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The W - Current Events & Politics - Easter & God: The Politics (Page 3)
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Zeruel
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
I do not beleave in a "Higher Power"

I do not beleave in a "Heaven" or "Hell"

I do not beleave in an "Afterlife"

I do not beleave there is a person waving a finger at me from a couple of thousand years ago.

I do have a sense of right and wrong

I do beleave that sex is natural between 2 or more adults [but let's keep it safe people], and there is nothing wrong with it.

I do beleave people should not be judged on their race, age, sex, or what is the sex of the person who diddles their genitials.

I do beleave it's silly to follow a book blindly and to follow a person who died for your sins [not mine]

but

they had some good ideas, as most of our laws are based in religion [like murder and whatnot]

The Puerto Rican nailed the reason I don't follow any religion, they were formed by primitive minds thousands of years ago...an eclipise of the sun was thought to be the sun god punishing us; floods were thought to be anger from the gods; but just like TPR said, we evolve and realize that some of those things are silly, and I happen to think that religion is one of those "Silly" things...

I'm not going to say that TPR is wasting his life by being catholic [right? i can't remember if that's his religion, too lazy to check] it's his choice and and if it makes him happy, great.

Religion just isn't for me, and if for some reason i get too drunk to pull out/use a rubber and have a kid, well, that kid will be raised un-religiously. when i ask people why they started to go to church/temple/whatever it's because they've always done it when they were a kid.

Just like child abuse, i'm breaking the chain...
just my 2 cents

still waiting for the unreligious money from the Fed...wasn't there a seperation from church and [federal] state?





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Since: 9.12.01
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#42 Posted on
I believe your spelling is atrocious. ;-)



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DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

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#43 Posted on
I personally would still like to see a religious discussion forum opened up here so those of us who *are* believers can present the reasons why we do without worrying about going out of a thread. If the types of issues we have been bringing up here in the Politics forum can be discussed with some amount of civility then I think it could fly.

DMC



"MEAN.....WOOOOO! GENE!" -the beginning of every Flair promo in the WCW
Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#44 Posted on
I like your optimism, but...

This isn't really a religion forum, you know? It's about pro-wrestling. The other stuff is there to fill the time when wrestling isn't giving enough for day to day conversation.

I really don't want to start an all out religious discussion. Especially since I'd have to destroy everything you keep holy



I love it when a plan comes together
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3533 days
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#45 Posted on
I'd like to see it, Guru, bring it on! (Shamful attempt to get you to change your mind.) Last I recall you were not able to answer Phillip Johnson's critique of Darwinism--did you read his book and change your mind yet? (Another shameful attempt).

DMC



"MEAN.....WOOOOO! GENE!" -the beginning of every Flair promo in the WCW
Tha Puerto Rican
Bauerwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: New York City, USA

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#46 Posted on
I don't know. Maybe RikoDoaen is right about religion being the creation of primitive minds to explain the world, but, if you look at it, Jesus was ahead of his time. Talking about loving one another, doing good, the people really had no idea what he was talking about until he died. Jesus was too smart to be fake and the Bible has to be true because for a book written before the invention of the printing press, it is really good. Jesus was special. And why would they lie? What would they have to gain? It was written in the 8th century! It's not like today. If you want to know what I'm talking about, go to Yahoo, type "Is there a God" and check a site about a scientist who says he can PROVE there is no God (what an asshole) but read more and you'll get piss off to.


Any why people fight over religion is ridiocolous. WE ALL WORSHIP THE SAME GOD JUST DIFFERENT NAMES!!
And the Jewish God was the first God to be just one. Before there were gods, but this was just one. If that is fake, then Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Peter, St. John, Joan Of Arc, St. Peter, St. Francis, Joseph, Mary, St. Stephen, etc. all have pretty good imaginations.



THa Puerto Rican

LWO 4-Life

God bless the internet.
Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#47 Posted on

    Originally posted by DMC
    I'd like to see it, Guru, bring it on! (Shamful attempt to get you to change your mind.) Last I recall you were not able to answer Phillip Johnson's critique of Darwinism--did you read his book and change your mind yet? (Another shameful attempt).

    DMC



You have a very selective memory, my friend. I don't believe that I was failing to answer your critiques; I believe you were failing to accept my answers



I love it when a plan comes together
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3533 days
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#48 Posted on
Just a slight correction to The Puerto Rican: the New Testament was not written in the 8th century, it was written in the 1st, much closer to the time of the events it describes. Thus, another reason it is not a complete fake.

Guru, the reason I didn't accept your answers is the same reason Johnson doesn't--they are based upon a prior assumption of naturalistic philosophy, and I and other critics want reasons why we should accept naturalism. That is the thesis of Johnson's book (*Darwin on Trial*--read the 1992 edition where he answers critics of the first), and where his background as a law professor helps him bring a stinging rebuke of evolution. He is dealing with the *logic* of the entire argument in a sense of soundness, not the internal validity of all types of evolutionary answers that can be given to deal with problems in the evidence.

DMC



"Blinded by her sight, it's the darkness in her eyes that so enslaves me. But if my love is blind, then I don't want to see, she's a mystery to me." -Roy Orbison, Mystery Girl, written by Bono and The Edge
Tha Puerto Rican
Bauerwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: New York City, USA

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#49 Posted on
Didn't centuries begin when Jesus was born right?

Did you look up tha site?



THa Puerto Rican

LWO 4-Life

God bless the internet.
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
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Since: 9.12.01
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#50 Posted on
All I can say is consider the source.

I will take the word of scientists and scientific journals on evolution over apologetics written published by a bible institute.

If you are going to argue that its a matter of faith - then fine.

I will put my faith in the scientific method - education, intelligence, learning, and reproducable experiments - over a talking ass, burning bushes, speaking serpents, flooding worlds, an ark full of every species of animal on the planet, giants, whales that swallow men whole and spit them up, conversations between the God and Devil written authoratatively like someone was there (see the book of Job), resurrection, etc.

If you choose to believe in fairy tales I can't convince you of the truth.





I love it when a plan comes together
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#51 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
I just don't understand how any intelligent person can rely on blind faith to guide them through life. I need a little, you know, evidence of something before I devote my life to it.

Any person can sit down and write a fable or describe a fantasy world where men part seas and walk across flames. That doesn't make it true.



Caring is the first step towards disappointment.
BDC
Chourico








Since: 26.1.02
From: Falls Church, VA

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#52 Posted on

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    I just don't understand how any intelligent person can rely on blind faith to guide them through life. I need a little, you know, evidence of something before I devote my life to it.

    Any person can sit down and write a fable or describe a fantasy world where men part seas and walk across flames. That doesn't make it true.



It's not blind faith. We have evidence, and we call it The Bible, a book hated throughout the centuries yet never disproven, but the facts contained therein proven time and again through the very scientific processes (anthropology, archaeology, historical records) that some people point to as the only ultimate truth. Those of us who believe in the Word of God fulfilled in the life of Jesus Christ have evidence in the way that He works in people's lives every day.

Do you not find it strange that although the New Testament was written in the first hundred years after Jesus' death, that it has not been disproven, only reaffirmed? Do you think that leaders of the day, the Jewish Pharisees, the Roman Emperors and provincial governors...with so much to lose if Jesus was who He said He was--these people who did everything in their power to stomp out Christianity from its inception--didn't try to disprove the very facts that early Christians were hanging their hats on, the very facts We Christians hang our hats on today? Can we just say that the 1st and 2nd Centuries made a collective "d'oh!" in that respect? I don't think we can.

Critics point to the Resurrection and say it didn't happen. Well, The Bible says it did; the people living at the time believe it did. There's no evidence contrary that says it didn't. So how is treating The Bible as a work of historical truth any different than reading Plutarch's Parallel Lives to learn about the lives of say, Pyrrhus or Alexander and trusting that text to be at all accurate written about events that took place centuries before the birth of Jesus by a guy who was a contemporary of the authors of The New Testament? There is no difference.

BDC



"Hitler had pieces of flair that he made the Jews wear."
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#53 Posted on
Riki: How do you reconcile your previous post with your belief in paganism, and the magickal rites therein?



It's time to party/let's party/party with yourself and have a crazy party

The Immortal Andrew WK, Poet and Philosopher
astrobstrd
Bockwurst








Since: 13.3.02
From: Loveland, OH

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#54 Posted on
Here is basically where I stand on religion. At its earliest it began as a way to explain thing to a species that was gaining a new cognition of itself and its place in the universe. When you begin to realize that you are going to die and that your birth is not the beginning of time, you need immediate answers or you will fall into apathy. Therefore, to give themselves a sense of purpose, man created life and death myths. "Wise men" and chiefs turned these simple life and death myths into a set of rules and guidelines to live by that suited the culture. Religion provided structure and the basis of law, but at the cost of free will. When a set of beliefs is at the heart of a culture, people will try very hard to defend it. All of the Christians here say that the New Testament hasn't been *proven* false. Well guess what? Neither have the Vedas, the Torah, or the Koran, but they all claim to be right.

I'm not saying there isn't a god or a *master plan*, just that if there is, its not likely that it is as culturally specific as Christians would like to say it is (not culturally specific you say? When did Yhwh ever talk to the Chinese? or the Aztecs? I guess he just wanted their pagan asses in hell). If there is a creator, remember what a huge feat creation is. To try to imply that someone who not only knows Everything but made it all too, cares about where I stick my wang or whether I talk to him every night is absurd. It would be like me laying out ground rules for ameoba, which in essence is what we are to something that powerful.

I know I'm ranting here, but just one last point. Haven't Christains been trying to stamp out paganism for I don't know...1500 fucking years...kind of invalidate the whole "romans and pharaohs couldn't stop christianity" argument

(edited by astrobstrd on 18.4.02 0058)

(edited by astrobstrd on 18.4.02 0059)
"Your mother ate my dog!" "Well...not all of it." 4/3/02-"Your undisputed randomly selected wiener of the day"
BDC
Chourico








Since: 26.1.02
From: Falls Church, VA

Since last post: 4523 days
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#55 Posted on

    Originally posted by astrobstrd
    Here is basically where I stand on religion. At its earliest it began as a way to explain thing to a species that was gaining a new cognition of itself and its place in the universe. When you begin to realize that you are going to die and that your birth is not the beginning of time, you need immediate answers or you will fall into apathy. Therefore, to give themselves a sense of purpose, man created life and death myths. "Wise men" and chiefs turned these simple life and death myths into a set of rules and guidelines to live by that suited the culture. Religion provided structure and the basis of law, but at the cost of free will. When a set of beliefs is at the heart of a culture, people will try very hard to defend it. All of the Christians here say that the New Testament hasn't been *proven* false. Well guess what? Neither have the Vedas, the Torah, or the Koran, but they all claim to be right.

    I'm not saying there isn't a god or a *master plan*, just that if there is, its not likely that it is as culturally specific as Christians would like to say it is (not culturally specific you say? When did Yhwh ever talk to the Chinese? or the Aztecs? I guess he just wanted their pagan asses in hell). If there is a creator, remember what a huge feat creation is. To try to imply that someone who not only knows Everything but made it all too, cares about where I stick my wang or whether I talk to him every night is absurd. It would be like me laying out ground rules for ameoba, which in essence is what we are to something that powerful.

    I know I'm ranting here, but just one last point. Haven't Christains been trying to stamp out paganism for I don't know...1500 fucking years...kind of invalidate the whole "romans and pharaohs couldn't stop christianity" argument

    (edited by astrobstrd on 18.4.02 0058)

    (edited by astrobstrd on 18.4.02 0059)



It's absurd to believe a Creator made everything to work out *just* right, but its not absurd to believe that the fact that a human being is the most complex array of functions came about through some kind of random chance? Where is the junkyard of failed experiments? Is it random chance or evolution that the only species capable of higher order thinking is the human race? To me, the prima facie evidence--the world around us--and its perfect order points to a beginning and a Creator of that beginning.

As far as Aztecs or the Chinese, the Bible says that at the judgment, no man can claim to be unfairly judge even if he has not heard the Word because he cannot even live up to his own standard. If there is a perfect sinless person in the Amazon who has yet to hear the Word, then I'll see that person in heaven. But there isn't.

Christianity is dependent upon free will. It was Adam and Eve's free will to commit original sin. The key phrase of Christianity, John 3:16 expressly makes the case for free will when it says that "...whoever shall believe in him...." It's a choice we all get to make, a gift we all can choose or refuse to accept. Yes, I believe God has a plan for my life, but I make the choices as to whether I follow that plan.

Christianity, by the standard of religious evolution stated above, is then the anti-religion. While arising out of Jewish law, it is a rejection of the strict adherence to the minutia of Jewish law...to place an emphasis not on law, but on love...love of neighbor, of God.

Regarding the factuality of the Vedas and the Koran as opposed to the Torah and New Testament, it is not merely the fact that these texts have not been disproven that somehow that means they are all equally valid, and since logically there can only be one truth, they must all be false. Wrong. The Bible has not been disproven as an historical text...something that the Vedas and the Koran are not. That's an important distinction.

Finally, as far as stomping out paganism and the fact that there are still pagans as a parallel to the fact that Christianity hasn't been disproven...that's ridiculous. There's nothing in paganism to disprove. The point still remains that as a threat to the established order, it makes no sense that individuals like Nero would make a point to murder Christians, but yet make no effort to destroy the roots of what they believed.





"Hitler had pieces of flair that he made the Jews wear."
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 256 days
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#56 Posted on
As far as Aztecs or the Chinese, the Bible says that at the judgment, no man can claim to be unfairly judge even if he has not heard the Word because he cannot even live up to his own standard. If there is a perfect sinless person in the Amazon who has yet to hear the Word, then I'll see that person in heaven. But there isn't.

What? I don't think I get this statement at all. Are you saying that people who were never exposed to The Word still have to abide by The Word or else they're going to Hell? Am I reading you right?



Christianity, by the standard of religious evolution stated above, is then the anti-religion. While arising out of Jewish law, it is a rejection of the strict adherence to the minutia of Jewish law...to place an emphasis not on law, but on love...love of neighbor, of God.

Now this just seems like complete bullshit to me. I understand what you're trying to say, and I'd even like to think that one day Christianity would actually focus on love for oneself, your fellow humans, nature, and God. But this is not how it's presented today, and for most history. It's presented as laws. If you break those laws you go to hell. And while I agree with some of those laws (Don't go fucking killing people idiots!) I think others are way outdated or were bullshit in the first place. But of course for thinking that, I get put in hell. Where's the love in that?

-Jag



"You gotta hate somebody before this is over. Them, me, it doesn't matter."

"Hate, who do I hate? You tell me."

"Who do you love?"

-Wintermute to Case in William Gibson's Neuromancer
Qubber
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Since: 7.1.02
From: Sheffield, UK

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#57 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.00
Why is it that a lot of people from both sides refuse to accept the possibilty that Creationism and Evolution don't have to be mutually exclusive? In the way that I employ electricity to light a room, couldn't it be that God uses Evolution as a means to create?

Take the basic assumed steps of evolution: basic cells in a primordial soup > sea life/plants > land life/mammals > finally man. Isn't that what takes place in the Creation story? All you need to do is not take the story absolutely literally, if I said "In the Dinosaurs day" I wouldn't mean "on Tuesday" I would mean a great period of time, which would allow for the six day creation period to take place over millenia, as evolution did. I don't see that the two schools of thought exclude each other at all, just that maybe in the way we are taught we are encouraged to cling to one theory as fact over the other, much in the same way Christianity/Islam/Judaism encourages clinging to only one religion despite the fact that all of their holy books contain the same God/Prophets/Stories for the most part, albeit under different names (neither Islam or Judaism dispute Christ's existence, or his status as a prophet for instance).

All I'm saying is does believing in Science mean you cannot believe in Religion and vice versa? I don't think it does.



"Nobody enjoys a good time more than I do, but this business of yours is as legitimate as a three-legged donkey...which of course is illegitimate because as we all know donkeys have four legs."

Lance Storm, 21st January 2002.
astrobstrd
Bockwurst








Since: 13.3.02
From: Loveland, OH

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#58 Posted on
"It's absurd to believe a Creator made everything to work out *just* right, but its not absurd to believe that the fact that a human being is the most complex array of functions came about through some kind of random chance? Where is the junkyard of failed experiments? Is it random chance or evolution that the only species capable of higher order thinking is the human race? To me, the prima facie evidence--the world around us--and its perfect order points to a beginning and a Creator of that beginning"

Originally posted by BDC

Does 99.9999% of all species that ever existed being extinct count as a junkyard of failed experiments? How about the 3 or 4 races of extinct humans?



"Your mother ate my dog!"

"Well...not all of it."

4/3/02-"Your undisputed randomly selected wiener of the day"
Scar
Goetta








Since: 2.1.02
From: NS, Canada

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#59 Posted on
What I want to know is why Jesus picked such as shitty time to show up? At least now we could take a picture or something.
But anyways...
Religion all over is on a huge decline. Why? Because more people are in school and learning that there is alot of better answers to question than: "It is God's will". You know why people say do not take the bible literally: because ever since some things in it were disproved, they backpedaled and said that it should not be taken literally.
As a whole while most of manking has become better informed, educated, and more modern not one miracle has occured. But yet we are supposed to believe that they had happened in the past.
Interesting correlation as intelligence (as in we know alot more) goes up miracles go down.

So basically mankind is alot smarter now and better prepared if something like someone walking on water happened now. Will it? Nope. Why? Probably never happened in the first place.

However, I do believe in God. Not as the bible tells it though. I just believe that there is a creator, and that probably hasn't done much since.



Apparently the only one who likes the new belt.
BDC
Chourico








Since: 26.1.02
From: Falls Church, VA

Since last post: 4523 days
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#60 Posted on
    Originally posted by astrobstrd
    "It's absurd to believe a Creator made everything to work out *just* right, but its not absurd to believe that the fact that a human being is the most complex array of functions came about through some kind of random chance? Where is the junkyard of failed experiments? Is it random chance or evolution that the only species capable of higher order thinking is the human race? To me, the prima facie evidence--the world around us--and its perfect order points to a beginning and a Creator of that beginning"

    Originally posted by BDC

    Does 99.9999% of all species that ever existed being extinct count as a junkyard of failed experiments? How about the 3 or 4 races of extinct humans?



No, because each thing that was living--until you can prove to me otherwise was a fully functioning "thing." The Dodo isn't extinct because its organs weren't fully functioning or there was some kind of error in its processing like a first-run prototype of the internal combustion engine.

As far as the exclusivity of creationism and evolution per se, I don't think that's the debate. Its the difference between creationism and MACRO-evolution. I firmly believe that MICRO-evolution exists. Within the species created by God, time and circumstance has adapted them to survive within their environment--hence, the altered beaks on finches. However, to take that minute observation and then apply it to a concept that "In the beginning there was goo" and that gave way to oceans and plants which somehow gave way to fish that came to land all the way to my great great great to the nth grandaddy was Koko the gorilla...that's such an illogical stretch.

To respond to Jaguar (I think), no I'm not saying that people who have never been exposed to the Word still have to live up to it. What I said, and what the Bible says is that no man will be unfairly judged because they fail to live up their own standard. With the Word or without, all humans fail, i.e. sin..whether its God's standard or one's own.

As far as Christianity being a set of laws, you're wrong in thinking about it in that way. Certain people within the church certainly are legalistic--that's always been the case in all religions; what Christianity is, however, is the personal relationship with Jesus Christ by accepting him as the Messiah--the ticket to heaven, as it were. That's the one rule. The other rules, the 10 Commandments and stuff...as Christians you want to follow them, obviously, but once you've punched your ticket, that's it. God doesn't revoke it. The thing is, the transformation that takes place creates a mental shift--instead of saying, Gosh, there's a ton of rules that I HAVE to follow, its...Jesus set a standard of goodness that I WANT to achieve, and there are some rules set out that can help me do that so I can love my neighbor as myself and love the Lord God with all my heart.

BDC

(edited by BDC on 18.4.02 1000)

(edited by BDC on 18.4.02 1002)
"Hitler had pieces of flair that he made the Jews wear."
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Some people might say that it's a sign of a good compromise if both sides are irritated, but I'd say it's a sign that this was a really horrible deal in general.
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