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The W - Current Events & Politics - Congressman resigns over lewd e-mails to underage boy (Page 2)
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DJ FrostyFreeze
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Since: 2.1.02
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.68

DISCLAIMER: I am a democrat and I hate George Bush.

That being said, I'm a little lost here and I hope my next question doesnt come off as too dumb. But why would one senator's dumbass screw-up (and a possible cover-up by another senator's office) have any ill effects on the rest of their party's midterm elections? Unless you are directly linked to the initial dumbass screwup or the possible cover-up, what do you have to worry about? I dont get it.



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Since: 25.7.02
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.01
Probably a "guilt by association" thing, although I don't think a huge group of voters are suddenly going to think GOP stands for Group Of Pedos.



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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.03
You wanted the best, you got... Out of Context Quote of the Week.

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    Originally posted by DJ FrostyFreeze
    DISCLAIMER: I am a democrat and I hate George Bush.

    That being said, I'm a little lost here and I hope my next question doesnt come off as too dumb. But why would one senator's dumbass screw-up (and a possible cover-up by another senator's office) have any ill effects on the rest of their party's midterm elections? Unless you are directly linked to the initial dumbass screwup or the possible cover-up, what do you have to worry about? I dont get it.


If higher-ranking Republicans knew and didn't do anything (or enough) about it, there's ammo for the Democrats.

spf: That's EXACTLY what Foley's trying to do, blame it on being gay. Not being into underage boys, not having a total lack of self-control, but that he likes the mansex. -_-





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Since: 2.1.02

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
Here (startribune.com) is a timeline of events as it pertains to Foley.


    Important dates involving the messages that ex-Rep. Mark Foley, R-Fla., reportedly sent to then-current or former House pages.
    2003: Foley, a Florida Republican, reportedly writes sexually explicit instant messages to a male House page.

    May 2003: Foley faces questions about his sexual orientation as he prepares to run for a Senate seat in Florida. He later drops out of the race.

    Before January 2004: Foley's chief of staff, Kirk Fordham, has conversations with senior aides in House Speaker Dennis Hastert's office "asking them to intervene" to address Foley's inappropriate behavior toward pages, according to Fordham.

    January 2004: Fordham leaves Foley's office.

    Fall 2005: A former page contacts the office of his sponsor, Rep. Rodney Alexander, R-La., about e-mails he had received from Foley that asked about the boy's age, then 16, and his birthday. Foley in one e-mail also requested a photo of the page.

    Alexander's chief of staff calls House Speaker Dennis Hastert's office about the e-mail exchange. Alexander's aide declines to show the message to Hastert's staff and to the clerk of the House, who administers the page program, but says it is not of a sexual nature and that the family simply wants the contact to stop. Hastert said last week he was not aware of "a different set of communications which were sexually explicit ... which Mr. Foley reportedly sent another former page or pages."

    The clerk and Rep. John Shimkus, R-Ill., meet with Foley, who assures them he was only acting as a mentor to the boy. Shimkus, who chairs a House board that oversees the page program, orders Foley to cease contact with the boy and Foley agrees.

    Fordham, Foley's former chief of staff, begins serving in the same capacity for Rep. Tom Reynolds, R-N.Y., chairman of the House Republican Campaign Committee.

    November 2005: The St. Petersburg Times says it assigned two reporters to investigate after being given copies of the e-mail exchange with the Louisiana teenager. The paper said Saturday it decided not to publish at the time because of the seriousness of what would be implied and because the boy and the family would not go on the record. The Miami Herald says it, too, had a copy of the e-mail but decided not to go public because the message was not sexually explicit and was subject to interpretation.

    Spring 2006: Alexander mentions the Foley situation to House Majority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio. Alexander says Boehner refers him to Reynolds. Both Boehner and Reynolds say they talk with Hastert about it. Boehner quotes Hastert as telling him the Louisiana page's complaint "had been taken care of." Hastert says later he doesn't recall the meeting with Boehner and the speaker's staff says he did not learn of it until much later.

    July 2006: Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, a liberal leaning watchdog group, obtains copies of Foley's e-mails and gives them to the FBI. The FBI says later the initial group of e-mails did not rise to the level of a federal offense.

    Sept. 28: ABC News reports on the e-mail exchange with the Louisiana teenager. Foley's Democratic challenger, Tim Mahoney, calls for an investigation into the exchange.

    Sept. 29: Revelations emerge of sexually explicit instant messages Foley sent in 2003 to former pages. Foley resigns. The House votes to refer the matter to the ethics committee.

    Sept. 30: Hastert says he is setting up a hot line for current and former pages and their families to report problems about the page program.

    Oct. 1: Hastert writes a letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales asking for an investigation of Foley's conduct. Hastert writes a similar letter to Florida Gov. Jeb Bush. An FBI spokesman confirms the agency is "conducting an assessment to see if there's been a violation of federal law."

    Oct. 2: Foley's attorney, David Roth, says the former congressman is battling alcoholism and has checked into a rehabilitation facility.

    Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington asks the Justice Department to investigate why the Foley e-mails they gave the FBI were not pursued.

    Oct. 3: The Washington Times calls in an editorial for Hastert to resign as speaker. Hastert says he won't resign. President Bush says he supports Hastert's call for an investigation and says he was "shocked and dismayed" at Foley's behavior. Boehner talks about conferring with Hastert in the spring about Foley.

    Roth says at a news conference in West Palm Beach, Fla., that Foley was molested as a child by a member of the clergy but had never had sexual contact with a minor. He says Foley asked him to reveal publicly that Foley is gay.

    Oct. 4: Fordham announces he is resigning as Reynolds' chief of staff and tells The Associated Press he had conversations with House leadership about Foley's behavior prior to January 2004.

    The Justice Department orders the House to preserve Foley's official computer files. A law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the ongoing investigation says that FBI agents are interviewing participants in the House page program.

    The Florida Department of Law Enforcement confirms that it has begun its own preliminary inquiry into Foley's e-mail contacts with House pages.

    Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., calls for a group of former senators and others to investigate how the House handled the Foley matter.


I bolded one graf in there that is particularly interesting to me. Two highly reputable newspapers, the St. Petersburg Times and the Miami Herald, knew of this story and made editorial decisions not to run with the stories. Their reasons amounts to "We didn't want to out a government official" and "We didn't think what he was doing was wrong," and that worries me. This isn't the first time something like this has happened - the Clinton/Lewinsky affair was supposedly uncovered, and subsequently tossed aside, by Newsweek before Matt Drudge got wind of their knowledge and turned it into his own "scoop." So how many other stories like this are out there that the media is deciding we don't need to know about?
DrDirt
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Since: 8.10.03
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.33
    Originally posted by DJ FrostyFreeze
    DISCLAIMER: I am a democrat and I hate George Bush.

    That being said, I'm a little lost here and I hope my next question doesnt come off as too dumb. But why would one senator's dumbass screw-up (and a possible cover-up by another senator's office) have any ill effects on the rest of their party's midterm elections? Unless you are directly linked to the initial dumbass screwup or the possible cover-up, what do you have to worry about? I dont get it.


1. The Republican Party is the party of "morality and ethics", whatever that means in Washington. The Christian base isn't very forgiving.

2. As stated earlier, the apparent cover up or lack of action. Remember that Watergate didn't do in Nixon, it was what he and his people did afterward.

3. And as stated previously, the Dems really don't have to do anything as this even has legs in their own party.



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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.26
One of our DFL'ers already has an issue ad (pattywetterling.com) on the air. I'll leave it to you to determine how a Rep in Florida has anything to do with a Minnesota race, but geez - you don't think the Democrats are going to do their damnedest to overplay their hand one more time...would they? ;-)



CRZ
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Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.33
    Originally posted by CRZ
    One of our DFL'ers already has an issue ad (pattywetterling.com) on the air. I'll leave it to you to determine how a Rep in Florida has anything to do with a Minnesota race, but geez - you don't think the Democrats are going to do their damnedest to overplay their hand one more time...would they? ;-)


Unfortunately, you are correct. The best way to play it is let it take its course and have the voters draw their own conclusions. Dean and company could have this backfire if not careful.



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spf
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Since: 2.1.02
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.57
    Originally posted by CRZ
    One of our DFL'ers already has an issue ad (pattywetterling.com) on the air. I'll leave it to you to determine how a Rep in Florida has anything to do with a Minnesota race, but geez - you don't think the Democrats are going to do their damnedest to overplay their hand one more time...would they? ;-)

I could say that it does tie into the fact that this is the party leadership that will be supported by prospective GOP candidates. But we both know that would be disingenuous of me.

Bad form on their part. This story doesn't need the Dems to do any more than very subtly goose it from time to time. But, perhaps the same strategy the GOP used in 2004 of take a basically local issue (gay marriage in individual states), conflate it into a national issue, and make it relevant in all races is what the Dems are hoping for. It sure seemed to work for them in 2004, so perhaps the idea of trying to paint all GOP'ers as enablers of pedophiles will work. It could work by basically painting the GOP into having to spend all their time from now until Nov. talking about this and Iraq. It seems like a very high-risk approach to me, but then subtlety hasn't been the order of the day in politics in quite a while.



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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.05
    Originally posted by CRZ
    One of our DFL'ers already has an issue ad (pattywetterling.com) on the air. I'll leave it to you to determine how a Rep in Florida has anything to do with a Minnesota race, but geez - you don't think the Democrats are going to do their damnedest to overplay their hand one more time...would they? ;-)


How is this overplaying a hand? It ties right into the 'Republican culture of corruption' theme that the Democrats have been using since Katrina. Frankly, I think the Democrats need to do more stuff like this. A big reason the Repubs came to power is because they took every small thing and conflated it to describe the entire Democratic party. In this case, when it's an actual serious offense and it appears as though the coverup went as high as Hastert himself, then the Dems should dine out on this until election day.



Scene: Mark DeRosa's brain. The year is 2005.
Part of Mark DeRosa's brain: Come on, another position change? One day it's second base, the next day right field, now it's third? Why, I oughta go into Buck's office and throw his talking fish on the floor!
Other part of Mark DeRosa's brain: Hold on, other part of the brain. We're making $500,000 this year. Last year we made $725,000. All for playing a damn kids' game. This is, as they say in Brainland, a no-"us"-er. We're not going to complain.
Part of Mark DeRosa's brain: You're right, dude. Let's go back to looking at this crazy porn Teixeira gave us!

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CRZ
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.26
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    How is this overplaying a hand? It ties right into the 'Republican culture of corruption' theme that the Democrats have been using since Katrina.
You probably didn't notice, but that theme didn't stick and they haven't used it for months.

    Frankly, I think the Democrats need to do more stuff like this.
Yes, all politicians should lie. All the time.

    A big reason the Repubs came to power is because they took every small thing and conflated it to describe the entire Democratic party.
Let's agree to disagree.

    In this case, when it's an actual serious offense and it appears as though the coverup went as high as Hastert himself, then the Dems should dine out on this until election day.
It appears as though we don't know enough about this story despite all the definitive declarations of "fact" by people who know nothing (including the people who decided to include gross exaggerations in the ad) - but hey, at least it's bringing out the worst in the media.

Local reaction to Wetterling's ad:
http://www.startribune.com/587/story/724858.html
http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_278145456.html
http://www.startribune.com/587/story/724872.html

I would suggest that if you had to see this ad every half hour you were watching TV, you'd quickly get tired of it, too.



CRZ
spf
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.57
    Originally posted by CRZ
    I would suggest that if you had to see this ad every half hour you were watching TV, you'd quickly get tired of it, too.

Isn't that true of any political ad since maybe the Jesse Ventura for Governor campaign?



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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.26
    Originally posted by spf
      Originally posted by CRZ
      I would suggest that if you had to see this ad every half hour you were watching TV, you'd quickly get tired of it, too.

    Isn't that true of any political ad since maybe the Jesse Ventura for Governor campaign?
I cannot dispute that, but some ads are worse than others.

Speaking of Jesse, the ads featuring him in support of our IP candidate hit TV yesterday - check it out (youtube.com)



CRZ
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.55
Ben Stein has chimed in on this subject, saying it's Democratic hypocrisy. But then it just gets bad, as he says this is proof of a link between homosexuality and pedophilia.


    We have a Republican man in Congress who sent e-mails to teenage boys asking them what they were wearing, and an entire party, the Democrats, whose primary constituency, besides the teachers' unions, is homosexual men and lesbian women. I hope it won't come as a surprise to anyone that a big part of male homosexual behavior is interest in young boys. (Take a look at anyone renting Endless Summer next time you are at the video store.)


For shame, Ben Stein, for perpetuating a lie like this.



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CEOIII
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Since: 25.7.02
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.69
Ben Stein is still alive? And worse yet, he actually thinks people give 1/10th of one shit about his opinon?



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Since: 24.3.02
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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
The Democratic party is made up of teachers unions and homosexuals? Which group are African Americans in (88% of which voted for Kerry in 2004)?

I liked Ben Stein's game show, but what a dumb statement to make.
CRZ
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.26
You're sure reading a lot into one paragraph taken out of context - and to help you out, the context is the overarching theme of hypocrisy by the Democrats...at least, as he [Stein] sees it. The joke about Endless Summer should also be a tipoff.

There are plenty inside the beltway and out who champion Ben Stein's ability to write and argue his points in an articulate and intelligent manner. There are plenty of people who still believe he's a decent spokesperson for their movement, and his own previous political experience contributes to an overall sense of gravitas - me, I think he's more credible than Ron Silver but less credible than The Beltway Boys. Going after the Democrats is "easy" but I don't think they deserve it - the REAL culprits in this one are the media. (I think I've probably said this already, so sorry for repeating myself.)

The bottom line is this piece of Stein's is the quintessential kind of "red meat" article that energizes the base, yet also whips up a frenzy amongst people who would rather try to distill an article into a soundbite (and get it wrong) as well as those people who play "telephone" by only reading the soundbite instead of the entire article. I'm sure Stein knows all too well that you're going to catch some flak writing smart for an audience of dumb people.



CRZ
skorpio17
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Since: 11.7.02
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.41
    Originally posted by It's False
    br>
    But at least they aren't like Matt Drudge, who had the absolute gall to BLAME THE KIDS THEMSELVES for this whole thing!

    (edited by It's False on 3.10.06 1246)


Obviously Mark Foley is a hardcore sick bastard who deserves to be punished. But, I'd also blame the "kids." The internet doesn't just show up in your home and attack you with porn sites. It takes two people to have a "homoerotic" 30 minute conversation. And no 16 year old boy is that stupid to be sucked into it against his will. Much like the 16yr old boy who was "raped" by his hot female teacher, I don't believe there are any victims here.
AWArulz
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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.60
    Originally posted by skorpio17
    But, I'd also blame the "kids." The internet doesn't just show up in your home and attack you with porn sites. It takes two people to have a "homoerotic" 30 minute conversation. And no 16 year old boy is that stupid to be sucked into it against his will.


Well, I disagree here. The 16 year old who received the emails was well monitored enough by his parents to cath it and report it (and ask that it be kept quiet). The former pages who got the IMs were all (I think) 18 or older. So, a tad sick, but probably not a crime.

So, all you adult men, especially those older than 30. Tell me you have never noticed a hot 18 year old. I know I have and I have a daughter that age. Would I email/im in a naughty manner with one? No, but I am married and I think my lower limit if I wasn't is about 30 or so.



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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.80
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    So, all you adult men, especially those older than 30. Tell me you have never noticed a hot 18 year old. I know I have and I have a daughter that age. Would I email/im in a naughty manner with one? No, but I am married and I think my lower limit if I wasn't is about 30 or so.


I work on a university campus, and on a daily basis advise 18-22 year olds. Many of the women (or girls) I work with would be considered very attractive by almost anyone's standards. Even when I was not in a relationship, I was always EXTREMELY careful (almost too careful, frankly) to make sure that nothing I did could be misinterpreted. And I'm not one who most people would consider the epitome of self-restraint - but this is not a situation in which moral ambiguity is a good idea.

And with rare exception, the maturity level between 18 and 30+ is fairly clear. I don't mean that in a demeaning way - it's just how it is.

Foley's lapse in judgment here is not a minor (no pun intended) deal. And the fact that it's not an isolated incident is pretty disturbing. There is a massive chasm between finding someone attractive and engaging in inappropriate behavior. Huge.

Worse yet is that he presented himself as someone who would condemn the very behavior he was engaged, which shows that he knew what he was doing is wrong - and yet, that didn't seem to stop him from doing it.





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Since: 28.1.02
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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.60
    Originally posted by Leroy
    Foley's lapse in judgment here is not a minor (no pun intended) deal. And the fact that it's not an isolated incident is pretty disturbing. There is a massive chasm between finding someone attractive and engaging in inappropriate behavior. Huge.

    Worse yet is that he presented himself as someone who would condemn the very behavior he was engaged, which shows that he knew what he was doing is wrong - and yet, that didn't seem to stop him from doing it.




Absolutely true. I question, however, whether the emails I have seen the text of are crimes (he wrote those to a boy of 16 ). I think the IMs could be actionable, but it seems he wrote those to 18 yr olds.

That's my point. Is it hugely inappropriate? Yes. Stupid? Sick? All yeah. Actionable? No.



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You're taking it out of context: my comment had more to do with the time of year than with interpersonal conduct.
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