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The W - Pro Wrestling - Discuss WWE Great American Bash 2004 (Page 5)
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Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

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#81 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
I didn't say I could run it better than Vince. I just think that maybe, just maybe, SD could be performing better using a different approach than what they're currently employing. What they're doing isn't exactly setting the world on fire.

They don't need to make every match spot-spot-spot-finish, but take advantage of the athleticism of the guys on the roster. I'd think younger viewers might be more receptive to that than they would 2 big lunks lumbering across the ring, using nothing but punches and kicks.

Look at today's entertainment - video games, X-Games, movies w/ unbelievable special effects. This is what young viewers are bombarded with every day. Compared to this stuff, cartoony big men just don't bring the same appeal. It just seems like common sense, but the WWE insists on jamming their square peg into a round hole.



chill
Landjager








Since: 18.5.02

Since last post: 2636 days
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#82 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.24
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    ::looks at SD::

    ::looks at SD ratings::

    ::looks at SD house shows being cancelled::

    ::looks at poor SD PPV buy-rates::

    Hmmmm. You're right - how could I be so blind?

    Look at Raw - they moved Benoit over, let the matches go longer (and put on better matches), and ratings have risen. This isn't the 1980's. The era of cartoony big guys is done.


Ugh. There are too many flaws with what you're saying. I know we all like to think we know better than the pro's do, since some of us have been watching wrestling for decades, but if you want to bring up ratings, then you're talking about what I do for a living, so:

First, there's no correlation that you can prove between Smackdown and ratings - all anybody can do is speculate. I work in television production and have studied more than enough television advertising to tell you that wrestling is suffering more from the expansion of cable TV. There are more channels available now, which explains the drop in ratings than any backlash over bad angles or gimmicks. Almost all TV networks (nevermind about specific shows) are experiencing the lower levels. And moreso, if you've studied any business or advertising in school, you'll already know without me having to tell you that the only thing consistent in business is cycles. What decides any company's long-term success is its ability to survive the lowest lows in the worst of cycles. 1998 was not the norm for wrestling, so it's ridiculous when wrestling fans act like it should be. That was the HIGHEST point wrestling's ratings ever reached. Viewer interest was always bound to drop to today's levels eventually. Smackdown's ratings are mostly the same as where they've been for a long time now. This is not sudden.

Secondly, one SD house show was cancelled recently. Not shows (plural) - one show. In fact, Carl DeMarco, President (or some such title) of WWE Canada, was on the local call-in show two or three weeks ago and said the biggest surprise the company is finding is that Smackdown house shows are outselling RAW house shows. He said they attribute it to John Cena being the reason, because he appeals to so many kids. Oh, and look - John Cena's merchandise is constantly at the top of the merchandise sales, so that might support DeMarco's claim. So... for now, I'll listen to his numbers rather than your numbers or anybody else's. Unless you get attendance reports for all the house show results delivered to your house and can tell me otherwise. Shows have been getting cancelled for YEARS - this is nothing new, so don't act like it is.

Third, I agree with you about the cartoony era being finished a long time ago. I don't understand why we have to live through another rehashing of it... but it looks like we're going to have to. There's nothing I'd love more than to see good wrestlers like London, Nunzio, Chavo, Rey, and so on get time to show what they can do...but I can only hold my breath on that happening. And I don't like that JBL is the champ over other wrestlers who I'd prefer to hold the gold, but then again, Vince and his company are the ones who are running a successful company, not me. So to put it in perspective, are you going to pay attention to an ant that's criticizing how you do your job? Fact is, people are still attending their shows and buying their t-shirts.

You scream, I scream, we all scream... and it changes nothing. If it was one wrestler they were making cartoony, that'd be one thing. But it's a lot more than one, so I have this little feeling that maybe, just maybe, the company has a plan. Is it popular with internet fans? Not that I can see, but in REALITY, we're such a small percentage of the masses who attend live shows, that our opinions aren't as common as we assume they are. Go to a live show and see how many people know who the Velocity or Heat stars are. Why do you think Bob Holly and Billy Gunn are getting the big pops on shows? (that's a rhetorical question, don't waste your time justifying Holly or Gunn to us, please! )Will this direction be successful? Who knows right now. We all thought Eugene would disappear after a few weeks, and the opposite has happened there.

And all that proves is that none of us are the experts we like to think we are.


(edited by chill on 29.6.04 1146)

(edited by thecubsfan on 29.6.04 1231)
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
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#83 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
    Originally posted by 6/28 Observer
    The Smackdown crew was not in a good mood this week as all of its scheduled house shows were canceled due to poor advances, and then they got the word that 6/26 in Trenton next week was also canceled, making four shows in a row. That's $500 per night out the window for the bottom guys and more for the middle and top guys. Word is that the Smackdown upcoming dates, and even the TV tapings, are not showing much life.


And I never liked the "more cable channels = lower ratings for wrestling" argument. If someone likes wrestling, and wants to watch wrestling, they'll tune in regardless of how many other channels are available. Maybe it effects some people channel-surfing, as it would take longer to flip onto wrestling, but that's not a big factor. To me, there's a *reason* people are making a point to not tune in, and it's not just "more channels". At some point you have to look at the quality of the product as a source of the problem.



thecubsfan
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

Since last post: 10 hours
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#84 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
Attendance figures delivered to my house? Well, sorta

May 2004

"RAW averaged 2,664 paid per house show and 7,780 per RAW Taping in May. Both numbers are down slightly from what the show had been doing most of the year, not including the big month of March"

"SmackDown averaged 2,552, almost idenitcal to RAW, which is a rariy. The reason is because SmackDown played in several Hispanic markets (3,145 per Hispanic market vs 2,167 in non-Hispanic markets). SmackDown TV averaged 5,460 per show, above the recent advantage. That's two Hispanic market shows (Tucson and Las Vegas) and always strong Toronto. Smackdown was in the usual house show range because of Guerrero in the Southwest, and ahead of usual levels for TV, even with ratings at a terrible low level. But overall, ticket sales for SmackDown have not declined as ratings and the last buy rate did.

(Wrestling Observer Newsletter, 06/21/04)

I could grab more numbers if you guys are that interested. Dave usually puts them together in some form at the end of the year, but I could see where it'd be more helpful if the numbers were running throughout the year; in fact, I'd guess someone's gotta to have a listing up someplace already.

(Between you and me, I had to correct myself from typing SmackDown! about a billion times there.)



thecubsfan.com - CMLLBlog
chill
Landjager








Since: 18.5.02

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#85 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.24
Numbers are numbers. Reasons given by wrestling newsletters are as good a guess as mine or anybody else's, unless he conducted a poll at every event and city that WWE has held shows in. I'll still rely more on what comes out of a WWE exec's mouth as to what reason the company believes to be the reason for one thing happening or another, since they pay people to analyze numbers. Believe what you want based on what you read on the net. Because god knows the internet writers have never been wrong. Nor have they ever invented reasons to explain this or that, only because it was a slow news day and they had nothing else to write about...

(edited by chill on 29.6.04 1404)
thecubsfan
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

Since last post: 10 hours
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#86 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
Now:

    Numbers are numbers.


When a few posts ago, re: SmackDown! vs RAW

    Unless you get attendance reports for all the house show results delivered to your house and can tell me otherwise


So which is it? I'd hate to think I'd looked up the numbers just for you to flip/flop on their importance because they didn't easily fit your arguement.


    WWE exec's mouth as to what reason the company believes to be the reason for one thing happening or another, since they pay people to analyze numbers.


While I'm sure they do, that has absolutely nothing to do with what comes out of WWE executive's mouths. Thier statements to the public will always be the best outlook on the current situation - go read what you wrote about DeMarco's attendance numbers and tell me why/why not it doesn't match the numbers I just pulled - and believing everything they say to be the absolute truth on the matter is just absoutely silly.

I believe it's possible for WWE to be wrong in business decisions and others who aren't in the WWE to be right about those same business decisions. I don't understand why you don't even allow the possibility of that being true.



thecubsfan.com - CMLLBlog
jjfc
Cotechino








Since: 13.5.04
From: DC

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#87 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.11
Oh come on, let's be fair. The whole part about the shows being in the SW and Guerrero is just a fancy way of saying "the numbers don't look the way we want them too." Notice they didn't give any reason as to why Raw's numbers dropped.

Taker/Cena did a 3.7 last week. Was the Southwest involved with that too?
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
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#88 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
What does the Southwest have to do w/ how many people watch on TV?



jjfc
Cotechino








Since: 13.5.04
From: DC

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#89 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.11
That was supposed to be sarcasm sorry.
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#90 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.61
"The whole part about the shows being in the SW and Guerrero is just a fancy way of saying..."

Neveryouminding that Guerrero has been a proven draw in southwest markets going back to the end of last summer long before he got the title. Nor the Cited Statistic of 3,145 per Hispanic market vs 2,167 in non-Hispanic markets.

"Taker/Cena did a 3.7 last week. Was the Southwest involved with that too?"

The Nielsen rating of a *single* segment of one week of TV is not really analagous to nor even in the same ballpark as the entire paid attendance of a house show.

They put a marquee main event on the show for once and people were interested in watching it on TV. What that has to do with Eddie Guerrero drawing houses in Latino markets, I dunno.





"Because god knows the internet writers have never been wrong. Nor have they ever invented reasons to explain this or that, only because it was a slow news day and they had nothing else to write about..."

Lumping Meltzer and Keller in with "the internet writers" is more than a little off-base and silly. Unless that's what Carl DeMarco told you.

"You scream, I scream, we all scream... and it changes nothing"

A lesson well-learned from your 18 posts in the last two and a half days all saying the exact same thing.
jjfc
Cotechino








Since: 13.5.04
From: DC

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#91 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.11
Yes but my argument is that the 2167 is no significantly different from the 2664 that Raw does not that Guerrero doesn't have extra support from Hispanics. That's why I mentioned the notable lack of explanation for why Raw's numbers have dropped.

Further, they note that SD having the same numbers as Raw is a "rarity" implying that SD numbers are usually slightly lower than Raws. So how can the decline in SD quality be proven by house show numbers that reflect the status quo.

(edited by jjfc on 29.6.04 1336)
JoshMann
Andouille








Since: 17.11.03
From: Tallahassee, FL

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#92 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.91
    Originally posted by jjfc
    Yes but my argument is that the 2167 is no significantly different from the 2664 that Raw does not that Guerrero doesn't have extra support from Hispanics. That's why I mentioned the notable lack of explanation for why Raw's numbers have dropped.

    Further, they note that SD having the same numbers as Raw is a "rarity" implying that SD numbers are usually slightly lower than Raws. So how can the decline in SD quality be proven by house show numbers that reflect the status quo.

    (edited by jjfc on 29.6.04 1336)


No difference except approximately $15,000 worth of revenue (the difference between the two attendance figures times a median ticket price of $30) per house show, and that's if they DON'T buy anything from the t-shirt stand.



I did the same thing last week!
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 4 days
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#93 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.61
"Yes but my argument is that the 2167 is no significantly different from the 2664 that Raw does"

Well, it's like a $15,000 difference in gate.

"That's why I mentioned the notable lack of explanation for why Raw's numbers have dropped."

Dropped from when? Earlier in the year?

"Further, they note that SD having the same numbers as Raw is a "rarity" implying that SD numbers are usually slightly lower than Raws."

Right, in part because SD runs shows on Monday nights with the built-in handicap of going head-to-head with Raw on TV.

"So how can the decline in SD quality be proven by house show numbers that reflect the status quo."

Does it claim otherwise? ""But overall, ticket sales for SmackDown have not declined as ratings and the last buy rate did." I believe Cubs posted it in response to Carl DeMarco's claim that SD's house shows were outselling Raw's, not to prove a decline.


(The only proof you really need for a decline is the Judgment Day buyrate, one which will almost certainly be higher than the Bash's. But maybe this is because the shows are so incredibly successfully marketed at children, and children have to get their parents' permission to order PPVs but can't, thus robbing them of the JBL/Eddie matches they're just bursting out of their pull-up diapers to see.)
jjfc
Cotechino








Since: 13.5.04
From: DC

Since last post: 3604 days
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#94 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.11
    Originally posted by Blanket Jackson
      Originally posted by jjfc
      Yes but my argument is that the 2167 is no significantly different from the 2664 that Raw does not that Guerrero doesn't have extra support from Hispanics. That's why I mentioned the notable lack of explanation for why Raw's numbers have dropped.

      Further, they note that SD having the same numbers as Raw is a "rarity" implying that SD numbers are usually slightly lower than Raws. So how can the decline in SD quality be proven by house show numbers that reflect the status quo.

      (edited by jjfc on 29.6.04 1336)


    No difference except approximately $15,000 worth of revenue (the difference between the two attendance figures times a median ticket price of $30) per house show, and that's if they DON'T buy anything from the t-shirt stand.


Yes but you need to explain a variance not a constant.

SD! ALWAYS draws less than Raw at House shows.

Both numbers are down slightly from what the show had been doing most of the year, not including the big month of March

This is the decline I'm talking about.

(edited by jjfc on 29.6.04 1355)
RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

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#95 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.12
F'N SHAPIRO: But maybe this is because the shows are so incredibly successfully marketed at children, and children have to get their parents' permission to order PPVs but can't, thus robbing them of the JBL/Eddie matches they're just bursting out of their pull-up diapers to see.)

AND MURDER!

Shapiro and / or Cubs - is just Internet Lore and Wives Tales that Meltzer got most of his original notoriety and heat from posting the *real* numbers for shows vs. what the promoters (or in Vince's / Turner's case later on) the accountants would say? Foley mentioned that in passing in his first book (death threats), but has Meltzer ever mentioned this, or at least substantiated the rumors?

also...

CubsFan: Attendance figures delivered to my house?

Well, sorta

May 2004

"RAW averaged 2,664 paid... (Wrestling Observer Newsletter, 06/21/04)


That's cold...you probably whip dogs with roll-up Observers, too...;_)

FLEA



Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high...

FLEA - 1ryderfakin.com - THE IWC 100! And The Wrestling Dead Pool!!
chill
Landjager








Since: 18.5.02

Since last post: 2636 days
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#96 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.19
    Originally posted by JMShapiro
    A lesson well-learned from your 18 posts in the last two and a half days all saying the exact same thing.


Wow, I'm flattered! Somebody out there is keeping count of all my posts. You must really have a problem with me to go out of your way and spend your day counting all my posts! Thanks for doing me that favor, but really, there are better things one can do in life. It's a good thing you counted too, because I was wondering how many I had posted but have been too busy today to check.

Sadly, I don't share the same amount of interest in you that you show for me, so I won't be returning the favor for you or anyone else. Nobody asked you to read my posts and you can easily click on the "Ignore this user" link if you don't care for me. No harm, no foul. And then we don't have to dive back into a discussion that I was happy to be done with YESTERDAY. After all, I'm sure nobody else here cares how often I've posted. If you feel you absolutely have to, please do continue to keep track of everything I say, and by all means, let me know when I say more than 200 words in a day. I wasn't aware there was a maximum limit, so I'll watch my step from now on. Send me a PM or email, or even put an ad in the newspaper as I tend to read that first thing in the morning when I wake up.

On the bright side, I've gotten several emails and private messages thanking me for saying what I did. It seems some people here feel the same way I do about some things. So I guess some people appreciated my input. Again, remember the Ignore button! We're not all the same and I'm not as perfect as you, so if you ignore me, we shouldn't have any problems. Otherwise, why not start banning me and everyone else whose opinion is different from yours? That'll result in very engaging conversations.




Moving on and more relevant to this thread, I truly think Eddie Guerrero looks stronger now after the Bash. He was in control at the end of the match. Since JBL fell into the corner, we all know he's the heel who didn't "earn" his first world championship. This Thursday, we can expect JBL to brag about how he's the better man and so on. Eddie beat him, he just didn't technically win the match. In my eyes, he'll be better off overall for having lost the title and eventually getting a rematch for redemption. A two-time world champion Eddie Guerrero makes him seem like more of a "real deal" than a one-timer.
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#97 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.07
    Originally posted by chill
      Originally posted by JMShapiro
      A lesson well-learned from your 18 posts in the last two and a half days all saying the exact same thing.


    Wow, I'm flattered! Somebody out there is keeping count of all my posts. You must really have a problem with me to go out of your way and spend your day counting all my posts! Thanks for doing me that favor, but really, there are better things one can do in life. It's a good thing you counted too, because I was wondering how many I had posted but have been too busy today to check.

    Sadly, I don't share the same amount of interest in you that you show for me, so I won't be returning the favor for you or anyone else. Nobody asked you to read my posts and you can easily click on the "Ignore this user" link if you don't care for me. No harm, no foul. And then we don't have to dive back into a discussion that I was happy to be done with YESTERDAY. After all, I'm sure nobody else here cares how often I've posted. If you feel you absolutely have to, please do continue to keep track of everything I say, and by all means, let me know when I say more than 200 words in a day. I wasn't aware there was a maximum limit, so I'll watch my step from now on. Send me a PM or email, or even put an ad in the newspaper as I tend to read that first thing in the morning when I wake up.

    On the bright side, I've gotten several emails and private messages thanking me for saying what I did. It seems some people here feel the same way I do about some things. So I guess some people appreciated my input. Again, remember the Ignore button! We're not all the same and I'm not as perfect as you, so if you ignore me, we shouldn't have any problems. Otherwise, why not start banning me and everyone else whose opinion is different from yours? That'll result in very engaging conversations.
I'd explain where you went wrong, but if you're not listening to the moderators I doubt you'd listen to me. Seven days.

EDIT: On the off chance that any of your PM or emailing friends want to stick up for you publicly, appeals will be heard in Site Feedback without threat of retribution.

(edited by CRZ on 29.6.04 2223)


CRZ
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#98 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.07
    Originally posted by leggo
    Listen, I think Vince knows how to run his company a TINY bit more than you do okay, so pardon me if I ignore your little three-step plan on saving WWE.

    ::looks at SD::

    ::looks at SD ratings::

    ::looks at SD house shows being cancelled::

    ::looks at poor SD PPV buy-rates::

    Hmmmm. You're right - how could I be so blind?


    So you're pretty much arguing that you can run a wrestling company better than Vince McMahon. You are blind.

    I'm just finished reading Hyatte's most recent, so I'm going to quote him here: "Relax, Vince has a plan, Vince ALWAYS has a plan."
You're probably next, by the way. Fair warning.



CRZ
thecubsfan
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

Since last post: 10 hours
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#99 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00

    is just Internet Lore and Wives Tales that Meltzer got most of his original notoriety and heat from posting the *real* numbers for shows vs. what the promoters (or in Vince's / Turner's case later on) the accountants would say?


That'd make sense - as much as they didn't like the kayfabe being broken, I'm sure anger over money was a bigger concern - but besides the passing bits you've mentioned, I haven't heard anything specific.

Justin is the keeper of the Dave cannon so you'll have to wait for him.

FWIW: Full 2004 House Show Numbers are here.

(edited by thecubsfan on 30.6.04 0121)


thecubsfan.com - CMLLBlog
Hobbes
Cotechino








Since: 10.12.01
From: Kelowna

Since last post: 36 days
Last activity: 14 days
#100 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.72
    Originally posted by chill
      Originally posted by JMShapiro
      A lesson well-learned from your 18 posts in the last two and a half days all saying the exact same thing.


    Wow, I'm flattered! Somebody out there is keeping count of all my posts. You must really have a problem with me to go out of your way and spend your day counting all my posts! Thanks for doing me that favor, but really, there are better things one can do in life. It's a good thing you counted too, because I was wondering how many I had posted but have been too busy today to check.

    Sadly, I don't share the same amount of interest in you that you show for me, so I won't be returning the favor for you or anyone else.


Uh, do you realize that when you click on someone's username it brings up their profile and one of the first things listed is the total number of posts written? You'd think someone that worked in television production (His high school's A/V club) would have the brains to figure this stuff out!

(deleted by CRZ on 30.6.04 0116)

(resurrected by JMShapiro on 5.9.04 1339)
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