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The W - Current Events & Politics - Democratic Responce & Eletorial College (Page 2)
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Bizzle Izzle
Bockwurst








Since: 26.6.02
From: New Jersey, USA

Since last post: 117 days
Last activity: 117 days
#21 Posted on

    Originally posted by Tom Dean
    It's not like rooting for the damn Steelers or something. It's supposed to be about peoples' lives and what is fair and right. It seems like people on both sides would rather "have their side win" than evaluate situations objectively and come to the most reasonable conclusion.


Well, if the Democrats win then I will personally lose because the democrats love raising taxes so I will lose more of my money. It's bad enougth that 43-45% of my money is STOLEN from me before it even sees my bank account. If the Dems win more, then I lose more. It's that simple. That's why I personally "root" for the Dems to lose everywhere and everytime. I don't consider the Republicans to be my side though. It's just that the old cliche holds true here: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". As long as the Democrats steal from me the Republicans will have my vote.

But I guess I have to agree that the partianship shown from both sides is unfortunate. However, for me it's necessary.




Maiden RULES!!!
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 234 days
Last activity: 35 days
#22 Posted on
Because obviously, no matter why they consider themselves Liberal, their whole goal in life is to take your money away. I'm sorry, I just don't seem to see things quite as black & white as the rest of you.

-Jag

Oh yeah, and on the "Winner Takes All" structure.... doesn't that basically lock you into the damn two party system? So if you don't have a Third Party canadite on your ballot then any third party state represtentatives automaticaly lose? That's just wonderful.

Me personally, I'd rather vote for people and positions I believed in, rather than if they had a little D or an R beside their name.



"You gotta hate somebody before this is over. Them, me, it doesn't matter."

"Hate, who do I hate? You tell me."

"Who do you love?"

-Wintermute to Case in William Gibson's Neuromancer
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3510 days
Last activity: 3504 days
#23 Posted on
"Of course, if you truly DO believe that "the motive for anything in the media [is] showing something supposedly evil and claiming it's all the fault of the damn, dirty, demonic Republicans", then whatever. Personaly, it strikes me as an incredibly hyperbolic overstatement not worthy of serious thought. Even if you think media bias towards the left does exist, you don't have to agree with that rant, and really shouldn't if you are a thinking person."

Of course it's hyperbolie, but why should that keep me from agreeing with the essense of it? If that bothers people, I'm sorry, but there are just as many (if not more) on this forum who agree with liberal rants too. As I attempted to argue in a past thread, I feel the media bias *is* there at many levels, so I have at least tried to be a "thinking person" on the issue. But even thinking people are allowed to vent on occasion.

DMC



TRISH!!!! GET THE TABLE!!!!
BoromirMark
Potato korv








Since: 8.5.02
From: Milan-Ann Arbor, MI

Since last post: 307 days
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#24 Posted on
Mmm, I state my opinion and I'm a troll. Lovely. It just proves my freakin' point, anyone with a conservative mindset is automatically cast as some subhuman demon who doesn't deserve life, all thanks to a media portrayal. Nice.
drjayphd
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 22.4.02
From: Long Island

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#25 Posted on

    Originally posted by Bizzle Izzle
    (turbosnip) It's just that the old cliche holds true here: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".


Saddam? The Taliban/mujahedin?



Today's Out-Of-Context Quote, Courtesy of Fuzzy Logic:

"I want to have JR's lovechild."
Tom Dean
Bockwurst








Since: 30.8.02
From: New York, NY

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#26 Posted on
No, you're a troll because you always state your opinion (on any subject, not just politics) as an overblown, angry rant. Claiming that I suggested you were "some subhuman demon who doesn't deserve life" being just the latest example of that.



Three Faces of Dean: Teenage Riot, T.R., and now this guy

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NotAWrestler
Pinkelwurst








Since: 6.9.02

Since last post: 4398 days
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#27 Posted on
>If the recount had gone through, Bush still would've won,
>still would've became the president through the Electoral
>College, still be where we are today.

And that is the most corrupt part of a corrupt system; the fact that even though Gore won the state of Florida, the Electoral College would've rendered everything null and void anyway. Personally, I believe all states should submit the voter tallies to a central nonpartisan counting group (hell, it'll create more jobs which are desperately needed), where the tallies will be added up regardless of state, as they should be. That way, a conservative vote in New York counts every bit as much as a liberal's. "One man, one vote" isn't THAT tough a concept.

EDIT: And Bizzle, Bush is nobody's friend, unless you work for Big Tobacco or Enron.

(edited by NotAWrestler on 18.9.02 2252)


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-"Mizark" Henry
Torchslasher
Knackwurst








Since: 17.1.02
From: New F'n Jersey

Since last post: 26 days
Last activity: 7 days
#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.44
There is no chance that you could get a central nonpartisan group to count votes. Even people who vote for an independent party would still lead toward one candidate if they had to choose.

And I'm a Christian, so Bush is my friend too.



"Oh would you stop being all stealthy and just get in the truck"- Tom Servo
kazhayashi81
Potato korv








Since: 17.6.02
From: Buenos Aires, Argentina

Since last post: 2737 days
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#29 Posted on
And do we really need MORE government jobs?








"You can save the planet, I'll save your seat"- Uncle Kracker, Better Days
"Confucious say: Man with hand in pocket feel cocky all day!"- Crank Yankers
CRZ
Big Brother
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Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#30 Posted on

    Originally posted by NotAWrestler
    >...the fact that even though Gore won the state of Florida...
Gore didn't win the state of Florida.



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drjayphd
Scrapple
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Since: 22.4.02
From: Long Island

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#31 Posted on

    Originally posted by CRZ

      Originally posted by NotAWrestler
      >...the fact that even though Gore won the state of Florida...
    Gore didn't win the state of Florida.


The only way anyone could say that Gore won was if there was a very specific set of guidelines for the recount. I don't remember what they were, but if they counted everything, I remember, Bush woulda won anyway.



Today's Out-Of-Context Quote, Courtesy of Fuzzy Logic:

"I want to have JR's lovechild."
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1304 days
Last activity: 1101 days
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by NotAWrestler
    And that is the most corrupt part of a corrupt system; the fact that even though Gore won the state of Florida, the Electoral College would've rendered everything null and void anyway.


Great, now the Constitution is corrupt because of the Electoral College. And Gore won Florida? Please. Actually, Gore would probably have won Florida if he didn't do the good Democratic thing and call the local platoon of trial lawyers to create nuiscence and nonsense.


    Originally posted by NotAWrestler
    Personally, I believe all states should submit the voter tallies to a central nonpartisan counting group (hell, it'll create more jobs which are desperately needed), where the tallies will be added up regardless of state, as they should be. That way, a conservative vote in New York counts every bit as much as a liberal's. "One man, one vote" isn't THAT tough a concept.


Irreleant when factoring in the college.


    Originally posted by NotAWrestler
    And Bizzle, Bush is nobody's friend, unless you work for Big Tobacco or Enron


Bush is my friend because I am a taxpayer he lowered taxes and was working on cutting the budget before the war.

By the way, regarding Enron: Does the phrase "Global Crossing" mean anything to you?
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 3 days
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#33 Posted on

    Originally posted by drjayphd

      Originally posted by CRZ

        Originally posted by NotAWrestler
        >...the fact that even though Gore won the state of Florida...
      Gore didn't win the state of Florida.


    The only way anyone could say that Gore won was if there was a very specific set of guidelines for the recount. I don't remember what they were, but if they counted everything, I remember, Bush woulda won anyway.



Actually, if they had done a recount in only the counties Gore wanted, Bush would've still won. Had they recounted the entire state, Gore would've won. Which means Gore got more votes in Florida. Which means Gore should've won Florida. Which means Gore should've won the election.

I wonder, and I don't expect you to answer this honestly, but if the election had gone down the exact same way - only Bush won the popular vote and Gore won the electoral college, would you still think it was the greatest election system on Earth?



"The only difference between lilies and turds are those humankind have agreed upon, and I don't always agree."
---George Carlin

"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music."
---Anon.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1304 days
Last activity: 1101 days
#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
    I wonder, and I don't expect you to answer this honestly, but if the election had gone down the exact same way - only Bush won the popular vote and Gore won the electoral college, would you still think it was the greatest election system on Earth?


My honest, complete no bullshit answer is Yes. The reason? Everybody knew the rules of the game before we started to play. If that scenario had played out my reaction woudlv'e been "Man that sucks" and moved on to start worrying about 2004. Not whining two years later that "Bush isn't the president" and all of the other stuff really out to lunch Dems do.
Bizzle Izzle
Bockwurst








Since: 26.6.02
From: New Jersey, USA

Since last post: 117 days
Last activity: 117 days
#35 Posted on

    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
      I wonder, and I don't expect you to answer this honestly, but if the election had gone down the exact same way - only Bush won the popular vote and Gore won the electoral college, would you still think it was the greatest election system on Earth?


    My honest, complete no bullshit answer is Yes. The reason? Everybody knew the rules of the game before we started to play. If that scenario had played out my reaction woudlv'e been "Man that sucks" and moved on to start worrying about 2004. Not whining two years later that "Bush isn't the president" and all of the other stuff really out to lunch Dems do.



I have to agree with Grimis. I would be pissed as hell no matter what the circumstances were that put Gore in office, but I believe in the electoral college (I also believe strongly in States' Rights). The thing that kills me about a lot of the uneducated whiners out there bitching about "the stolen election" is that this happened before. We've had a president win the office without winning the popular vote before. stop acting so surprised and crying for a change in the electoral system just because your boy lost.




Maiden RULES!!!
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3510 days
Last activity: 3504 days
#36 Posted on
And when Rutherford B. Hayes won such an election in 1876, Democrats continued to make fun of the election and call him "His Fraudulency" for years after. Nothing has changed.

How do we know Gore would have won if the whole state was recounted? The problem with the whole thing is that there essentially WERE NO standards, and it all became very subjective. After a number of recounts, Bush continued to come out on top. Gore just wanted things to be recounted until he finally came out 2 or 3 votes on top, and that is ridiculous. At some point the line had to be drawn, because then GORE would have been charged with stealing the election. In an election so close, one person is bound to get some kind of shaft; that's just the nature of an imperfect system in an imperfect world. Deal with it.

After all, it's not like Gore totally blew Bush out of the water on the popular vote. In fact I would have to look it up, but I think it was the closest margin in presidential history (although Kennedy-Nixon in 1960 may still hold the record, not sure).

DMC

EDIT: 1960 was closer. But 2000 was still relatively close.

(edited by DMC on 20.9.02 1022)

(edited by DMC on 20.9.02 1030)
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 25 days
Last activity: 11 hours
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#37 Posted on
Personally I voted for neither candidate involved in the FL debacle, but that doesn't change the fact that I have severe issues with the notion of the electoral college. I believe that in this day and age, the college actually causes more states to become irrelevant than actually encourages them to be a vital part of the political process.

If you look at the preparations for 2004, I would estimate that operatives for any major candidate know that some 30-35 states are almost totally out of play for one candidate or the other. The Democratic candidate can almost completely ignore the entire Southeast (with the possible exception of GA) and pretty much do nothing to harm his chances of actual election. The GOP candidate, rather than spending campaign money in Michigan, Illinois, California, or much of the Northeast, might as well just burn the cash instead in a big bonfire as that's about the usefulness he would get from it. And if you live in a state with less than 10 electoral votes, you might as well not exist, and if you're lucky the wife of the VP candidate might make a stop in your state capitol at some point during the campaign.

As it stands right now, there is no reason to focus on the needs of wants of people in most of the states due to the electoral college. However, if the act of moving the margin in Nebraska from 57% GOP - 43% Dem to say 54-45 would have an impact on the election, then candidates would by necessity have to consider the entire country, instead of simply their base states and a couple contested ones. For me it's a great system because as an IL voter, even though my state isn't that much of a toss-up, the huge electoral votes up for grabs in my state mean we get paid a lot of attention. But the voters in a state with no real hope of being tipped from one side to the other, and which doesn't have a large number of electoral votes really are not going to be very relevant to the process. And when we have a mechanism which renders voters irrelevant simply because of the state in which they happen to live, I believe it is time to remove that mechanism from the system.





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Confusatron
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Since: 30.8.02
From: Orlando, FL

Since last post: 4445 days
Last activity: 4438 days
#38 Posted on
I'm sure the Democrats (particularly here in Florida) are feeling particularly sensitive about the election problems, because the Democratic Nelson/Reno primary is rehashing so many of the bad memories. This instance was probably more troubling because the conflict was between two Democrats, so they couldn't cloak the threats of demanding a recount as opposition to a Republican theft. The Congressional debate probably couldn't have affected the outcome, as the Federal government probably wouldn't want to get mired in a state-exclusive election, but it was so reminiscent of the Presidential election it could have spurred the desire to make more of an issue from the "make every vote count" rhetoric. Warrants mentioning.
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