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The W - Current Events & Politics - Easter & God: The Politics (Page 4)
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Gavintzu
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Calgary ... Alberta Canada

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#61 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
The Madman.
Have you ever heard of the madman who on a bright morning lighted a lantern and ran to the
market-place calling out unceasingly: "I seek God! I seek God!" As there were many people standing about who did not believe in God, he caused a great deal of amusement. Why? is he lost? said one. Has he strayed away like a child? said another. Or does he keep himself hidden? Is he afraid of us? Has he taken a sea voyage? Has he emigrated? - the people cried out laughingly, all in a hubbub.

The insane man jumped into their midst and transfixed them with his glances. "Where is God gone?" he called out. "I mean to tell you! We have killed him, you and I! We are all his murderers! But how have we done it? How were we able to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the whole horizon? What did we do when we loosened this earth from its sun? Whither does it now move? Whither do we move? Away from all suns? Do we not dash on unceasingly? Backwards, sideways, forwards, in all directions? Is there still an above and below? Do we not stray, as through infinite nothingness? Does not empty space breathe upon us? Has it not become colder? Does not night come on continually, darker and darker? Shall we not have to light lanterns in the morning? Do we not hear the noise of the grave-diggers who are burying God? Do we not smell the divine putrefaction? - for even Gods putrify! God is dead! God remains dead! And we have killed him!

How shall we console ourselves, the most murderous of all murderers? The holiest and the mightiest that the world has hitherto possessed, has bled to death under our knife - who will wipe the blood from us? With what water could we cleanse ourselves? What lustrums, what sacred games shall we have to devise? Is not the magnitude of this deed too great for us? Shall we not ourselves have to become Gods, merely to seem worthy of it? There never was a greater event - and on account of it, all who are born after us belong to a higher history than any history hitherto!" Here the madman was silent and looked again at his hearers; they also were silent and looked at him in surprise.

At last he threw his lantern on the ground, so that it broke in pieces and was extinguished. "I come too early," he then said. "I am not yet at the right time. This prodigious event is still on its way, and is traveling - it has not yet reached men's ears. Lightning and thunder need time, the light of the stars needs time, deeds need time, even after they are done, to be seen and heard. This deed is as yet further from them than the furthest star - and yet they have done it themselves!" It is further stated that the madman made his way into different churches on the same day, and there intoned his Requiem aeternam deo. When led out and called to account, he always gave the reply: "What are these churches now, if they are not the tombs and monuments of God?"

Friedrich Nietzsche The Gay Science

Mmmmmmm I love Nietzsche. Some days I wish I could give him a big hug and a kiss.






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Right now I'm flying over, yeah right now I'm flying home.
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Since: 7.3.02
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#62 Posted on
I couldn't agree more with BDC, after reading
THIS.
Chick 3:16..get it?



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Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#63 Posted on
enough. I encourage anyone who believes in superstition to actually get an education and learn the truth about science.

Don't believe what you've been told. The church IS trying to control you with lies.

Science is not fake. It would be stupid to sit here on a computer and rail back at me about how scientists are liars and the pawns of Satan. Show me something that you have done that proves you are as smart as the scientists that say evolution is real, and I'll hold your opinion on the same level as theirs.

(edited by Guru Zim on 18.4.02 1037)
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Tha Puerto Rican
Bauerwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: New York City, USA

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#64 Posted on
Astrobd, you're an agnostic right?

Did you look up the site?



THa Puerto Rican

LWO 4-Life

God bless the internet.
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#65 Posted on
You gotta like the philosophy that says "because evolution is still a principle in flux, it must not be right, so instead let's assume that a completely unproveable doctrine is absolute truth instead."

I don't know how things came about. Even though I don't much believe in religion, I do have a belief that there likely was some prime mover force that began the spinning of everything in its merry ways, though I make no claims as to the nature of such a thing. But I do know that there's a hell of a lot more things

A few things on the subject:

Wild World of Creationism

From the Mouths of Creationists

And just to make sure you have a solid working knowledge of the book upon which you want to base your worldview and beliefs, make sure to take the Bible Fact Quiz



"You used it to shove your miserable daughter down our throats week in and week out...not anymore!" - Ric Flair gives me hope, Raw 3/18/02

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Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 143 days
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#66 Posted on
From BDC:

what Christianity is, however, is the personal relationship with Jesus Christ by accepting him as the Messiah--the ticket to heaven, as it were. That's the one rule. The other rules, the 10 Commandments and stuff...as Christians you want to follow them, obviously, but once you've punched your ticket, that's it. God doesn't revoke it.

And this is one of the problems I have with Christianity (besides trying to interpret the Bible literally, thanks for the Bible Quiz spf). Christ can never be my savior because I believe in a God who can accept me and love me UNCONDITIONALLY. With that in mind I try to live my life as morally and just as I am able to, and I try to love everyone just as Unconditionally as God loves me. I think a representation of anything less than Unconditional Love is false and simply not worth believing in. Yes, I do leave my mind open enough to accept the fact that God might not love me unconditionally, and Christianity could be RIGHT. But if that's true, well.... I never asked to be born in a world like this in the first place. Hey here's a quote that I stumbled upon at the Gabe Art section of Penny-Arcade of all places.

"If you love someone, you don't want them to suffer. You want to take their sufferings on yourself. If even I feel this way, why doesn't God?" -T.S. Elliot

-Jag

Just a note, the reason I finally put a sig line in is because that Gibson quote works on so many levels for me. I try to love everyone unconditionally... so when I hate, who am I hating? The ones I love.

/edit Can you be more specific about that site Puerto Rican? I don't know which one you're talking about...

(edited by Jaguar on 18.4.02 1804)
"You gotta hate somebody before this is over. Them, me, it doesn't matter."

"Hate, who do I hate? You tell me."

"Who do you love?"

-Wintermute to Case in William Gibson's Neuromancer
Tha Puerto Rican
Bauerwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: New York City, USA

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#67 Posted on
Damn.

Did anyone look up the site?



THa Puerto Rican

LWO 4-Life

God bless the internet.
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 143 days
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#68 Posted on
Like I said before, be more specific and I'll read the site. Otherwise, I don't know what it is that you want me to read.

-Jag



"You gotta hate somebody before this is over. Them, me, it doesn't matter."

"Hate, who do I hate? You tell me."

"Who do you love?"

-Wintermute to Case in William Gibson's Neuromancer
Tha Puerto Rican
Bauerwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: New York City, USA

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#69 Posted on
Go to http://home.talkcity.com/librarydr/eztoamuse/FASQFC.htm.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's just mean.



THa Puerto Rican

LWO 4-Life

God bless the internet.
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 143 days
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#70 Posted on
Hmmmmmm, I had a long post that said a bunch of things about Atheism, but I decided they really weren't what I wanted to say. Suffice it to say that to me, Atheism is (in the case of the site author) a Christian refuting Christianity. He's guilty of the same circular arguments that he uses to make other Christians look stupid. So in fact he just practices a form of Christianity that centers around God not existing. It seems kind of silly to me. I was amused with some of the arguments, and then I came across this statement:

I can't believe somebody would believe in an invisible paradise, run by an invisible God (where their invisible souls go)unless that person's life on earth really, really sucked.

Well, hmmmm... how should I put this? Shit happens, and then you die? That's what religion/spirituality means to me. Giving a point, some type of meaning to that personal struggle that lasts for years until you die. Whatever, I think I've lost my focus. Anyway I'm really interested in a rebuttal to what I said earlier. Is there a point to having a god that does not give you unconditional love?

-Jaguar



"You gotta hate somebody before this is over. Them, me, it doesn't matter."

"Hate, who do I hate? You tell me."

"Who do you love?"

-Wintermute to Case in William Gibson's Neuromancer
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 9 days
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#71 Posted on
Is there a point to having a god that does not give you unconditional love?

No, there is no point to having such a God. Who said there's a point? Heck, even if there is a God (or gods or whatever) why would they have to give you unconditional love? Because you'd like it? Because it would give your life meaning? So? Athiests (and agnostics) aren't interested in what should be, or what would nice, or what would give the universe meaning or give their lives a point. They're interested in what actually is. I would love it if there was a guy that would give me unconditional love and everlasting life and 40 virgins in paradise and whatever else religion promises you. That would be great if you ask me. However, I choose to live in reality. That doesn't mean my life has no point or meaning by the way. It means I get to give it whatever meaning or a point I want. Or I can just lie around eating nachos and watching Archie Bunker if I want.

Shit happens, and then you die?

Well yes, if you want to put it like that. I prefer "you get some time on earth, experience whatever life gives you (or what you take from it), hopefully leave things a little better than when you found them, and then you die." But it's really just a variation on the same theme. I'm sorry if it makes your life seem somewhat insignificant. I'm sorry if it's not as nice sounding or comforting as whatever religion you chose to follow tells you is the point of life.

I don't know who has the answers and what they are. But in trying to figure it out, I choose to try and figure out what the answers actually are, whether I like them or not. I don't think up what I would like the answers to be and then go about trying to justify them by whatever means I can.



Expressing myself EVERY day!
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 143 days
Last activity: 143 days
#72 Posted on
Heck, even if there is a God (or gods or whatever) why would they have to give you unconditional love?

I'm guess where I'm coming from is this: Rebelling is easy for me. I've never had a problem saying "Fuck you" to authority, and doing things my own way. Ergh... I can't come up with the right way to this next part. In some part of my mind, I think that God operates in some way based on faith, and everything is going good when I have faith in God, and God's plan for me. (this is a close approximation of how I feel.... sorry, this discussion is stirring my thoughts on what I actually feel/think about religion and how it pertains to me, so I'm describing some of this on the fly...) Anyway, in order for me to have faith in God - the only thing that God can give me that I will exchange for faith in him - is unconditional love. That's how my spirituality works. And if there is a God and God doesn't work that way and damns me to hell because I never accepted his teachings, then I'll happily say, "Fuck you!" and be on my merry way.

However, I choose to live in reality. That doesn't mean my life has no point or meaning by the way. It means I get to give it whatever meaning or a point I want. Or I can just lie around eating nachos and watching Archie Bunker if I want.

Hmmmm, one of my current struggles right now is to give my life the 'meaning', or the motivation that I need get things done. So I guess that's why that stuff about giving your life meaning came across so much in my post. But what about you? How do you give your life meaning? And I'm not trying to say, "Aha! Aren't you really religious, but you're just denying it!", but doesn't giving your own life meaning (which I believe is the way it is/should be done) mean that you have to have faith (in yourself at least) that you're making the right decisions? Just a thought.

I don't think up what I would like the answers to be and then go about trying to justify them by whatever means I can.

Can you clarify this statement? I'm not sure I really understand what you're saying.

Thanks,
Jaguar



"You gotta hate somebody before this is over. Them, me, it doesn't matter."

"Hate, who do I hate? You tell me."

"Who do you love?"

-Wintermute to Case in William Gibson's Neuromancer
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#73 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
    Originally posted by MoeGates

    I don't know who has the answers and what they are. But in trying to figure it out, I choose to try and figure out what the answers actually are, whether I like them or not. I don't think up what I would like the answers to be and then go about trying to justify them by whatever means I can.




Though I don't really want to defend religion, per se, I don't want to defend science either. That may sound stupid to some of you, but our science is not infallible. I like science. I like that science helps us learn things. But to assume that we can even GUESS at gigantic metaphysical truths at this stage in the game is just silly. Is the universe infinite? If it is, can the human brain really wrap itself around the concept of infinity? When did the world begin? Is the universe eternal, like a certain deity or deities? What existed before the universe? I, for one, can't even fathom "nothing," and I don't think anyone else can, either. Concepts of nothing inevitably involve and empty room or a big blank space and, to me, those are still "something." I leave you with this:

"There are two ways to live. One, as if everything is a miracle. Two, as if nothing is."

(I might have botched that a little, so correct away)

and

"We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality."

Both attributable to Albert Einstein, a man who could kick all of our asses on Jeopardy.


(edited for pesky HTML tags)


(edited by PalpatineW on 19.4.02 0029)
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Since: 13.3.02
From: Loveland, OH

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#74 Posted on
    Originally posted by Tha Puerto Rican
    Astrobd, you're an agnostic right?

    Did you look up the site?



I have to agree with Jaguar here, people who lambast christainity and christains thinking that they have all the answers are just practicing a different sort of religion. I will defend evolution, because I think it has A LOT more evidence going for it than a lot of people know. For example, amino acids and lipids, the building blocks of life, have been created in laboratory experiments that recreated the conditions of the early Earth. Every vertebrate animal has a vestigial tail and gill slits (check out pictures of a human embryo and any other vertebrate embryo, they are EERILY similar).

I guess you could say that I am agnostic, but that implies a kind of apathy in todays society. I try to find God in everything, because in my mind God is everything. God is the driving force behind both order and entropy. God is the borders of infinity, and in the actions of the quarks that make up atoms, and the material that makes up quarks. To see God in the way I do (which I guess can be summed up as Deus Ex Machina), is to see God as the glory of everything(and of course "everything" includes "nothing").

My only problem with christianity is how narrowly it views something so vast. If christianity helps you be a better person, then I'm all for that, we are in short supply of good people. I have no beef with christains themselves (well except for a few, but like I've said before, for every asshole christain who tries to 'save' complete strangers there's an asshole athiest who won't associate with anyone who believes in anything other than what they do)

sorry for the rant, but this subject tends to do that to me.

On a side note: In an earlier post I mentioned "Preacher". Has anyone here read that? Once you get past the violence and sex, the heart of the story is about man's relationship with God, and a damn good one at that.

edited for punctuation

(edited by astrobstrd on 19.4.02 0134)

(edited by astrobstrd on 19.4.02 0135)

(edited by astrobstrd on 19.4.02 0136)
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Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 9 days
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#75 Posted on
I don't think up what I would like the answers to be and then go about trying to justify them by whatever means I can.

Can you clarify this statement? I'm not sure I really understand what you're saying.


I'll give it a shot. Here's a question: Would Trish Stratus and Ivory love to go for three-way with me? Now I would love the answer to be yes. However, I don't say "Trish and Ivory would love to go for a three-way with me" and then tell everyone who calls bullshit on me "well, you can't disprove it. Plus the thought of me and Trish and Ivory really gets me through the day and helps give my life meaning, so I'm just going to believe that they do." Now that may make my life better. It may instill me with confidence and make me want to do good deeds. It does not, however, mean Trish and Ivory actually want anything to do my stankin' ass. They may. They probably don't. The fact remains that what I would like to be the truth has no bearing on what actually is the truth.

In this same vein, I would like to go to heaven and have God love me unconditionally. I don't tell everyone who calls bullshit on this "well, you can't disprove it. Plus it really gets me through the day and gives my life meaning, so I'm just going to believe that it does." While beliving this may make my life better, instill me with confidence, and make me want to do good deeds it doesn't make it true.

but doesn't giving your own life meaning (which I believe is the way it is/should be done) mean that you have to have faith (in yourself at least) that you're making the right decisions?

Sure it does. I have faith in myself (for some stuff anyway). Because unlike the nature of God or the meaning of the universe, I actually know and have control over myself. Having faith in yourself is one of those things that both religious and non-religious folks can have or not have.




Expressing myself EVERY day!
Ffej
Boudin rouge








Since: 15.1.02
From: Flatwoods, KY

Since last post: 2267 days
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Y!:
#76 Posted on
I really hate to get in religious arguements because most people are unable to seperate religion from spirituality. God does not confine himself to religion. God, more specifically Jesus, is all about personal relationships and has nothing to do with the rigors, rules, and regulations of religion. Religion is man made, not God made. So all of you who hate religion are very correct. Religion corrupts, contorts, and distorts the truth. Religion is why there are 11 different sects of the Baptist Church. Religion is stupid.

Spirituality on the other hand is whole new ballgame. For those of you find it silly to put faith in God, well nothing is going to change your mind unless some day you open your mind and say I will give this a shot. And I can always see your point, but for those us who are believers we have proof. Unfortunately its darn near impossible for those who need tangible proof to understand, because you don't have proof until you actually accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Do I have something I can show you? No I can't show you my heart, but you can look at my life say wow Ffej is a really happy guy. He has a wife and newborn son and you can tell that guy is just filled with Joy. For believers our proof or evidence lies in our example we set in the way we live our lives. Thats something you can see in every person who is a true believer. Those who actually follow Jesus and aren't religious heretics are NOT judgemental, are very open minded, and always willing to be a friend to everyone.

Do I cuss? Damn right. Do I hate gays? Hell no. Do I hate Guru Zim because he doesnt follow Jesus? Hell no. Do I go around and stand on street corners shouting at passer bys? No. Do I try to force my beliefs on everyone else? No. A true follower of Jesus uses the Joy in their life as their witness and thats what I do everyday. And I do it by being friends with all types of people from all walks of life. And if one person I meet in my life says "Wow that guy is normal and he goes to church, maybe I can be that way too." Than I can hang my hat on that.

Personally I wish we all could believe and live in a happy utopia but that just not possible. God gave humans free will as his greatest gift, thus I honor that. Personally I am happy to read and learn about all the Weiners beliefs. I am happy to live in such a complex world and happy to know all types of people.

In closing, I am not telling any of you to run out and get religion. As someone who is a fervent despiser of religion you won't get that from me. I am not even telling you go read a Bible. I want you all to explore every facet of life (especially college)and live your life as if everyday is your last. I want you to beleive what you want and worship who or what you want. I just beg of you not lump all of us "Jesus Freaks" with the likes of Oral Roberts, or the complete nut Jerry Falwell. We are not all like them. Unfortunately those are the guys who are contreversial so they get on TV and that I am afraid is why Christianity in America is in trouble.



(edited by Ffej on 19.4.02 0627)

(edited by Ffej on 19.4.02 0629)
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Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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Y!:
#77 Posted on

    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    enough. I encourage anyone who believes in superstition to actually get an education and learn the truth about science.
Oops.



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MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 9 days
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#78 Posted on
On a side note: In an earlier post I mentioned "Preacher". Has anyone here read that? Once you get past the violence and sex, the heart of the story is about man's relationship with God, and a damn good one at that.

Yes! I love Preacher (I also loved Hellblazer when Garth Ennis was writing that). I've got to say though, that comic was only about man's relationship with God for the first 30 or so issues. At the end, it was really all about man's relationship with his fellow man (and woman). The relationship between Jessie, his G-friend, and the Vampire (I'm sorry I can't remember the names right now) was the whole plot for the last part of the series. The whole "Genesis" and "searching for God" thing got completely pushed to the. In fact, I'm still pissed we didn't get a real resolution on that whole thing.

Moe



Expressing myself EVERY day!
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3420 days
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#79 Posted on
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    enough. I encourage anyone who believes in superstition to actually get an education and learn the truth about science.

    Don't believe what you've been told. The church IS trying to control you with lies.

    Science is not fake. It would be stupid to sit here on a computer and rail back at me about how scientists are liars and the pawns of Satan. Show me something that you have done that proves you are as smart as the scientists that say evolution is real, and I'll hold your opinion on the same level as theirs.

    (edited by Guru Zim on 18.4.02 1037)



Guru,

Sorry I was gone for a day and could not get back to your other response. Since a seemingly robust discussion has popped up in my absense, let me just say one more thing on the evolution question and let you have the last word if you wish.

The point of a critic like Johnson is that when you want to know how it is that random, natural processes can explain the myriad of complex organs and organisims in the natural world, it doesn't help to say that it *must* have been a random, natural process because these are the only ones we are allowed to have working in "science". If you are trying to really be objective, you are going to be left with more questions than answers at that point, because you clearly have a whole lot of philosophy being injected into "objective, verifiable science" at that point. The main point of Johnson's book is that evolutionists think just like that in their theory. (Interestingly enough, in the wake of his book there have been some major evolutionists who have come out and admitted just as much, that the theory is ultimately based upon controversial metaphysical assumptions that may not be proveable. Harvard's Richard Lewontin has probably been most candid, writing that evolutionists do this because they do not want to "allow a Divine foot in the door.")

Now I understand that many say, "Look, science has to work in this way in order to expain as much as possible according to natural laws. Thus, we assume naturalism and see how far we can get." The problem with that is, when taken to the extreme, you can obviously *GET REALLY FAR* when you never allow any other type of theory to ever be considered. If you have already decided in your mind that it must be a naturalistic theory that explains life, then your responses to the evidence becomes very tortured. Thus, you see very intelligent authorities like Steven Jay Gould and Richard Dawkins using the classic "God wouldn't have done it that way" argument, for example, as if that is some kind of scientific argument for evolutionairy processes. The problem is not that these men are not smart people Guru, it is that they are being blinded by a whole lot of materialistic philosophical prejudice in their pronouncements. If you can't believe it is possible that some hip academics in universities who wear nice tweed jackets may be biased and are only allowing for one view to be heard, and shut out any other explanations for life as "superstition," then I don't know what else to tell you, because that is exactaly what has been going on. Fortunately there are signs it may be changing, and the academic authorities may be proven wrong once again.

DMC

(edited by DMC on 19.4.02 0956)
"Blinded by her sight, it's the darkness in her eyes that so enslaves me. But if my love is blind, then I don't want to see, she's a mystery to me." -Roy Orbison, Mystery Girl, written by Bono and The Edge
astrobstrd
Bockwurst








Since: 13.3.02
From: Loveland, OH

Since last post: 2525 days
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#80 Posted on

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    On a side note: In an earlier post I mentioned "Preacher". Has anyone here read that? Once you get past the violence and sex, the heart of the story is about man's relationship with God, and a damn good one at that.

    Yes! I love Preacher (I also loved Hellblazer when Garth Ennis was writing that). I've got to say though, that comic was only about man's relationship with God for the first 30 or so issues. At the end, it was really all about man's relationship with his fellow man (and woman). The relationship between Jessie, his G-friend, and the Vampire (I'm sorry I can't remember the names right now) was the whole plot for the last part of the series. The whole "Genesis" and "searching for God" thing got completely pushed to the. In fact, I'm still pissed we didn't get a real resolution on that whole thing.

    Moe



I agree that at times it got pushed to the side, but the end still had to with the reason behind God's creation of the universe (and who was waiting for him when he got back to heaven). He also bit Jessie's eye out relatively late in the series. My absolute favorite issue though was the one where Cassidy met all the vampire wannabes in New Orleans.

originally posted by DMC (sorry, I'm an html retard or I would quote it)

"The point of a critic like Johnson is that when you want to know how it is that random, natural processes can explain the myriad of complex organs and organisims in the natural world, it doesn't help to say that it *must* have been a random, natural process because these are the only ones we are allowed to have working in "science". If you are trying to really be objective, you are going to be left with more questions than answers at that point, because you clearly have a whole lot of philosophy being injected into "objective, verifiable science" at that point. The main point of Johnson's book is that evolutionists think just like that in their theory. (Interestingly enough, in the wake of his book there have been some major evolutionists who have come out and admitted just as much, that the theory is ultimately based upon controversial metaphysical assumptions that may not be proveable. Harvard's Richard Lewontin has probably been most candid, writing that evolutionists do this because they do not want to "allow a Divine foot in the door.")"

The only problem I have with this is that christains tend to constantly rewrite what science they will or won't accept. For example, most christains today don't believe that the earth is 6000 years old or exists at the center of the solar system. They also, for the most part, believe in dinosaurs. The bible is very specific on these issues though. It seems that when presented with scientific facts that don't conform with the bible's standards, most christains go through the classic: denial, anger, and acceptance stages of psychotherapy.

Sure a few prominent scientists disagree with evolution as it is presented. A few prominent scientist also believe that the Earth is hollow. 99.999 percent of biologists, geologists, and anthropologists maintain that at least the fundamentals of evolution are right. There is still much to learn, but we have more than enough evidence to base other research around it (the Green Revolution and DNA research for example).





"Your mother ate my dog!"

"Well...not all of it."

4/3/02-"Your undisputed randomly selected wiener of the day"
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Something happens six years ago, and somehow, you are relating it to THIS administration? Explain how that works. Explain how most national insurance companies are now allowing coverage for same sex couples. That was unheard of 6 years ago.
- StaggerLee, The Yankees are coming! (2004)
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