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The W - Baseball - Does Felix Hernandez deserve the Cy Young? (Page 2)
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Mr. Boffo
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Since: 24.3.02
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.67
    Originally posted by The Game
    As I mentioned, I believe the Cy Young is also the MVP of pitching but this is a very good point. Michael Kay said and argued that a great pitcher can find a way to win which may be partially true but at the same time, if you were to put CC Sabathia in Seattle with their low run support, he would probably have less wins than Felix based on that Felix is statistically the best pitcher in the majors or the very least, top 5 for sure.




Unfortunately you're wrong. The Cy Young Award is presented "To The [Most] Outstanding" pitcher in the league, not the "most valuable".
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/instructions_for_cy_young/
http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2010/9/17/1695049/the-cy-young-award-has-changed
Peter The Hegemon
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Since: 11.2.03
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.98
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Shouldn't your starter win 20% of your teams wns? Most teams use five starters so logic would say that a 20% total makes sense and us average to slightly above average.



That only makes sense if you assume that relief pitchers won't get an appreciable amount of wins. Which may actually have been true at one time, but certainly isn't now. (The Nationals have a reliever leading the team in wins.)
The Game
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Since: 5.5.09

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.39


I can see how I can be totally wrong; I did look at the link you posted and it does make clear that it does go to the "most outstanding" pitcher. However, my "belief" doesn't say that I am wrong, just a different opinion on the award. Based on Felix's outstanding year, that "belief" or opinion can change (if it hasn't already). Again, the only thing that will hinder Felix's chances is his 13 wins whereas the lowest win total for any Cy Young winner was 16 and that was done twice.


(edited by The Game on 2.10.10 1145)
Joseph Ryder
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Since: 19.3.02
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.96
    Originally posted by The Game
    I can see how I can be totally wrong; I did look at the link you posted and it does make clear that it does go to the "most outstanding" pitcher. However, my "belief" doesn't say that I am wrong, just a different opinion on the award. Based on Felix's outstanding year, that "belief" or opinion can change (if it hasn't already). Again, the only thing that will hinder Felix's chances is his 13 wins whereas the lowest win total for any Cy Young winner was 16 and that was done twice.


Ugh...actually the lowest total of wins for a Cy Young winner is 15. I can see how you'd forget that though, since it happened 12 whole months ago.



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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.95
Lowest will be 13 after this year.

The fact he can't even bat helps his argument.



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Since: 5.5.09

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.39
    Originally posted by Joseph Ryder
      Originally posted by The Game
      I can see how I can be totally wrong; I did look at the link you posted and it does make clear that it does go to the "most outstanding" pitcher. However, my "belief" doesn't say that I am wrong, just a different opinion on the award. Based on Felix's outstanding year, that "belief" or opinion can change (if it hasn't already). Again, the only thing that will hinder Felix's chances is his 13 wins whereas the lowest win total for any Cy Young winner was 16 and that was done twice.


    Ugh...actually the lowest total of wins for a Cy Young winner is 15. I can see how you'd forget that though, since it happened 12 whole months ago.



Oops, my bad (a rarity that I mess up on statistics)
StaggerLee
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.72
Wins are a useless stat?
So, we ignore losses because your team doesn't score enough runs? Isn't that the definition of a loss? Should we just throw out Price and Sabathia's losses because they didn't get enough run support in those games?

He pitches in a PITCHERS park, and he is under absolutely ZERO pressure. I think KC or Milwaukee may be the only two cities with MLB teams with LESS pressure from the media, fans, internal expectations, etc.

Give him the ball, there's nothing on the line, he can go out, throw his pitches, work the batters, but knows in his mind that no matter what happens, nobody is expecting too much.
Put him in Boston, New York, Chicago, Atlanta or St Louis and see how great he pitches.
Psycho Penguin
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.95
So the best pitcher has to play in Boston, New York, or Tampa? Why even have the award then?



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Since: 2.1.02
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.60
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Wins are a useless stat?


In evaluating pitchers' performances vs. other pitchers' performances? Yes.


    So, we ignore losses because your team doesn't score enough runs? Isn't that the definition of a loss?


For a team, yes. For a pitcher, it is a lousy stat for evaluation.


    Should we just throw out Price and Sabathia's losses because they didn't get enough run support in those games?


Go ahead.


    He pitches in a PITCHERS park,


The same park his opponent is pitching in...


    and he is under absolutely ZERO pressure.


...except that his offense is always the worst of the two.


    I think KC or Milwaukee may be the only two cities with MLB teams with LESS pressure from the media, fans, internal expectations, etc.


I think you have no idea what you are talking about in making a statement of the expectations of Seattle fans and media.


    Give him the ball, there's nothing on the line, he can go out, throw his pitches, work the batters, but knows in his mind that no matter what happens, nobody is expecting too much.


Other than the team that is trying to win while scoring the fewest runs in the league in the history of time. (Or since I was born, which is the same thing.)


    Put him in Boston, New York, Chicago, Atlanta or St Louis and see how great he pitches.


He probably pitches the same and has more wins, because all of those teams have better offenses, which has absolutely nothing to do with how Felix pitches or pitched.

(edited by JayJayDean on 3.10.10 1046)


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StaggerLee
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.72
Just curious if all this "but he's on a lousy team" sentiment means support for Andre Dawson the year he won the MVP. Or one of those borderline pitchers (Bert Blylevin) in talks about the HOF.

I am not saying he's isn't a great pitcher, I'm saying that you have to take in his win total. You can't just say "this stat's important, but this stat isn't"


The saying is "pitching wins titles", right? Nothing about pitching wins as long as the offense is firing on all cylinders.



JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.60
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Just curious if all this "but he's on a lousy team" sentiment means support for Andre Dawson the year he won the MVP. Or one of those borderline pitchers (Bert Blylevin) in talks about the HOF.


Since those aren't the same award as the Cy Young Award, which is the one for the "most outstanding pitcher in the American League", they really don't have any relevance o this particular issue (especially the "Blyleven in the HOF"-argument.) However, if Andre Dawson hit 100 home runs for a team that lost 100 games because they had the worst pitching staff of the last 40 years, then I wouldn't say you could have blamed Andre for their last place-standing.


    I am not saying he's isn't a great pitcher, I'm saying that you have to take in his win total.


Which is not a smart saying.


    You can't just say "this stat's important, but this stat isn't"


Yes, you kind of can. Nobody judges the American League MVP based on "most doubles". However, doubles ARE a stat, correct? That's saying "this stat's important, but this stat isn't." And it is absolutely correct.

Besides, Felix led the AL in innings pitched (a stat), strikeouts (a stat), and quality starts (a stat). If YOU are saying "but not wins", then aren't YOU saying "those stats aren't important, but MY stat-of-choice is?"


    The saying is "pitching wins titles", right? Nothing about pitching wins as long as the offense is firing on all cylinders.


Pitching without offense wins nothing, which is why wins is a dumb stat for comparing pitchers.



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StaggerLee
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.72
Baseball (a team sport) is about wins, its silly to say it's the teams fault for not scoring enough (to win games) but then say wins are meaningless in judging a pitcher's season.

You can't use the "cause" (the team didn't score) yet ignore the "effect" (the pitcher didn't get the win).

Psycho Penguin
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.95
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Baseball (a team sport) is about wins, its silly to say it's the teams fault for not scoring enough (to win games) but then say wins are meaningless in judging a pitcher's season.

    You can't use the "cause" (the team didn't score) yet ignore the "effect" (the pitcher didn't get the win).




It's an individual award.



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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
I don't know about all of you, but I know I would certainly vote for Brett Cecil (15-7, 4.22 ERA) over Felix in this year's voting. After all, Chuck has more wins, thus he is a better pitcher.

(edited by spf on 3.10.10 1724)


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JayJayDean
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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.64
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Baseball (a team sport) is about wins, its silly to say it's the teams fault for not scoring enough (to win games) but then say wins are meaningless in judging a pitcher's season.

    You can't use the "cause" (the team didn't score) yet ignore the "effect" (the pitcher didn't get the win).


As soon as whether a starting pitcher gets a "win" has a DIRECT correlation into the team ACTUALLY winning, you will have a point.

However, lots of times that is not the case. Anyway, let me give you two scenarios:

Pitcher A throws nine no-hit/no-walk innings, allowing no earned runs. However, his defense makes two errors and directly causes an unearned runs to score, and his offense puts up a 000 000 000-0 line score. The pitcher's line?

(L) 9 IP, 0 H, 1 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 14 SO

Pitcher B's team scores ten runs in the first inning. Pitcher B goes five innings, while allowing nine runs, all earned. He leaves the game leading 10-9 after five innings, and then the bullpen shuts the other team down for the rest of the game. Pitcher B's line?

(W) 5 IP, 14 H, 9 R, 9 ER, 4 BB, 0 SO

Now, by YOUR logic, Pitcher B is BETTER than Pitcher A, because HE got the win and Pitcher B didn't. That is why using wins as a measure of a starting pitcher's value is not the way to go, because NOBODY would try to argue that Pitcher A wasn't far superior - he just didn't "win".



Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

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Peter The Hegemon
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Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.98
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Wins are a useless stat?
    So, we ignore losses because your team doesn't score enough runs? Isn't that the definition of a loss? Should we just throw out Price and Sabathia's losses because they didn't get enough run support in those games?


The ones where they pitched brilliantly, yes.

    Originally posted by StaggerLee

    Give him the ball, there's nothing on the line, he can go out, throw his pitches, work the batters, but knows in his mind that no matter what happens, nobody is expecting too much.
    Put him in Boston, New York, Chicago, Atlanta or St Louis and see how great he pitches.



Put CC on this Seattle team, and let's see how many wins he gets.
graves9
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Since: 19.2.10
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.20
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Wins are a useless stat?
    So, we ignore losses because your team doesn't score enough runs? Isn't that the definition of a loss? Should we just throw out Price and Sabathia's losses because they didn't get enough run support in those games?

    He pitches in a PITCHERS park, and he is under absolutely ZERO pressure. I think KC or Milwaukee may be the only two cities with MLB teams with LESS pressure from the media, fans, internal expectations, etc.

    Give him the ball, there's nothing on the line, he can go out, throw his pitches, work the batters, but knows in his mind that no matter what happens, nobody is expecting too much.
    Put him in Boston, New York, Chicago, Atlanta or St Louis and see how great he pitches.

That is so silly. He has been the far superior pitcher than C.C this year. It is not his fault he is on a historically bad offensive team. If C.C and King Felix trades teams C.C wins ten games with the Mariners and King Felix win 24-25 with the Yanks offense. This whole he doesn't know how to win stuff is dumb.

(edited by graves9 on 6.10.10 1045)
Llakor
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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.02
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Originally posted by StaggerLee
      Just curious if all this "but he's on a lousy team" sentiment means support for Andre Dawson the year he won the MVP. Or one of those borderline pitchers (Bert Blylevin) in talks about the HOF.


    Since those aren't the same award as the Cy Young Award, which is the one for the "most outstanding pitcher in the American League", they really don't have any relevance o this particular issue (especially the "Blyleven in the HOF"-argument.) However, if Andre Dawson hit 100 home runs for a team that lost 100 games because they had the worst pitching staff of the last 40 years, then I wouldn't say you could have blamed Andre for their last place-standing.




Didn't Dawson win the NL MVP for a Chicago Cubs team that finished in last place?



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BigDaddyLoco
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Since: 2.1.02

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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.68
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    I think KC or Milwaukee may be the only two cities with MLB teams with LESS pressure from the media, fans, internal expectations, etc.



Where did you come up with that load of crap? Wild statements like this based on nothing kill any point you are trying to make. Unless of course you are trying to prove that you really have no idea about what you are talking about.

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