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24.10.14 0716
The W - Pro Wrestling - Cruiserweights. Do you take 'em seriously?
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RawLo
Salami








Since: 9.7.02
From: San Diego, CA

Since last post: 3706 days
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#1 Posted on
I love the cruiserweight matches- they are easily some of the most exciting matches on TV. The fact that they are pretty much in their own seperate division is understandable, but I'd still like to see some of them pushed up into fueds with higher level talent. The question is- can a cruiserweight wrestler's style mesh well with that of someone like a Bradshaw or Triple H...?
Or is the size difference too much to ignore...?
I'd hate to think that once a guy has been labeled as a cruiserweight- that's all he's ever going to fued with. You can only fued with the same guys so many times, you know?
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Scar
Goetta








Since: 2.1.02
From: NS, Canada

Since last post: 1493 days
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#2 Posted on
Jericho used to be the Cruiserweight champ.



I finally found a job!
Freeway
Scrapple








Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

Since last post: 306 days
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#3 Posted on
Cruiserweight vs. Heavyweight Matches operate under a David vs. Goliath dynamic. The Heavyweight guy is bigger and stronger than the cruiserweight, so they have to rely on speed and agility and quick attacks to wear down the heavyweights. Jericho used to use that strategy against his opponents, as does Rey Jr and Tajiri.

In short: I buy the Cruiserweights, because they rock and impress the shit out of me with their death-defying moves.



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DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

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#4 Posted on
I like the idea of them being in their own seperate world. But I don't think it would work well without the split--getting rid of one of two of them would pretty much ruin whatever division is currently there. Plus, keeping them on one show only gives viewers a reason to tune in to Smackdown, because we now need good reasons to tune into either show.

Call me crazy, but an entire fed of nothing but women and crusierweights would kick all sorts of ass.

DMC



"And win, lose, or draw, trust me. I'm gonna respect myself in the morning, and you're gonna respect me." -Arn Anderson
ThreepMe
Morcilla








Since: 15.2.02
From: Dallas

Since last post: 3702 days
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#5 Posted on
I don't think it's a size difference that makes the difference.

It's the Style difference. Lucha/Japan style is just too different than traditional American style.

It's like playing with Lego and Duplo. Yeah, technically they worked, but it never looked good.

But Cruiser style rocks on all fronts!

Rey just may save WWE.



I would like to congatulate Al Snow on his contact with La-Z-Boy. Because we all know Al doesn't sell chairs. - Mick Foley
El Nastio
Andouille








Since: 14.1.02
From: Ottawa Ontario, by way of Walkerton

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.33
A cruiserweight like Jamie Noble vs The Big Show, I would take seriously IF it were Wrestling and not Sports Entertainment. Noble could easily disect a particular part of the body on Show, move around and not gethit, and lock on a submission sooner or later.


In Sports Entertainment though, I don't know, since they play up crusierweights to be "exciting" but not on the same level as the heavyweights.



Montreal Expos, 2002, October, The Fall Classic.

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mountinman44
Sujuk








Since: 8.5.02
From: San Diego, CA

Since last post: 1252 days
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#7 Posted on
I'm a big fan of the Cruisers. If they can manage not to turn their matches into spotfests, I think casual fans would take them more seriously. The Jamie Noble/Tajiri/Hurricane storyline proves it can be done.
Although, I have to admit one of my favorite Cruiser moments came when Kevin Nash tossed Rey Mysterio like a lawn dart into the side of a truck. that's great TV my friends!



"Young lady, in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" - Homer Simpson
RawLo
Salami








Since: 9.7.02
From: San Diego, CA

Since last post: 3706 days
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#8 Posted on
guys like Eddie Guererro, Benoit, and Jericho are all small enough to be considered "cruiserweights", yet they are not! They're not labelled as such, but they are't much bigger than the other cruiserweight. Because of their size, they can wrestle a smaller, faster style when needed. (Those guys are some of my favorite wrestlers, by the way.)
If you're labelled as a cruiserweight, is it impossible to get into bigger things- like an IC title hunt? What does it take to stand out?
insideSOLUTION
Chorizo








Since: 3.1.02
From: toronto, ontario, canada

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#9 Posted on

    Originally posted by RawLo
    guys like Eddie Guererro, Benoit, and Jericho are all small enough to be considered "cruiserweights", yet they are not! They're not labelled as such, but they are't much bigger than the other cruiserweight. Because of their size, they can wrestle a smaller, faster style when needed. (Those guys are some of my favorite wrestlers, by the way.)
    If you're labelled as a cruiserweight, is it impossible to get into bigger things- like an IC title hunt? What does it take to stand out?



back in 1997 in wcw, (yeah, back to them), while jericho and guerrero were fueding for the cruiserweight title, alex wright and ultimo dragon (two more cruisers) were feuding for the tv title. as well, syxx, chris benoit, eddie guerrero, malenko, jericho, and dragon all had matches or runs with the united states title.

now: jericho, guerrero and benoit are all legit heavyweights. syxx is still a little zit on the face of the wwe, but we can let that go.

*jer.
MollyFan2K2
Blutwurst








Since: 26.6.02
From: Ware, MA

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#10 Posted on

    Originally posted by DMC
    Call me crazy, but an entire fed of nothing but women and crusierweights would kick all sorts of ass.

    DMC



Hell yeah!!

That would be a fed that I would pay ten dollars for PPV shows every week.
insideSOLUTION
Chorizo








Since: 3.1.02
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#11 Posted on

    Originally posted by MollyFan2K2

      Originally posted by DMC
      Call me crazy, but an entire fed of nothing but women and crusierweights would kick all sorts of ass.

      DMC



    Hell yeah!!

    That would be a fed that I would pay ten dollars for PPV shows every week.



i have one of those... well, in my own fantasy world. it's called extreme wrestling revenge =) ha... ha.

the ecwa runs an annual light-heavyweight tournament (the super 8), along with a few other light-heavy matches on the show. maybe it's worth checking out, if you dig that stuff. noble and aj styles were there in 2002, the hardyz, chris daniels and devon storm were there in 1999, american dragon, lowki, and a few of shawn michaels' twa graduates were there last year. good stuff.

*jer.
m2k_2002
Polska kielbasa








Since: 6.6.02
From: san jose

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#12 Posted on
I love the cruiser they are are great. I think some cruiserweight wrestlers can get into bigger angles like Rey Mysterio Jr. Although some other wrestlers like Kidman and Tajiri I think will stay in the cruiser division and not go any farther than that.
drjayphd
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 22.4.02
From: Long Island

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Y!:
#13 Posted on

    Originally posted by MollyFan2K2

      Originally posted by DMC
      Call me crazy, but an entire fed of nothing but women and crusierweights would kick all sorts of ass.

      DMC



    Hell yeah!!

    That would be a fed that I would pay ten dollars for PPV shows every week.



Heh... I was actually dreaming up a fed of just cruisers, either for reality or fantasy. Partially, of course, because if I was in wrestling, I'd have to be a cruiser (5'9", still under the weight limit despite being a bloated sack of protoplasm). I even had a nifty name: United Cruiserwight Pro Wrestling. I obviously have way too much time on my hands.
deadbeater
Morcilla








Since: 12.2.02
From: Parts unknown

Since last post: 4372 days
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#14 Posted on
In The Princess Bride Andre the Giant jobbed to Cary Elwes, and made that credible (saying, in character as Fezzik, he was used to fighting against multiple people, as opposed to one on one).

Alas, pro wrestling for the most part is not nearly as well written. So unless the cruiser is Jeff Hardy, he will almost always be squashed by the bigger plodding dude.







"Business has just picked up" says JR. Then right on cue, Molly enters the arena! Never was JR any better in introducing someone. --Raw 7/15
drjayphd
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 22.4.02
From: Long Island

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#15 Posted on

    Originally posted by deadbeater
    In The Princess Bride Andre the Giant jobbed to Cary Elwes, and made that credible (saying, in character as Fezzik, he was used to fighting against multiple people, as opposed to one on one).



Sadly, if that was booked as an angle in wrestling, people here would piss and moan that the big man was ruining the cruiserweight division. Never mind that it's actually a pretty good story on its own merits.
bigwavedave
Blutwurst








Since: 3.1.02
From: morro bay ca

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#16 Posted on
I consider cruiserweights to be generally all round better wrestlers because the really good ones can both fly and wrestle on the mat. Tajiri and X-crap bring in the added martial arts backgrounds. Kidman is at the top end of the CW's in size but to me doesn't have the mat skills of Chavo or Hurricane. I really like Shannon Moore because even though he is the littlest giant (obscure Ren and Stimpy reference) he tries hard and is really good. he only lacks the size and strength to hold up with anyone over 225. I'm not really sold on Jamie yet but am willing to give him time. I'd say Molly and Ivory could legitimately be CW champions, and maybe Trish if someone sold for her.I like Lita but she would probably blow up or get knocked out against someone like Tajiri. I am looking forward to seeing ReyRey and think that some dead weight like Albert and Bradshaw should be let go to make room for Juvie and Ultimo Guerrero, and DAMMIT bring back Essa Rios.



"My parents said I could be anything, so I became an ASSHOLE!"
VK Wallstreet
Goetta








Since: 18.6.02
From: New York, NY, USA

Since last post: 4339 days
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#17 Posted on
Boy oh boy, I'm sure I'm in the serious, serious minority, but I don't like cruisers and the lucha style, and I never did. It has nothing to do with the weight and everything to do with the style. My suspension of disbelief, which is SO important in wrestling, just goes completely out the window during the matches. When I see somebody flip out of the ring and take out four guys on the floor by brushing one of their shoulders with his knee, that's ridiculous. When I see somebody pull off a spectacular move and his opponent get up, fresh as a daisy, two seconds later, I just can't stand it. And if you played a drinking game with that event as a cue, you wouldn't make it too far.

When Mysterio was throwing out hurricanrana's like they were clotheslines, I couldn't stand that. Why so little impact for such a good-looking move? If it's going to have that little effect, why do it in the first place?

And speaking of those spectacular moves -- the whole concept behind them is silly. I think moves with flips and flair work as finishers and such because presumably, the wrestler performing them is showing off a little. Or sometimes it has impact you can't imagine otherwise, like Lesnar's F5. But why is a moonsault in the middle of the match better than a frog splash? A frog splash would ostensibly hurt more and be easier to do to boot. It just doesn't make sense.

Things are impressive in moderation. I can't even recall the last time something blew me away in a cruiserweight match. It's pretty cool to watch fireworks, but if you watch them every single day, they're going to get pretty fucking old.

I haven't even mentioned the zero character and angle development historically afforded to the cruisers. I can't even fathom how WCW made this mistake back in the day. They'd throw out the Villanos vs. La Parka and Juventud or something and would make absolutely no attempt to explain why I should care. (That was a big problem with WCW in general, to be fair.) I don't just watch wrestling for the wrestling.

So I don't like 'em. Sue me. That's why most here would disagree, but I think WWE's current cruiserweight division is pretty good precisely for the reasons most would hate it. They generally wrestle a heavyweight style. They have characters. But I wonder why it exists, you know? Listen, look at Eddie Guerrero. The guy is like 5'3" and you buy him against heavyweights, sort of. Why wouldn't you buy Jamie Noble against them, too? I think it's a ghetto of sorts.



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ThreepMe
Morcilla








Since: 15.2.02
From: Dallas

Since last post: 3702 days
Last activity: 3361 days
#18 Posted on

    Originally posted by VK Wallstreet
    Listen, look at Eddie Guerrero. The guy is like 5'3" and you buy him against heavyweights, sort of. Why wouldn't you buy Jamie Noble against them, too? I think it's a ghetto of sorts.


The thing aboot Eddie, Jericho, Benoit and what not, is not so much their height, it's their build.

Put Benoit next to Jamie Noble. Even though there is not much height difference, there is definately a bulk difference.

Now put Benoit next to someone like The Rock. Granted, Benoit is shorter, but he looks "bulkier" than most.

Now put Noble next to The Rock. Noble is completely dwarfed.

And as I respect your opinion of the Cruiserweight/Luche/Japan style, just remember, it's a style.

Pro Wrestling, in and of itself, is pre-determined and the moves are done in a fashion to minimize damage to the participants. Some would say it's fake. Granted, we all know that the impacts are real and the blood, sweat and tears are real.

But if you want to talk believe-ability, just remember this: If you were in a real fight and you got a regular snap suplex, you'd probably be crippled.

So we have this thing called "suspension of disbelief." Well, if we are suspending our beliefs, why no take it to the logical extreme? If we not really trying to kill eachother, and are putting on a show, why not liven it up a little? Instead of punch, punch, punch, rest hold, suplex, spear, punch, punch, stomp, irish whip, clothesline, finishing move...Let's do something that will wow the audience! How aboot punch, irish whip, moonsault, tope, suicide dive, 5 different roll ups, back brain kick, hurricanrana, punch, whip, springboard tornado DDT, etc...?

I think the main difference it cruiser vs. heavyweight is: in a Heavyweight match you're more likely to say "That was a sick hit/bump/etc." With a cruiser match you're more likely to say "How did he do that?"




I would like to congatulate Al Snow on his contact with La-Z-Boy. Because we all know Al doesn't sell chairs. - Mick Foley
WyldeWolf1
Boerewors








Since: 20.6.02
From: Florida

Since last post: 4432 days
Last activity: 4432 days
#19 Posted on
I'm going to have to go with VK Wallstreet on this one. The lucha style just doesn't look credible in the slightest. I watch them and think "I could just blast that guy with an elbow to the temple or a knee to the sternum, not to mention the fact that I could lift most of them over my head and throw them to the floor, and he obviously can't do anything but tap me with his shoulder as he flies through the air." I watch Taker or HHH or Lesnar or Angle and think "I'd have to watch my step around this guy."

As for Jericho, Eddie, and Benoit--they only look small on your TV next to a guy like Taker. They're actually anywhere from 5'11" to 6'2" (which is about Austin and HBK height), and they're built. If you saw them walking on the street, you wouldn't think they were small--average in height maybe, but not small.

Rey Mysterio on the other hand...no chance with a true heavyweight. And if the stories were written well, the Cruiserweight title would be portrayed like boxing's lighter weight class titles. It should be the top of the mountain, just in a different division.

BTW, in an old UFC tourney, you can see Dan "The Beast" Severn pull a release German suplex on a guy...just to show off apparently.



WyldeWolf1
The Man of 1,007 holds, making him 3 holds better than Chris Jericho!
RawLo
Salami








Since: 9.7.02
From: San Diego, CA

Since last post: 3706 days
Last activity: 2951 days
#20 Posted on
I think that the lucha style can be credible if done in a way that isn't "spot to spot" as MountinMan alluded to... but the cruiserweight matches I've seen recently weren't really all lucha-styled. They incorporate technical mat wrestling (like Jamie Knoble working the leg to set up the Trailer-Hitch) and power-type moves. (I know a powerbomb done by Jamie Knoble isn't as impressive as one done by Bubba Ray Dudley- but it still looks cool!)

I have no problem with a seperate division for the cruiseweights, but I'd like to see some of them get into fueds with non-cruisers. At least let them have a good showing against a bigger guy every now and then- even if they lose the match.
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