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The W - Pro Wrestling - devaluation of the WWE title
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kokolums2
Bauerwurst








Since: 10.6.02

Since last post: 3321 days
Last activity: 3321 days
#1 Posted on
Would you agree that it is seriously losing its luster? Consider these recent champs:

Y2J: drew no heat
HHH: drew little heat

and now its getting worse

Hogan: Just entered the WWE a couple months prior
Taker: draws little heat

And now Lesnar gets a title shot? Just a couple
years ago, the new hires might get a crack at the
IC strap. Now the IC strap is so worthless Lesnar
skips right by it. Its like the value of the WWE
title is now equal to the old IC title. The fed title
is just a stepping stone to get Lesnar over. Wow.

Guys like Rock, Austin (prior to leaving), are
completely above the WWE title. It looks as if
holding it makes you a midcarder.

(edited by kokolums2 on 25.6.02 1632)
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Debaser
Mettwurst








Since: 22.3.02

Since last post: 4268 days
Last activity: 4233 days
#2 Posted on
Yawn.
Freeway
Scrapple








Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

Since last post: 117 days
Last activity: 88 days
#3 Posted on
Let's go to WWETitleHistory.com and examine the WWF Champions from January 1999 onwards:

Mankind & The Rock traded reigns in the red-hot feud that lasted until February, when the Big Show debuted and cost Foley the title. Both drew well.
The Rock feuded with Stone Cold Steve Austin (who'd just gotten the WrestleMania title shot) and that feud lasted two months. Both drew well.
Then, the Undertaker's creepy Minstry of Darkness feuded with Stone Cold, culminating at the infamous Over the Edge with Undertaker winning the title. Taker didn't draw well (few heel champions do), and he dropped the title to Austin the night after King of the Ring.
Austin's reign lasted through the summer and a feud with Triple H. Mankind returned and won the title in a triple threat match at SummerSlam, and dropped the title to Triple H the next night. Triple H drew well for a heel. He dropped the title to Vince McMahon, who vacated it right after. Triple H won the title in the Six Pack Challenge, and kept it until Survivor Series, when Austin was "hit by a car" and replaced in his title match with The Big Show, who won the title.
The Big Show didn't draw well. His main feud was against the Big Bossman. Show dropped the title back to HHH early in 2000. Triple H feuded with The Rock off and on until June, trading the title twice with The Rock. The Rock ended up with the title, and feuded with Chris Benoit for two months until dropping the title to Kurt Angle in October. Angle drew fairly well, and feuded with Triple H and Stone Cold for a bit before dropping the title to The Rock in February of 2001. The Rock held the title until he dropped the title to the heelish Stone Cold, who drew well and held the title until dropping it to Kurt Angle in September (in the wash of American patriotism). Angle drew well as a Patriotic Face, but dropped the title back to Austin when his numbers waned a bit. Austin, in turn, dropped the title to Chris Jericho who unified the WCW & WWF Championships and drew well for a heel...until Stephanie McMahon started writing the HHH/Jericho feud, killing Jericho's heat. Jericho dropped the title to HHH, who didn't draw well because he lost his groove. HHH dropped the belt to the Hulkster, who got it for nostalgic purposes (nostalgia doesn't draw) and then HE dropped it to the Undertaker, who's getting it because he's loyal.

Simple Lesson: Heels are entertaining, but they don't draw. Most long-term champions are faces, because faces draw money.




Bart: Hey, immigrants! Beat it! Country's full!
Sailor: OK people, you heard the lady. Back into the hold. We'll try Canada.
[the immigrants moan]
-- "The City of New York Vs. Homer Simpson"


"That's what the Internet is for, slandering others anonymously" Banky Edwards (Jason Lee) in Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back

Socks
Landjager








Since: 25.6.02
From: Ottawa

Since last post: 634 days
Last activity: 247 days
#4 Posted on
Well...I think we should put the title on Crash Holly and let him run with it for uhh...5 years!
kokolums2
Bauerwurst








Since: 10.6.02

Since last post: 3321 days
Last activity: 3321 days
#5 Posted on
Jericho never had any heat as unified champ. He had no heat to "kill". I hate seeing history re-written.

Jericho went over 2 guys in one nite to win that title. He then was booked to go over in main event fueds with Austin and then then Rock. Only then did they decide it wasn't working and stuck him with Steph. Jericho had, in reality, lots of chances to make that work and he probably will get another opportunity or two before his career is over. I won't cry for Jericho.

I was shocked they put the belt on him at all. He wasn't drawing heat at the time. But looking at things now, it makes more sense because its a mid-card title.
ManiacalClown
Landjager








Since: 2.1.02
From: Houston, TX

Since last post: 358 days
Last activity: 358 days
AIM:  
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
I seem to remember hearing quite a bit of heel heat for Jericho as champ, but I was obviously imagining it.

Too. Much. Mescaline.



Subversia - We [heart] Puff Mario
Debaser
Mettwurst








Since: 22.3.02

Since last post: 4268 days
Last activity: 4233 days
#7 Posted on
Yes it's a midcard title. Look for the Hurricane to take it from Taker on Thursday in a rare "choke slam challenge" main event. He will then drop it to Raven in an impromptu match the last 5 minutes of the show, who will defend it soley on Heat for the next three weeks before jobbing it to Crash Holly at Vengeance after a fluke rollup. This will be in the opening match.

Crash will announce on RAW that he's reinstituting the 24/7 rule for the Undisputed Title, but won't have any takers because no one cares about such a lame-ass midcard title anymore. Crash will vanish off TV when the bookers run out of ideas for him, only to be pinned by Terri during the Heat before Summerslam. She will then go on to face Brock Lesnar in a main event universally panned as "disturbing, misogynistic, and just plain icky" by pretty much everyone. Hyatte will give it 4 of whatever gimmick rating he's using for that Mop Up, just to maintain his edge.

Vince will sell the WWE to the French shortly after this, and invest all his money in the porn industry.

***

Seriously. Right now the WWE's hierarchy of overness is:

1. The Rock
2. Hogan in Canada
3. The Rock's elbow
4. The Rock's eyebrow
5. The Rock's "strudel"
6-75. All of the Rock's other bodyparts
76. Booker
77. RVD
78. That hot chick in the third row who's obviously drunk and just flashed the camera.
79. Kurt Angle's themesong
80. Me
81. HHH
82. The Undertaker
83. Tables in general.
84. The rest of the roster.

The crowds are dead right now, but don't pretend like Jeff Hardy and the Undertaker have equal credibility just because neither are getting monster pops right now.

(edited by Debaser on 25.6.02 1833)
AndrewGilkison
Linguica








Since: 20.6.02

Since last post: 3284 days
Last activity: 2560 days
#8 Posted on
Jericho was doing fine as Undisputed Champion, but the booking for his reign was so half-assed and poor that no one took it seriously. His title defenses were so little hyped that it seemed WWE was ashamed they were taking place.

But I guess it was all Jericho's fault that he couldn't polish the turd booking that he was given to work with. *rolleyes*.



"Not a great worker, but one hell of a gimmick"
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

Since last post: 3561 days
Last activity: 3030 days
AIM:  
#9 Posted on

    Originally posted by Freeway420

    Simple Lesson: Heels are entertaining, but they don't draw. Most long-term champions are faces, because faces draw money.



I think Ric Flair's run with the NWA belt sort of refutes that. Faces do draw money, but face CHAMPIONS don't, necessarily. Or at least, any more than what they would without the belt.

Look at it this way. The good guy (almost) always wins, right? Especially when it's all on the line. So the only reason to watch is to see that jerk heel get beaten. And hell... if the face goes in as the champ and LOSES, you've spent money on a downer of an event.

Now, you have a HEEL champ, and the face is going up against him, you've got mystery. Will the heel cheat to keep his belt, the bastard? Or will the face beat the odds and win? You gotta pay to find out! You WANT to see him lose, just because he's a cheating son-of-a-bitch, and if he wins the face just has to try, try again.

At least, that's the way it's SUPPOSED to work. The writing's bad enough now that they could screw up even the most tried-and-true of stories.



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka: HE raised the briefcase!
Yun
Salami








Since: 2.1.02
From: Just outside Dudleyville

Since last post: 3058 days
Last activity: 3006 days
AIM:  
#10 Posted on

    Originally posted by Debaser
    Yes it's a midcard title. Look for the Hurricane to take it from Taker on Thursday in a rare "choke slam challenge" main event. He will then drop it to Raven in an impromptu match the last 5 minutes of the show, who will defend it soley on Heat for the next three weeks before jobbing it to Crash Holly at Vengeance after a fluke rollup. This will be in the opening match.

    Crash will announce on RAW that he's reinstituting the 24/7 rule for the Undisputed Title, but won't have any takers because no one cares about such a lame-ass midcard title anymore. Crash will vanish off TV when the bookers run out of ideas for him, only to be pinned by Terri during the Heat before Summerslam. She will then go on to face Brock Lesnar in a main event universally panned as "disturbing, misogynistic, and just plain icky" by pretty much everyone. Hyatte will give it 4 of whatever gimmick rating he's using for that Mop Up, just to maintain his edge.

    Vince will sell the WWE to the French shortly after this, and invest all his money in the porn industry.

    ***

    Seriously. Right now the WWE's hierarchy of overness is:

    1. The Rock
    2. Hogan in Canada
    3. The Rock's elbow
    4. The Rock's eyebrow
    5. The Rock's "strudel"
    6-75. All of the Rock's other bodyparts
    76. Booker
    77. RVD
    78. That hot chick in the third row who's obviously drunk and just flashed the camera.
    79. Kurt Angle's themesong
    80. Me
    81. HHH
    82. The Undertaker
    83. Tables in general.
    84. The rest of the roster.

    The crowds are dead right now, but don't pretend like Jeff Hardy and the Undertaker have equal credibility just because neither are getting monster pops right now.

    (edited by Debaser on 25.6.02 1833)



I think you're seriously underestimating the overness of Angle's theme song.



Everything's cool when you're Yun [point] Cheol [point] Su [point]
WyldeWolf1
Boerewors








Since: 20.6.02
From: Florida

Since last post: 4244 days
Last activity: 4244 days
#11 Posted on
I seem to remember HHH's title reign (back when he and Steph "ran the WWF") as a big draw. The Rock was over huge, but the plot is just so much better when the face has something to accomplish.

Also, I remember heel heat for Jericho, though the writing sucked. Not classic Honky Tonk heat, mind you, but heat nonetheless. Honestly, I think they should let the guy write for himself. He was great in WCW when he came up with most of his own bits. It's not like the WWE team has been full of gems lately.

They should just call it the World Title now. Who wants to be "World Wrestling Entertainment Champion"? That sounds ridiculous.
Santa Sangre
Bockwurst








Since: 21.6.02
From: Germany

Since last post: 283 days
Last activity: 171 days
#12 Posted on
What the world title sceen is missing is a good long term battle over the belt. Classics long-term fueds like Foley/HHH, Rock/Austin, and Austin/HHH showed how much the belt meant to them. Any combo of RVD, Brock, Booker, Angle, Benoit, or Eddy fighting for the belt for a longer amount of time than one month could be just what the world title mix needs.



"All games aside, all lames aside
I'm a rebel, with all K's combined
"All things in line; I ain't heard of y'all
I'm from Murder March
One of the illest spitters with a verbal bark
Yo where your burners at?
Fizzy Wo' will raise the heat like a thermostat"

- MOP
Freeway
Scrapple








Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

Since last post: 117 days
Last activity: 88 days
#13 Posted on
From Robert McKee's "Story", the premiere screenwriting book:

"The protangonist is only as compelling as the forces of antagonism that he's faced with"

Meaning? The Rock drew because he had a STRONG HEEL to draw against [in Triple H]. The reason that Jericho didn't draw amazingly well is that the faces weren't very strong, they were scattered. And The Undertaker and Triple H don't draw because they aren't bouncing off each other well. Austin/McMahon drew because McMahon was/is a very strong heel. Foley drew because of The Rock. RVD drew because of Austin and Lynn and countless others. Hogan drew because of Andre and Macho Man and Flair. Flair drew because he had a million faces running after him. It's The Honky Tonk Theory: people want to see the heel lose, and they'll pay to watch if they think it'll happen.



Bart: Hey, immigrants! Beat it! Country's full!
Sailor: OK people, you heard the lady. Back into the hold. We'll try Canada.
[the immigrants moan]
-- "The City of New York Vs. Homer Simpson"


"That's what the Internet is for, slandering others anonymously" Banky Edwards (Jason Lee) in Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back

The Vile One
Chourico








Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 4258 days
Last activity: 4134 days
#14 Posted on
Freeway, actually the long term champions are the heels not the faces. Look at it. Kurt Angle in his first reign held the title longer than anyone else since Shawn Michaels last reign. Stone Cold Steve Austin's first reign as a heel champion lasted nearly six months. When is the last time someone in the WWF held the world title that long? when Triple H won the title in early 2000 he held it for nearly 4 months, longer than anyone else did in 1998 or 1999. Shawn Michaels last reign was pretty long and he was a heel. The general idea is that faces are better contenders for the world title than they are champions.




"It is a strange fate that we suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing."
-Boromir
Freeway
Scrapple








Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

Since last post: 117 days
Last activity: 88 days
#15 Posted on

    Originally posted by The Vile One
    Freeway, actually the long term champions are the heels not the faces. Look at it. Kurt Angle in his first reign held the title longer than anyone else since Shawn Michaels last reign. Stone Cold Steve Austin's first reign as a heel champion lasted nearly six months. When is the last time someone in the WWF held the world title that long? when Triple H won the title in early 2000 he held it for nearly 4 months, longer than anyone else did in 1998 or 1999. Shawn Michaels last reign was pretty long and he was a heel. The general idea is that faces are better contenders for the world title than they are champions.


*DING*DING*DING* Give this man the No-Prize! You're exactly right! When faces are dodging heels, it's fun, but you're still hoping for the face to vanquish the heel. When heels are dodging faces, we're hoping for the face to win and change the status quo. The more compelling the forces of antagonism (The Heel), the more compelling the protangonist (The Face), the more money gets made.



Bart: Hey, immigrants! Beat it! Country's full!
Sailor: OK people, you heard the lady. Back into the hold. We'll try Canada.
[the immigrants moan]
-- "The City of New York Vs. Homer Simpson"


"That's what the Internet is for, slandering others anonymously" Banky Edwards (Jason Lee) in Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back

sephjnr
Weisswurst








Since: 17.1.02
From: Bristol, England

Since last post: 2017 days
Last activity: 1932 days
#16 Posted on
great point- as good as a champion can be, the challengers should be made to be BETTER- even if it's for just one night.

Genuine threat = champ rising to the game = better heat = $$$$



COME ON TURKEY!!!

.

Sephiroth Junior's Final Thought:
Sod it, there's always Wimbledon...
naked_mideon
Loukanika








Since: 27.6.02
From: bin laden

Since last post: 4313 days
Last activity: 4312 days
#17 Posted on
I'd like to see some wrestler come out (please God let it be Tommy Dreamer) at the start of a PPV and say "I dispute that belt."

They could no longer claim the belt to be Undisputed and would have to rename it The World Championship, Disputed by Tommy Dreamer.

This, and only this can restore the credibility.



Tyson, Tyson, Tyson, right hand, right hand, michaels is down!
KwikLime
Cotto








Since: 27.6.02

Since last post: 4233 days
Last activity: 4139 days
#18 Posted on
Why do people think the title has all of a sudden lost credibility? It has no less credibility now than it had in 99 when it was being bounced around changing about once a month and going to Vince and Big Show do you??

It's still the top title...nothings changed there, and whoever they put it on is who they are looking to carry the promotion, even if it is only for a short period of time. (Except Jericho at WM, but you can't expect that to take preference over Rock-Hogan)

And the IC title less credible? Well...that seems to go up and down. With Rob and Eddy having a good 3 month feud over it, I'd say it is far more credible now than it was 3 years ago, where between WM and KoTR it was held by Road Dogg, Goldust & Jobfather plus whatever other lower midcarders Russo switched it to ever week that were so exciting I can't even remember them.

It bounced back though with Y2J/Kurt/Benoit but a year after that it was back down with Lance Storm (and as much as the net likes him he's a lower midcarder at best in WWE) and Prince Albert.

So IMO it's pretty random as to how credible the IC is at any period in time.



KwikLime
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3288 days
Last activity: 3282 days
#19 Posted on
Bring back Greg the Hammer and the IC title will have instant respect.

DMC



"You! You're sumthin' you!" -Robert DeNiro, Analyze This
SmooveK
Goetta








Since: 27.6.02
From: Fukushima, Japan

Since last post: 3567 days
Last activity: 3256 days
#20 Posted on

    Originally posted by naked_mideon
    I'd like to see some wrestler come out (please God let it be Tommy Dreamer) at the start of a PPV and say "I dispute that belt."

    They could no longer claim the belt to be Undisputed and would have to rename it The World Championship, Disputed by Tommy Dreamer.

    This, and only this can restore the credibility.



I dispute it now. The WWE champion is NOT Undisputed World Champion until he defeats Webb for the XPW World Heavyweight Title, Keiji Muto for the Triple Crown, and Ken Shamrock for the newly legitimized NWA title.

Yes.

-K



See the newly minimalisticated SmooveK.com today. Smoove Komics, pictures, and submit your loyalty to SmooveLand. It's everything you've ever wanted in a website, exactly!
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That was a really good read. I never knew that the 2000 Rumble foul-up was legitimate, I just assumed that they made it up. If they had never brought any attention to it, I never would have thought twice about the ending of the match.
- Alex, Big Show interview (2004)
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