains evolution scientifically, and with evidence, recants on their deathbed. Do you think it is rational to beg to be saved by a God (making offers like "If you let me live I'll be a good person") while free falling in a crashing air plane? The FEAR OF DEATH (not the truth of God's existance) causes many rational people to act irrationally in times of stress. I can only imagine that lying on your deathbed must be a tad stressful, and I can forgive any lapses of reason that occur there.

This is such a silly argument. You base it upon the "fact" that you see both sides of this discussion as equally valid. In fact, if you were to take the facts and list them on a sheet of paper, you would see that creationism HAS no facts, only stories, myths, and attempts to refute evolution. Meanwhile, science can paint a picture of the creation of the universe for every moment up to the Big Bang. They have facts to back up their assertations. It's not guessing, or wishy washy.

Damn.

Why don't you think the earth is the center of the universe? The church used to say this. It was disproven by science.

You can accept the science of the 1500s but you can't accept the thoughts of scientists who have mastered splitting the atom, travelling in space, landing on the moon, creating plastics, artificial hearts, organ transplants...

You write against science and scientists on a computer made possible by the technology created by scientists and academics. Why do you not doubt how computers work - perhaps they are "spirit boxes" run by demons?

If your priest told you that your car ran on prayer, would you be as quick to argue against the facts that your car runs on gasoline? Because I can show you more evidence that evolution occurred than I can that your car doesn't run on prayer. (especially your old Taurus, but I digress).

I'm about to give up on this discussion. It's so obvious to me that you are being selective about what you want to believe and what you don't. If you seek the truth, you don't have that option. You simply look at what can be backed up with reproducable results.



I love it when a plan comes together
Tha Puerto Rican
Bauerwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: New York City, USA

Since last post: 4374 days
Last activity: 3970 days
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#83 Posted on
Oops.


"Oops?"




WTF does that mean?



THa Puerto Rican

LWO 4-Life

God bless the internet.
tarnish
Frankfurter








Since: 13.2.02
From: Back in the Heart of Hali

Since last post: 501 days
Last activity: 10 hours
AIM:  
Y!:
#84 Posted on

Among other things, this was said:


    It's not blind faith. We have evidence, and we call it The Bible, a book hated throughout the centuries yet never disproven, but the facts contained therein proven time and again through the very scientific processes (anthropology, archaeology, historical records) that some people point to as the only ultimate truth. Those of us who believe in the Word of God fulfilled in the life of Jesus Christ have evidence in the way that He works in people's lives every day.



Evidence? There's no such thing.

If you read through the philosophy of the ages that is still reasonably accessible, both Christian and non-Christian, and naturalist and rationalist, etc. etc. etc. for ever and ever, amen, you'll quickly find that ``anyone'' can prove ``anything'' based on their ``evidence'' and their logical arguments.

The Bible is truly evidence of ONE thing, namely that there was a master storyteller alive in the world some time around the first century A.D. (even then, the predominantly oral tradition of that era of humankind means it could be a much older story than that). It is no more evidence for the existence of Jesus, God, or any other deity/demi-deity/person than the Iliad is of Zeus, Hera, and Achilles.

As for proving the existence or non-existence of God, if I were to concern myself with such, I would be trying to prove it, if only because proving a non-existential is generally the most difficult (generally impossible) task one can undertake in logic.

Belief cannot be based on fact. That's the whole Fucking point right there. When it all comes down to it, nobody knows. If you believe in the Christian way, really and truly in your heart, you're probably not a part of this discussion, because nothing remains to be proven to you. And generally, you probably have better things to do than try to prove it to me.

All so-called ``logical arguments,'' whether sound or unsound, complete or incomplete, valid, or invalid, absolutely and completely rely on there being some group of one or more assumptions that are considered true from which the argument can be constructed and the conclusion reached. There is no such group of assumptions that can be agreed upon with respect to the question of the existence of God. Ergo the only thing that can be agreed upon is that God might very well exist.

Pardon me whilst I return to pissing up a rope; I think I can be more productive that way






/tarnish...
must...not...engage...in...board...metacommentary...
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 9 hours
AIM:  
#85 Posted on
OOps means, that even though I was trying to end a discussion that I didn't want to start in the first place, that I screwed up and fed the discussion.



I love it when a plan comes together
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3475 days
Last activity: 3469 days
#86 Posted on
Guru,

I agree that arguing from authority, no matter how many authorities you are able to stack up, is illogical. I have never tried to do that, I hope, but others may have. What matters is the evidence as far as I'm concerned. Also, I never made any claim about "deathbed confessions" somehow dis-proving evolution- I take it you are responding to someone else there. (In fact the whole idea that Darwin confessed on his deathbed is very likely a myth, and most creationists note that.)

As far as there being positive evidence that can be offered for creationism or intelligent design, I think there are many. It involves many of the same natural evidences that biologists have been studying for years, it simply says that the more rational explanation for these complex things is an intelligent creator. Saying that doesn't negate any of the great accomplishments of science, it just may be the more correct answer for the origin of life. I believe that the answer to life is ultimately a very mysterious one, and I believe there are many other very mysterious aspects of our universe. Just because there are hard-line materialists who deny tooth and nail the existence of other forces/beings existing out there doesn't bother me, because you can show they are probably wrong, at least when it comes to the big question of origins.

Anyway, I should probably shut up now since I promised I would let you have the last word.

DMC

(edited by DMC on 19.4.02 1204)
"Blinded by her sight, it's the darkness in her eyes that so enslaves me. But if my love is blind, then I don't want to see, she's a mystery to me." -Roy Orbison, Mystery Girl, written by Bono and The Edge
Tha Puerto Rican
Bauerwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: New York City, USA

Since last post: 4374 days
Last activity: 3970 days
AIM:  
#87 Posted on

    arguments.

    The Bible is truly evidence of ONE thing, namely that there was a master storyteller alive in the world some time around the first century A.D. (even then, the predominantly oral tradition of that era of humankind means it could be a much older story than that). It is no more evidence for the existence of Jesus, God, or any other deity/demi-deity/person than the Iliad is of Zeus, Hera, and Achilles.



    So...you're an agnostic who believes that the Bible was written by a storyteller? It has been proven that the Bible was written by different people which is why the Bible presents God in different ways. As a loving, compassionate, father-figure, and as a tough, strict, man who punishes people by sending them to hell.

    Will we ever know how God is like 100%? Maybe, if we go to Heaven. But can the human mind have the power to prove 100% without a doubt, whether or not God exists? No. I am speaking not as a Christian but as a human that there is so much evidence to support and disprove the existence of a God that it's a question that will never be solved on Earth. As a Christian, I say that if you want to look for proof of God's existence, look at the world. It is so perfectly created that a Higher Power had to be involved. And the human mind is the most complicated thing in the universe. Tell me that is not the work of a Higher Power! And, Jesus was ahead of his time. Too smart to be just a chance especially when 90% of the people of his time were idiots!

    So, I believe that all you have to do is believe and you'll find out in the end.



    THa Puerto Rican

    LWO 4-Life

    God bless the internet.
squiz
Salami








Since: 5.1.02
From: Dover, NH

Since last post: 1120 days
Last activity: 223 days
AIM:  
#88 Posted on
    Originally posted by Tha Puerto Rican


      The Bible is truly evidence of ONE thing, namely that there was a master storyteller alive in the world some time around the first century A.D. (even then, the predominantly oral tradition of that era of humankind means it could be a much older story than that). It is no more evidence for the existence of Jesus, God, or any other deity/demi-deity/person than the Iliad is of Zeus, Hera, and Achilles.



      So...you're an agnostic who believes that the Bible was written by a storyteller? It has been proven that the Bible was written by different people which is why the Bible presents God in different ways. As a loving, compassionate, father-figure, and as a tough, strict, man who punishes people by sending them to hell.




    What's wrong with calling the Bible a story written by some great storytellers? It has, afterall, been the most popular story ever. It lasted an extremely long time unchanged, and has survived and thrived after it was changed. And, to my knowledge, only the stories of Ovid and Homer have lasted longer with any sort of popularity.

    I am not a full believer in the Bible, nor am I an agnostic. I believe that there are truths in the Bible (such as a flood that wiped out all of Sumeria), as well as glaring errors and lies (it didn't wipe out Egypt, nor anyone else, not suprisingly). It obviously is written by different people with different motives (history, selling the new religion, etc.) And I think the Catholic Church has always been, and forever will be, the worst run organization ever, which is probably a bad thing since it afterall is the original representation of the Christian Church.

    I am reminded of a hypothetical conversation between a Christian (c) and a non-Christian (d) that pretty much sums up my position on the Bible. I don't know the origin of this, or where I copied it from.

    D: Was there a road named Route 66?
    C: Yes.
    D: Was there an event called the "Great Depression"?
    C: Yes.
    D: You agree that during this time there was also an event called the "Dust Bowl"?
    C: Of course.
    D: Do you agree that it is an historical fact that during this time thousands of poor farmers from Oklahoma and Arkansas headed west to California, the so-called "Okies" and "Arkies"?
    C: Sure.
    D: Then, using your logic, have I just proved that "The Grapes of Wrath" is not a fictional novel with an historical setting, but an historical, documentary, account of the travels of the Joad family during the aforementioned events?

    One last thing, and I don't remember who said it earlier, but the Jews were not the first people to believe in a single god. Amenophis IV, aka Akhenaton, of Egypt's 18th dynasty, and the Israelites learned it from him, when they were enslaved. The next Egyptian king, Tutankhamen, returned Egypt to their old ways, while the escaped people during the Exodus continued to believe in a single god, and the Jews were a very small minority even in the homelands for a couple hundred years.

    (edited by squiz on 19.4.02 2026)
    Hej, jag har en gris i byxorna.
Tha Puerto Rican
Bauerwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: New York City, USA

Since last post: 4374 days
Last activity: 3970 days
AIM:  
#89 Posted on
Alright, but why do you think the Bible is just a story? It's has to be real!



THa Puerto Rican

LWO 4-Life

God bless the internet.
squiz
Salami








Since: 5.1.02
From: Dover, NH

Since last post: 1120 days
Last activity: 223 days
AIM:  
#90 Posted on

    Originally posted by Tha Puerto Rican
    Alright, but why do you think the Bible is just a story? It's has to be real!


Why does it have to be real?




Hej, jag har en gris i byxorna.

DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3475 days
Last activity: 3469 days
#91 Posted on
"D: Then, using your logic, have I just proved that "The Grapes of Wrath" is not a fictional novel with an historical setting, but an historical, documentary, account of the travels of the Joad family during the aforementioned events?"

This is more than just a little silly. When did "D" ever ask "C" is he/she felt the Grapes of Wrath was a true historical recollection of actual events and not just a story? Is Jaws now a historical fact because sometimes great white sharks take chunks out of people? Does the mere fact that we have sent rockets into space prove that 2001 actually occured?

DMC

(edited by DMC on 20.4.02 0954)
"Blinded by her sight, it's the darkness in her eyes that so enslaves me. But if my love is blind, then I don't want to see, she's a mystery to me." -Roy Orbison, Mystery Girl, written by Bono and The Edge
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 10 days
Last activity: 2 days
AIM:  
#92 Posted on
I am willing to believe that many of the events in the bible happened. However, just because they happened does not mean they mean what believers say they do.

For instance, from an article at Frontpage Mag

But how can one explain that Tenth Plague, the death of the Egyptian first born while the Hebrew first born children remained healthy? Surely this is either a divine miracle or a fantasy based perhaps on the coincidental death of the firstborn of Pharaoh or a few other important Egyptians when a contagious disease swept through the land.

Surprisingly, scientists now have a theory that makes the death of the firstborn plausible. First, they assume that the earlier plagues reflect unusual weather conditions at the time of the Tenth Plague. Explosions of frogs, locusts, hail, and unusual Nile flooding suggest that things might have been wetter and more humid than normal.

Ancient Egypt was the breadbasket of the Mediterranean, targeted by hungry neighbors such as Rome because grain grew more abundantly along the Nile in its annually-renewed rich soil than anywhere else. Egyptians stored their harvests, which is why then as now they adore the cats that keep rats from their granaries. (I remember arriving at the Cairo airport and seeing cats everywhere, on floors, counters, even overhead lighting fixtures.)

But 3,300 years ago those Egyptian granaries were made of mud bricks – the same kind that Hebrew slaves once were forced to make, but were denied the necessary straw that holds adobe together. If rains came or humidity rose, moisture could seep through such mud buildings and dampen the grain inside. Once dampened, that grain could fall prey to airborne molds and fungi, some varieties of which create toxic chemicals.

But if strange weather conditions caused toxic mold to grow on Egypt’s grain, why did only the first born Egyptians die? The answer, say researchers, is that the first born son in Egyptian families held a privileged position. He was entitled to a "double portion" of food, twice as much as younger siblings. The poison, as toxicologists are fond of saying, is in the dose. Such mold could create enough toxic chemical to sicken anyone eating a single portion of grain – but to kill anyone eating twice that amount, a double portion. Under such conditions, the well-fed first born of many families would die while brothers and sisters eating only half as much would survive.

The Hebrews had no such tradition of giving double portions to their firstborn sons. As slaves they had far less to eat than their Egyptian masters and "betters", and hence even if eating the same toxic grain they ate less of it.

Kinda puts the whole thing in a little different light, yet still fits right in with the events chronicled in the bible.



"You used it to shove your miserable daughter down our throats week in and week out...not anymore!" - Ric Flair gives me hope, Raw 3/18/02

"I thought it was cool how HHH just tossed Jericho out of the ring and made him vanish, possibly into another dimension, at the end of the match." - Dr. Unlikely says the funniest thing I've ever read on Wienerville.

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MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 9 hours
#93 Posted on
I'ts somewhat debatable whether or not the ancient Hebrews were the first monothiests. The switch from polythiesm to monothiesm didn't just happen one day, it was a long process that involved the followers of a certain diety (Yahweh) gaining prominence and power in the land.

Much of the concepts of monothiesm probably didn't come from the Egyptians, it probably came from the Persian Zoroastrians during the Babylonian exile. While the concept of "one God" was probably around before them, such concepts as the afterlife, the messiah, the devil, and judgement day almost certainly came from the Persians.



Expressing myself EVERY day!
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This is interesting. I'm not quite sure what the fallout of this is going to be, but it's interesting. http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/10/10/security.internet.reut/index.html -Jag
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