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The W - Current Events & Politics - Easter & God: The Politics
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BDC
Chourico








Since: 26.1.02
From: Falls Church, VA

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#1 Posted on
Travis: A bible study has no place in a government office, subsidized by my tax dollars.

I don't go to church and pitch my hard earned money into your collection plate, why should MY earned dollars go to fund cult activities?

Can you imagine the brick all the O'Reilly-ites would collectively shit if the government subsidized or publicly endorsed an Islamic or Hindi organization?

Point of reference as to where Bush's interests lie: after the September incidents, the event to "promote religious unity" wasn't held at a neutral location, it was held in a Xian (Catholic?) building, and predominantly celebatory of Western mainstream religions.


First, the only way you'd be "subsidizing" a Bible study is if hourly wage employees are involved in it, and thus worshipping while possibly on the clock. And if you're worried about government employees sucking up your tax dollars, there are SOOOO many more areas of waste you should be worried about, not whether a small group of people hang out together for 30 minutes during a day. What if a practicing Muslim were elected to the Presidency or appointed to a high office? I absolutely don't see how anyone could oppose his prayer rituals--which would have to come at some point while he was at work--and I don't see how anyone would see that act as an endorsement of Islam as the "State's" religion.

Second, the government isn't endorsing any religion. So Ashcroft and Bush have a specific one that they talk about. Obviously they believe theirs is the right one, otherwise they wouldn't believe in it...but their administration or our government hasn't ever said that the faiths they believe in or practice are the only ones acceptable for you and for me. If the government endorsed or subsidized any specific religion, I think more than O'Reilly-ites, whatever those are, would be upset.

Finally, so what if a post-9/11 ceremony took place in a particular church and discussed mostly Western religions? Make a point, please.

BDC



"Hitler had pieces of flair that he made the Jews wear."
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TheBucsFan
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Since: 2.1.02

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
The fact that the Government wastes money in several others is not justification for throwing money away in this instance.

"Finally, so what if a post-9/11 ceremony took place in a particular church and discussed mostly Western religions? Make a point, please. "

This is the same as the government endorsing certain religions, which they clearly have no right to do. I think organized religion is hipocritical and phony on so many levels that I certainly don't want my money going towards it when the Government has no right to do so.



Caring is the first step towards disappointment.
Tha Puerto Rican
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Since: 23.1.02
From: New York City, USA

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#3 Posted on
I think organized religion is hipocritical and phony on so many levels that I certainly don't want my money going towards it when the Government has no right to do so.

Why do you think organized religion is hyprocritical and phony?

Also, Bush and Aschroft not shoving religion down our throats? Then why have they arrested 5,000 Middle Eastern and Muslim people? BEcause of their religion! They believe Islam is evil!



(edited by Tha Puerto Rican on 1.4.02 1734)
THa Puerto Rican LWO 4-Life
TheBucsFan
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Since: 2.1.02

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42

    Originally posted by Tha Puerto Rican
    Why do you think organized religion is hyprocritical and phony?


We live in a society founded on freedom and democracy. History classes in our public schools cast a negative light on the dictators of the world's history who have punished others for simply believing differently from them. Yet millions of people openly believe in and/or worship one.

In most religions, those who follow a god other than the God of the given religion will be punished. If I spend my lifetime blatantly disregarding anything and everything said in the bible, what would happen to me? I would be sent to Hell because I did not choose to live my life the way a dictator commanded me to. Everybody wants freedom, except when the freedom does not deny them what they think is right. Nobody complains about a dictator who lives the same way they do.



Caring is the first step towards disappointment.
210
Blutwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: St Paul, MN

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
Last time I checked, our *dictator* has yet to demand participation in Christianity.

Non believeing is one thing, but being melodramatic and saying that your basically a martyr for independent non believers is another. The world is not against you.

(edited by 210 on 2.4.02 0045)
MINNESOTA IS SO HOTT
BDC
Chourico








Since: 26.1.02
From: Falls Church, VA

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#6 Posted on

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    The fact that the Government wastes money in several others is not justification for throwing money away in this instance.

    "Finally, so what if a post-9/11 ceremony took place in a particular church and discussed mostly Western religions? Make a point, please. "

    This is the same as the government endorsing certain religions, which they clearly have no right to do. I think organized religion is hipocritical and phony on so many levels that I certainly don't want my money going towards it when the Government has no right to do so.



But where are they wasting money here? It's Ashcroft and a handful of people in his office for like 30 minutes in the morning before the work day begins. What is being wasted? Time?

It is absolutely not endorsing certain religions. So Bush has a ceremony that focuses on Christianity, Judaism, and Islam...big deal. These are the major religions of the United States. Should the event have consisted of words from Native American shamans, voodoo priests, Buddhist monks, scientologists, shintos, Satanists, atheists, Jedi Knights, and whatever else is out there? Should they have been able to take a bow from the front pew? So they didn't get speaking roles, or didn't even get mentioned. SO WHAT. I'm not seeing where people who practice every religion not specifically mentioned in that ceremony or any other Bush has attended or speech he's made are now being oppressed by our government.

When the first Vishnu doll is comfiscated or Buddhist shrine is desecrated by the government of the United States, then your religious fear-mongering will be justified. Until then, your paranoia is completely irrational.

Tha Puerto Rican:Also, Bush and Aschroft not shoving religion down our throats? Then why have they arrested 5,000 Middle Eastern and Muslim people? BEcause of their religion! They believe Islam is evil!

You are a child, so I'm tempted to give you a pass, but kid, wisen up. If Al Qaida, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Hamas, and other terrorist organizations consisted of a bunch of three-headed baboons, then 5,000 three-headed baboons would have been arrested. Unfortunately, these groups preach and are based on a radical interpretation of the Islamic faith. So people suspected of being involved with terrorism or know something about terrorist activities--most of them happen to be Muslims...too bad, so sad. If the arrests take place in the U.S., and these people are here legally, then my only concern would be due process. If the law is followed in arresting these people, big deal. We're fighting a war, and the people we're fighting happen to practice a certain version of a certain religion...its not up to the U.S. to make sure Islam's reputation remains unscathed--That's up to the Muslims worldwide.

The Bucsfan:We live in a society founded on freedom and democracy. History classes in our public schools cast a negative light on the dictators of the world's history who have punished others for simply believing differently from them. Yet millions of people openly believe in and/or worship one.

In most religions, those who follow a god other than the God of the given religion will be punished. If I spend my lifetime blatantly disregarding anything and everything said in the bible, what would happen to me? I would be sent to Hell because I did not choose to live my life the way a dictator commanded me to. Everybody wants freedom, except when the freedom does not deny them what they think is right. Nobody complains about a dictator who lives the same way they do.


Wow...that is some logic. The difference between actual dictators and the "dictatorship of religion" is so obvious I can't believe you constructed the analogy. Dictators actually oppress the people under their rule. They shape the people's lives according to their own ideals, they severely punish those who do not follow. In the religions you deride, no one on earth oppresses you. You are absolutely free to say what you want, type what you want about whatever you want save for what is illegal. Sure, if you don't believe what I believe, I believe that at the judgment you'll get what you deserve. But that's all God. I, as a human being, don't have anything to do with that. And if you don't believe in it, then you don't have anything to worry about, because you won't be going where I believe you're going. So where's the oppression?

BDC



"Hitler had pieces of flair that he made the Jews wear."
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
    Originally posted by 210
    Last time I checked, our *dictator* has yet to demand participation in Christianity.

    Non believeing is one thing, but being melodramatic and saying that your basically a martyr for independent non believers is another. The world is not against you.

    (edited by 210 on 2.4.02 0045)



I'm not calling anyone a martyr, because to do that I would have to believe a word of it. My attitude is more "Even if there was a God, I wouldn't live by HIS guidelines anyway." I hate saying it this way because it makes me sound like I'm just rebelling for the hell of it, but that isn't the case.

I never said your God demanded participation, but those who choose to not participate are punished in the end.


    It is absolutely not endorsing certain religions. So Bush has a ceremony that focuses on Christianity, Judaism, and Islam...big deal


So, if a ceremony celebrating whites, blacks and hispanics were held by the government, asians have no reason to be upset?


    Wow...that is some logic. The difference between actual dictators and the "dictatorship of religion" is so obvious I can't believe you constructed the analogy. Dictators actually oppress the people under their rule. They shape the people's lives according to their own ideals, they severely punish those who do not follow. In the religions you deride, no one on earth oppresses you. You are absolutely free to say what you want, type what you want about whatever you want save for what is illegal. Sure, if you don't believe what I believe, I believe that at the judgment you'll get what you deserve. But that's all God. I, as a human being, don't have anything to do with that. And if you don't believe in it, then you don't have anything to worry about, because you won't be going where I believe you're going. So where's the oppression?


The oppression is not the problem. As you said, I fear it not because I don't believe it anyway. I was pointing out the hypocracy in living in the free world and following this. So my rights are secured on Earth? As you said, after that I will get my punishment eventually because, hey, I don't believe in your God.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 2.4.02 0657)
Caring is the first step towards disappointment.
Ffej
Boudin rouge








Since: 15.1.02
From: Flatwoods, KY

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Y!:
#8 Posted on

    Originally posted by BDC

      Sure, if you don't believe what I believe, I believe that at the judgment you'll get what you deserve. But that's all God. I, as a human being, don't have anything to do with that. And if you don't believe in it, then you don't have anything to worry about, because you won't be going where I believe you're going. So where's the oppression?

      BDC



    Wow you had me liking your arguement until right there. As a Christian I must say this is why people like TheBucsFan don't go to church and despise organized religion. Last time I checked its not our place to tell anyone where they are going. As Christians its our place to share the reality of God's love. God isn't about a bunch of rules, he is much bigger than that. And as humans we certainly have no right to tell ANYONE they are going to hell. Last time I checked Jesus LOVED everyone and I don't remember him even telling Judas when he would get his. If, as Christians, we are to strive to be like Jesus then judging others will get us nowhere and certainly not spread his word to the ends of the earth as he asked of us.

    Love the sinner, hate the sin.





    I think if you are in the passing lane, and not passing, your license should be revoked, and you should be forced to ride the bus until you promise to never delay the rest of us again.
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Travis
Boerewors








Since: 7.3.02
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#9 Posted on
I have no idea why it never ocurred to me previously, but born-again type Xians are never going to disagree with Bush and his cronies attempting to convert our country into a church state- they'd benefit the most from a theocracy.
My point is that this country's government shouldn't be endorsing ANY religion, it should be totally neutral and without a position on the matter. Instead we have our toolbox of a president making speeches and using terms like "faith based" in regards to policy.
The truly sad part is that we have to view a guy like Ashcroft (who believes that DANCING is evil) as an authority figure. I for one am just not a fan of having my nation helmed by a bunch of ridiculous superstitious blowhards who are looking to better our world by going on (in Bush's own words) "Crusade"s.
However I suppose it's sort of like rooting for your favorite team. I'm wound up that the Orioles won yesterday, but the majority (Yankee fans) are probably bitter. The Xians couldn't be happier to have the religious right in power...I, as a rational amoralist, couldn't be more disappointed in all of the fools who voted them into power.

"Hell is for children."

(edited by Travis on 2.4.02 0949)
Stop pretending you don't wanna be ME. Randomwrestling: Not only do we actually know who Chris Hamrick is, but we know he sucks!
210
Blutwurst








Since: 2.1.02
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
The Xians couldn't be happier to have the religious right in power...I, as a rational amoralist, couldn't be more disappointed in all the fools who voted them into power.




I stand in awe of your brilliance. *clap clap clap*




MINNESOTA IS SO HOTT
tarnish
Frankfurter








Since: 13.2.02
From: Back in the Heart of Hali

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Y!:
#11 Posted on

As much as I'm not a fan of organized religion for myself, and as much as I don't like that the religious Christian right is technically in power in the USA, I think holding up the service after September 11th as an example of religion being foisted upon the people is missing the point.

In the aftermath of September 11th, the people needed the important institutions in the country to speak out and say, ``It's okay. We're alright, and we're going to press on.''

No particular organization (read: church) could speak to everyone, so they spread it around somewhat. Now yes, it was not perfect; not every faith was represented, not every person was individually addressed. But this is an imperfect world and frankly, it was refreshing to see black and white, Christian and Jew not worrying about word counts and speaking order, etc. I'm sure it was a logistical nightmare as it was. But the important bit was that effort was made to include; and the end (attempting to console and calm the populace) was, I think, effectively reached.

Now if such a ceremony had been Christian only, was a weekly thing, and taxes were imposed to fund it, that would be cause for alarm.





/tarnish...
he's not Craven Moorehead anymore.
Travis
Boerewors








Since: 7.3.02
From: Baltimore, MD

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#12 Posted on

    Originally posted by tarnish

    As much as I'm not a fan of organized religion for myself, and as much as I don't like that the religious Christian right is technically in power in the USA, I think holding up the service after September 11th as an example of religion being foisted upon the people is missing the point.



Holding the ceremony in a Xian church while the figurative Reichstag was still smoldering sent a message that makes me very uneasy. They could have done that from virtually anywhere, but they chose to hold it in a church and make it very Xian-centric.
There are other examples, I suppose- I'll cop to the fact I sort of picked that one off the cuff. My point remains- El Presidente seems dead set on making this "one big ol' country under GAWD" and there's no checks or balances ready to stop him now that we (rather, the "elected" officials) are all "newly" united and whatnot.
Next stop- axing a woman's right to choose as a method of preventing "terrorism".





Stop pretending you don't wanna be ME.
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Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

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#13 Posted on
"How can I believe in God when just last week I got my
tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?"
-- Woody Allen



"No society has managed to invest more time and energy in the perpetuation of the fiction that it is _moral, sane and wholesome_ than our current crop of _Modern Americans_."
-- Frank Zappa
BDC
Chourico








Since: 26.1.02
From: Falls Church, VA

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#14 Posted on

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    So, if a ceremony celebrating whites, blacks and hispanics were held by the government, asians have no reason to be upset?

    The oppression is not the problem. As you said, I fear it not because I don't believe it anyway. I was pointing out the hypocracy in living in the free world and following this. So my rights are secured on Earth? As you said, after that I will get my punishment eventually because, hey, I don't believe in your God.



I don't see celebrating particular races as endorsing only those races as being the legitimate races, just as I don't see emphasizing the major monotheistic religions in that post-9/11 ceremony as only endorsing those religions. Maybe its insensitive to leave out Asians, Native Americans, Arabs, Indians, etc. out of such a celebration...its too much of a stretch to say that not including them is some kind of government sponsored invalidation of them as a race, or in regards to a left-out religion, as an invalidation of that faith.

As far as the second point, Bucsfan, I'm a little confused as to what you're getting at...but let's see if I am reading you correctly. People who believe in these religions are actually living under a dictatorship because unless they follow a certain set of rules, they will be subject to a particular punishment; therefore, they are not living in a free world because they are enslaved by their religious dogma. If that's what you meant, that's like saying the United States is really a dictatorship because we have laws that restrict behavior and have punishments for people who violate those laws.

Travis:I have no idea why it never ocurred to me previously, but born-again type Xians are never going to disagree with Bush and his cronies attempting to convert our country into a church state- they'd benefit the most from a theocracy.
My point is that this country's government shouldn't be endorsing ANY religion, it should be totally neutral and without a position on the matter. Instead we have our toolbox of a president making speeches and using terms like "faith based" in regards to policy.
The truly sad part is that we have to view a guy like Ashcroft (who believes that DANCING is evil) as an authority figure. I for one am just not a fan of having my nation helmed by a bunch of ridiculous superstitious blowhards who are looking to better our world by going on (in Bush's own words) "Crusade"s.
However I suppose it's sort of like rooting for your favorite team. I'm wound up that the Orioles won yesterday, but the majority (Yankee fans) are probably bitter. The Xians couldn't be happier to have the religious right in power...I, as a rational amoralist, couldn't be more disappointed in all of the fools who voted them into power.


First off, you are so dead wrong about that first point. The beauty of living in this country is that everyone is free to worship or not worship in any way they choose within the laws of this country--no ritual human sacrifice, etc. As Christians, we don't want a government sponsoring it because then the government regulates exactly what the standards are. Which standards? Bush is a Methodist--but I'm not. Would the government adopt a Catholic standard? A Baptist standard? The faith I believe in stresses a personal relationship with God, not attendance in a church. I skip church sometimes if I don't feel like going...but I make up for it on my own time through prayer or reading the Bible or meeting with friends in a coffee shop and talking about whatever. I would rage against anyone who tried to tell me how to express my faith, so no...a theocracy? Not a chance.

I for one find solace that men and women who have a sincere devotion to their faith are in authority, not because they will force what they believe on anyone else--because it won't happen--but because they have a moral center and clarity that helps guide their decision-making. I can never understand what scares people about that. Nobody shudders when someone who grew up poor and is now successful says something like "the lessons I learned when I had nothing guide me in my life everyday." People NEED to take their own values into account when making a decision...what is the point otherwise? So whether someone's values were learned in Public School, Sunday School or in the School of Hard Knocks, their decisions will be based on what they've learned. And it should.

BDC



"Hitler had pieces of flair that he made the Jews wear."
Travis
Boerewors








Since: 7.3.02
From: Baltimore, MD

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#15 Posted on
BDC:logic prevails over morality any day...I'd rather people running the country I live in think with their heads rather than their hearts

"faith" is for the blind, morals for the weak

believing in set values of "right and wrong" is about the same as believing in magic, elves and faeries



Stop pretending you don't wanna be ME.
Randomwrestling: Not only do we actually know who Chris Hamrick is, but we know he sucks!
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42

    If that's what you meant, that's like saying the United States is really a dictatorship because we have laws that restrict behavior and have punishments for people who violate those laws.


I (or anyone) can leave the USA anytime I want. It is a decision I make to tolerate it in order to gain the benefits that come with living here. The watchful eye your God maintains, however, watches me wherever I go.

Also, endorsement of only some religions means the neglecting of others. An easy solution is the government staying away from a field they have no business going to in the first place.

One more hypothetical situation: I have formed my own religion. I call it Bucsfanism. I ask the governemnt to recognize my religion as they have others. They say no, because they suspect my motives are not religious intentions, plus there is only one member of my "religion." Now, the government is discriminating against me because of 1)the "minority" I now represent, and 2)their perception of what I am thinking. I would not react this way, but many would and I respect those people's rights.

It's great to think people wouldn't take a scenario like this hypothetical one so seriously or personally, but some people take EVERYTHING personally.



Caring is the first step towards disappointment.
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

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#17 Posted on
Not to start a religious/moral debate, but I take it Travis sees nothing absolutely wrong with torturing babies for pleasure and mass murder? Scary thing is I was recently in a discussion with a materialist who admitted as much. Once you totally throw "right and wrong" out the window as equivalent to magic and faries, it is philosophically difficult to get in back again.

DMC



Oh IT'S TRUE, IT'S DAMN TRUE.
DJ FrostyFreeze
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Hawthorne, CA

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95
TheBucsFan Says:
I (or anyone) can leave the USA anytime I want. It is a decision I make to tolerate it in order to gain the benefits that come with living here. The watchful eye your God maintains, however, watches me wherever I go.


Indeed he does (I believe), but you still have all the freedom in the world to ignore this and live as you wish. And as BDC stated earlier, if you dont believe this (watchful eye of God, etc) to be true, you have nothing to worry about. I still dont see how you can compare religion (Christianity, anyway) to a dictatorship.

Also, in your hypothetical situation with Bucsfanism, you mentioned that the Gov't doesnt "recognize" your religion. What do you mean by "recognize"? In this country, everyone has freedom of religion (within the law). I'm not sure the gov't has to recognize your religion for you to follow it.

(I know your hypothetical situation was just a make-believe story you used as an example. I'm just looking for clarification on what you meant by "recognize".)

(I like parenthesis.)





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TheBucsFan
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Since: 2.1.02

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
I guess "recognize" isn't the right word here...

Right now, this is a predominately christian nation. However, the government still protects the rights of the many other religious factions the United States is home too. By "recognize," I was referring to the question of whether or not my make-believe faith would be included in the "other" category or simply disregarded and neglected.



Caring is the first step towards disappointment.
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

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#20 Posted on
Determining what's an official "religion" is actually largely the responsibility of the IRS. Religious orgs get tax exemption, for which you have to apply to the IRS. The IRS then has which has to distinguish the real ones from the "Bucsfanism" ones, which are generally tax scams.

Moe



Expressing myself EVERY day!
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Wishful thinking. It's pretty laughable actually, because god knows America is Canada's only hope if there's ever an attack on Canada. People said the same thing about the destruction of America during the Raegan years.
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