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The W - Pro Wrestling - Defining Moment (Page 2)
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SKLOKAZOID
Bierwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 1683 days
Last activity: 813 days
#21 Posted on
Hogan vs Sting was their WrestleMania 2000. It was the precise moment they "Jumped the Shark", because a match that they had built to for 18 months had the most deflating conclusion possible. It was WCW's biggest match ever, their most epic storyline, and the possibilities that would have been created had their been a "correct ending" to the match would have taken WCW to the next level, but it never achieved that because of short-sightedness.

Sting could have been their big star to combat Steve Austin with the buildup and popularity he had at the time, but Bischoff still saw Hogan as his big star and that was the ultimate fault of WCW: Bischoff felt he owed Hogan everything.

And, like WM2K, business continued at an all-time high for WCW, but that high business can be mainly attributed to the momentum created before that moment. After a year, and the Goldberg loss/fingerpoke, people finally realized that everything in WCW was going nowhere as they had established a trend.

Within four months of Starrcade '97, Hogan regained the WCW Title, with a non-sensical Bret Hart turn to boot, and that was they began to plummet downward. They did have that big Hogan/Goldberg match saved up, but ultimately, Goldberg was all hype and no substance, so even an extended Goldberg reign without the Nash loss would have been a failure unless they used it to build up someone like Sting or Bret Hart, which would have been another chance for WCW to redeem itself, but no, they chose Nash then Hogan again. Idiots.

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 22.7.02 0733)
DrewMG
Weisswurst








Since: 16.7.02

Since last post: 7250 days
Last activity: 7241 days
#22 Posted on
I don't think WM 2000 was really that bad. At the time, it was dissapointing to see Trip walk with the belt, but in retrospect I'm glad. It showed that they weren't going to always give the face the nod at Wrestlemania. HHH was a very strong champ, and him keeping the strap at WM was a big moment for him and for the fed. The only problem I had with that match was the uselessness of bringing Foley back. He looked horrible.

Besides, keeping the belt on HHH made for a fucking incredible Backlash 2000.



"I am an explosion of real fruit flavor!"
-Diesel Sweeties
SKLOKAZOID
Bierwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 1683 days
Last activity: 813 days
#23 Posted on

    Originally posted by DrewMG
    I don't think WM 2000 was really that bad. At the time, it was dissapointing to see Trip walk with the belt, but in retrospect I'm glad. It showed that they weren't going to always give the face the nod at Wrestlemania. HHH was a very strong champ, and him keeping the strap at WM was a big moment for him and for the fed. The only problem I had with that match was the uselessness of bringing Foley back. He looked horrible.

    Besides, keeping the belt on HHH made for a fucking incredible Backlash 2000.



Exactly. Backlash 2000 was better than WrestleMania 2000. :)
WhoBettahThanDeion
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02

Since last post: 7819 days
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#24 Posted on
Whichever pay per view the 60 Minute Iron Man was on was better than the both of them.

Also, anyone remember which pay per view Malenko faced Scotty, thus making me like the guy for a month afterwords just based on Malenko carrying his ass to that classic?



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Watching RAW and Smackdown doesn't cost anymore than your posts do. And so, like a good consumer, I'm tuning you out.



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ekedolphin
Scrapple








Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

Since last post: 481 days
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.52
Sklokazoid did a good job of explaining why the Hogan/Sting Starrcade match result was a bad idea, but he didn't actually explain what happened.

So here's what happened. Sting was pushed as the only hope for WCW against the nWo. For months he'd come down from the rafters and kick the shit out of them whenever he was needed most, like when the nWo was jumping Luger, Giant and Page.

Anyway... Sting vs. Hogan was built up to for over a year. This was the chance for Sting to strike the decisive blow...

And WCW screwed it up. From the outset of the match, Sting pretty much got his ass kicked. Hogan even dropped the leg on him, and Nick Patrick counted 1-2-3 in what was actually sort of a slow count.

Bret Hart came out immediately and bitched that the count was way too fast, and he's not gonna let Sting get screwed by a referee because he knows how that feels... you know, traditional Bret bitching about Montreal stuff.

Because Bret was the referee for an earlier match that night between Eric Bischoff and Larry Zbysko, he allegedly had full referee powers for the entire night. So he restarted the match, and within short order Sting had made Hogan tap out to the Scorpion Deathlock-- which is how the match should have ended in the first place.

Sting retained the title against Hogan the following night on Nitro. The last part of the match was cut off, but apparently the match ended in pretty much the same way as it had at Starrcade. Within two weeks, JJ Dillon ordered Sting to vacate the title, and Sting won it back in yet another controversial finish against Hogan at SuperBrawl. Randy Savage's interference allowed Sting to win the title back, and Hogan's chest was spraypainted “WCW”.

Savage and Hogan went on to feud, while Sting retained the World Title against Scott Hall at Uncensored. During the Savage-Hogan match, which was a cage match, Savage was getting beaten down by the nWo when Sting came out to help him. But Savage actually attacked Sting again, leading the way to a Sting-Savage match at Spring Stampede which Savage won with an assist from Kevin Nash.

Savage's title reign lasted one day. He was defeated by Hollywood Hogan with the assistance of Bret Hart. The seeds of the Wolfpac split had been sown, but Hogan was again given the belt so he could disappear for another few months before losing it to Goldberg.

And that pretty much covers the first half of 1998, as far as the title scenario goes.



“And each and every one of you, when you see me, you will not put your eyes directly on me-- you will look to the ground and you will refer to me as 'Lord Master.'”

Kevin Nash, January 17, 2000

Two-Time, Two-Time Randomly Selected Weiner of the Day, 5/27/02 and 7/3/02

asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 4864 days
Last activity: 430 days
#26 Posted on
Okay, I've never understood their motivation for the booking behind Starrcade '97. I've only seen clips of it (and ekedolphin's great refresher), but it seemed like such a screwy ending.. why have Bret Hart cheat to get your top face over??



"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex

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SKLOKAZOID
Bierwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 1683 days
Last activity: 813 days
#27 Posted on
ekedolphin did a great job detailing the history of WCW during that time. I didn't want to make my post too long, but I could go into exactly WHY Hogan vs Sting was so epic to begin with going back to 1994 when Hogan made his debut and Sting gracefully stepped aside only to watch it all go to hell with the nWo, who got the fans to turn against Sting. But, I won't. Let's just say that everything from the introduction of the nWo to Starrcade '97 was a really good story, and everything after that was lame attempts to "turn things around" without actually having to change things.

One of the main reasons giving Hogan the belt back was so incredibly stupid was that Bret was the guy that cost Hogan the belt in the first place. He did a sudden 180 with seemingly no motivation at all. RATINGS~!? Ratings, my as.

The Hogan/Savage match itself did do big ratings, and so did the subsequent Hogan/Goldberg match, but it was still the beginning of the end. Hogan was no longer a consistent draw because all of his big storylines lacked direction after Starrcade '97. What they should have done was run with Sting and had him feud with guys like Hall, Raven, and Nash while Hogan would fight the "Wolfpac/nWo" in an attempt to redeem himself to the fans, but Bischoff was stupid so that didn't happen. I could go into a bunch of different fantasy scenarios, but it was all a lost cause after that.

That's what I see with today's WWE. They dropped all of their big storylines to put HHH and/or the McMahons over (HHH trying to kill Austin, retiring Foley with no consequences, never REALLY losing to The Rock) much like WCW did with Hogan.

Hogan at least LOST at Starrcade '97, though.


EDIT: asteroidboy, Bret cheated to help Sting win probably to protect Hogan's image and to create CONTROVERSY~!, which would lead (in Bischoff's mind) to a successful rematch, which we all know is bullshit if you don't pay off in the first match.


(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 22.7.02 1152)
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 6910 days
Last activity: 6904 days
#28 Posted on
I agree with bigwavedave. The firing of all the women (to supposedly "de-Russo-fy" the company) really hurt their TV numbers big time. It was like every show became a total bore after that point. Like it or not, "divas" were a major part of 90s wrestling and continue to be today. If there is one thing that McMahon has been right on over NWA/WCW, its giving female wrestlers/performers more air time and marketing them big time. WCW had some good womens talent to do something more with (Asya, Torrie Wilson, Tylene Buck, Kim Page, etc.) but they never pushed them very far.

DMC

(edited by DMC on 22.7.02 1324)

(edited by DMC on 22.7.02 1325)

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BobHollySTILLRules
Bockwurst








Since: 3.1.02
From: C-Bus, Ohio

Since last post: 7819 days
Last activity: 7819 days
#29 Posted on

    Originally posted by A-MOL
    Hogan vs Goldberg 8:11 long? Who knew they could both go that long?


Hehehehe. However, I think every Hogan PPV match this year has been longer that that.



I am Mr. Positivity! Sometimes.

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deadbeater
Morcilla








Since: 12.2.02
From: Parts unknown

Since last post: 7806 days
Last activity: 7806 days
#30 Posted on
The WCW fired the whole stable of women, including some of the most popular and influential in the business. They also had a viable women's wrestling division (it was so deep that Mona, now Molly, was the jobber in residence at the time!). They also had indisputably the best cruiserweight division north of the border. Even the mid-card got strong pop (Disco Fever!! Yea yea yea yea!!) Yet the two very strong divisions were subordinate to the veteran-heavy heavyweight division, that featured a disinterested Sting, a Hogan who later ran out of inspiration, a still-sulking Bret Hart, Nash and Hall, who left their work ethic in El Segundo, and Goldberg, whose greeness was proven by his funny arm injury and later a bad kick that ended Hart's career. By the time they recognized the saleability of Booker T, it was too late.


(edited by deadbeater on 22.7.02 1721)

"Business has just picked up" says JR. Then right on cue, Molly enters the arena! Never was JR any better in introducing someone. --Raw 7/15
FLRockAndLaw
Kishke








Since: 2.1.02
From: Central Florida, somewhere between Orlando and Tampa, U.S.A.

Since last post: 2970 days
Last activity: 2285 days
#31 Posted on
Interesting that no one's brought up one other big incident:

Chris Benoit beats Sid for the WCW World Title on PPV in January 2000... only to have Benoit vacate the title and quit the company the next day, and take Dean Malenko, Perry Saturn, and Eddie Guerrero with him.

That was the moment in time when I felt like WCW was done for. I was just wrong about the time frame - I gave them six months; they survived for another fourteen months.



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insideSOLUTION
Chorizo








Since: 3.1.02
From: toronto, ontario, canada

Since last post: 7792 days
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ICQ:  
#32 Posted on

    Originally posted by WhoBettahThanDeion
    Whichever pay per view the 60 Minute Iron Man was on was better than the both of them.

    Also, anyone remember which pay per view Malenko faced Scotty, thus making me like the guy for a month afterwords just based on Malenko carrying his ass to that classic?



malenko vs scotty too hotty was on backlash 2000, which also featured an absolutely smokin' match between edge and christian vs road dogg and x-pac, as well as the first major benoit/jericho wwf ppv encounter, a pretty good essa rios vs eddie guerrero match, another great rock vs hhh match, and ... THE SHOWSTER, as well as kurt angle micwork.

one of my favorite shows of all time.
Scooter Trash
Chourico








Since: 23.7.02
From: Indiana

Since last post: 1691 days
Last activity: 1537 days
#33 Posted on
I don't know if this was a defining moment, but "Blood Runs Cold" should have clued people in of what was to come.
DrewMG
Weisswurst








Since: 16.7.02

Since last post: 7250 days
Last activity: 7241 days
#34 Posted on
Chucky, the evil doll, and the (Ultimate) Warrior.

Halloween Havoc, 98. (or was Chucky 99?)



"I am an explosion of real fruit flavor!"
-Diesel Sweeties
A Fan
Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 6992 days
Last activity: 6992 days
#35 Posted on
I would also like to respond to the similarity between Starcadde 97 and WM 2000. There are very much the same and the different in very ways. Wrestlemania 2000 to me was the mistake that was over time was rectified through Backlash to Commissioner Foley to SummerSlam. With Starcadde, it was a mistake that kept getting worse and worse all the time. The more WCW kept bringing the subject up, the more it hurt the fans.

If WCW just kept the belt on Sting that night and had Hogan jobbed to him on Nitro all would have been right. Instead Eric let the mistake of the refree count seem more obvious and the match itself made Sting look weaker which I thought at that point in time was impossible to do. Still, Hogan was seen in Eric's eyes as the cash cow even though the anti-Hogan and NWO virbe was getting stronger each day. It made no sense, but that sums up WCW after Starcadde 97.

When HHH left with the belt, I have to say that it was one of the more disappointing nights of my life. The set-up was perfect for either Rock or Mick to win and through the night, the heels seem to win at every turn minus a Jericho title and the destruction of DX. When the main event came it would have made sense to put the face over instead out they put HHH over. In hindsight, it made HHH the most hated heel ever in the WWF. It also lead to a number of good moves, but for myself personally I still feel cheated that HHH has not paid for his crimes for not putting the faces like Jericho and Rock over, for retiring Foley, making the Radicals heels and hitting Austin with a car. Granted most of these are storyline things, but it still hurts to see Mick, Jericho and Rock never fully getting their revenge on HHH. The WWF was succesful after that move, but it is possible to find a correlation between a loss of business since then to now. Yet, the loss of business was nothing like WCW did and it may have to do with the downward spin of wrestling in general. Yet, there is smoke in WM 2000.

A Fan- Now that HHH is heel again will continue is no job policy?
Dahak
Frankfurter








Since: 12.5.02
From: Junction City OR.

Since last post: 5461 days
Last activity: 5114 days
#36 Posted on
Well, since it's the WWE I would guess they will show the whole Austin, HBK, Mike Tyson thing. That did lead to WCW losing the ratings battle.
But to me the finger poke of doom and Foley winning the title was the turning point. The WWF had some good shows with SCSA and the push of the Rock. WCW fired back by having Nash end Goldberg's streak and then Nash jobbing the title.



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BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

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Last activity: 318 days
#37 Posted on

    Interesting that no one's brought up one other big incident:

    Chris Benoit beats Sid for the WCW World Title on PPV in January 2000... only to have Benoit vacate the title and quit the company the next day, and take Dean Malenko, Perry Saturn, and Eddie Guerrero with him.

    That was the moment in time when I felt like WCW was done for. I was just wrong about the time frame - I gave them six months; they survived for another fourteen months.


I agree. If the WWE is going to put a *spin* on something it's going to be this. The finger poke hurts the image of Nash/Hogan and Bischoff who are all on the WWE roster right now.

However, showing the WWE STEALING 4 of WCW's top stars and 2 who are currently near the main event looks really, really good.





ekedolphin
Scrapple








Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

Since last post: 481 days
Last activity: 5 days
#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.52
Well...

“Stealing” is a strong word. Benoit, Malenko, Guerrero and Saturn asked for their releases shortly after Souled Out 2000. A lot of that was due to their disappointment over Vince Russo being removed from the booking committee.

It seems hard to believe, but when the crap filter around Vince Russo was active, WCW was actually doing some very good things, including pushing a lot of their younger stars. Chris Benoit finally got several televised title reigns, starting with the Tag Team Title in March, the U.S. Title in August, the TV Title in September and a brief U.S. Title reign in December. Chris Benoit/Jeff Jarrett was a very, very good feud.

When Russo was removed from the booking committee (as it turned out, temporarily), The Radicalz expressed their desire to leave. Not so much just because Russo left, but because Kevin Sullivan took his spot on the booking committee. Sullivan booked Benoit to win the WCW World Title (despite Benoit's wishes) to try and get him to stay, but Benoit would have none of it.

According to Benoit, he asked not to be booked to win the World Title. Barring that, he asked to be allowed to lose the World Title on WCW television before leaving the company. Instead, WCW, in its infinite wisdom, decided to vacate the title and have Sid Vicious win it, while they let all four Radicalz go.

When the four of them appeared together on WWF television, it felt weird to me in several different ways. Malenko and Saturn had been members of the Revolution before leaving, and Guerrero a member of the Filthy Animals. Benoit had left the Revolution and feuded with them for a short time before moving on to bigger and better things.

Malenko and Guerrero had feuded in 1997, and it was a vicious feud. Benoit and Saturn had also feuded while Saturn was part of Raven's Flock, although they later won the Tag Team Title together. Benoit and Guerrero had never particularly liked each other on-camera.

So to see all four of them together was kind of strange. Yeah, I know the WWF has the right to ignore its competition's past storylines, but it was still odd... at least, at first.



“And each and every one of you, when you see me, you will not put your eyes directly on me-- you will look to the ground and you will refer to me as 'Lord Master.'”

Kevin Nash, January 17, 2000

Two-Time, Two-Time Randomly Selected Weiner of the Day, 5/27/02 and 7/3/02

deadbeater
Morcilla








Since: 12.2.02
From: Parts unknown

Since last post: 7806 days
Last activity: 7806 days
#39 Posted on
It wasn't just Russo being ousted, it was also Benoit's romantic rival Kevin Sullivan taking over the booking. Sullivan can do great storylines, but he favors plodding wrestlers over godly wrestlers like Benoit and Malenko. Also there are still unresolved issues with Nancy, Kevin's ex, now being Benoit's wife (which to his credit Sullivan did book an angle that symbolized the breakup of his marriage and Nancy going with Benoit at the end).

(edited by deadbeater on 25.7.02 1911)


"Business has just picked up" says JR. Then right on cue, Molly enters the arena! Never was JR any better in introducing someone. --Raw 7/15
JHCA13
Cotechino








Since: 25.7.02
From: Carbondale,PA,USA

Since last post: 6803 days
Last activity: 6616 days
#40 Posted on
I agree that the most likely WCW event wil be Souled Out 2000. While WCW was dead long before without much of a chance for redemption. Starrcade '97 was bad but WCW could have rebounded. Starrcade '98 and the Nash-Hogan episode was evn worse but it was still kinda possible for WCW to make it. Souled Out was the point of NO return. I was suprised WCW survived as long as it did after that.The whole Chris Benoit Title Win was too little too late. On a side note...If WCW didnt take from 12/97-11/99 to give Bret Hart the Belt or even give him a shot that might have also helped.
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Not but a scant few PPV's back. I believe it was Judgment Day but god only knows what with the name switching of Pay per views recently.
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