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19.9.14 0101
The W - Pro Wrestling - Clean vs. Not clean WWE/World Title changes
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flairforthegold13
Kishke








Since: 1.5.03
From: Gainesville, FL.

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.28
Okay, this is a spin-off from the Michaels thread. I'm like 98 percent sure I remember all this correctly (or remember it being reported correctly as far as the stuff that happened before '86 *when I started watching.* Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the bigger thing is:
How important is it to the legitimacy of a new champion that he wins the match clean when he wins the belts...esp in 1 on 1 matches? Do you think less of a champion if he doesn't win clean, 1-2-3 in the middle of the ring?

WWWF/WWF/WWE Title
Sammartino over Rogers (clean)
Ivan Koloof over Sammartino (clean)
Morales over Koloof (clean)
Stasiak over Morales (clean)
Sammartino over Stasiak (clean)
Graham over Sammartino (not clean, feet on ropes)
Backlund over Graham (not clean, Graham’s foot was on the ropes)
Inoki over Backlund (clean)
Backlund over Inoki (clean)
Sheik over Backlund (technically clean, the towel being thrown in is legal)
Hogan over Sheik (clean)
Andre over Hogan (not clean, ref-switch, fast count)
Savage over Dibease (not clean, Hogan)
Hogan over Savage (clean)
Warrior over Hogan (clean)
Slaughter over Warrior (not clean, Savage-ference)
Hogan over Sarge (clean)
Taker over Hogan (not clean, Flair run in)
Hogan over Taker (not clean, ashes)
Flair wins Rumble (not clean due to Hogan's help)
Savage over Flair (not clean, tights)
Flair over Savage (not clean, Ramon-ference)
Hart over Flair (clean)
Yoko over Hart (not clean, salt)
Hogan over Yoko (not clean, salt)
Yoko over Hogan (not clean, fireball)
Hart over Yoko (clean-ish, though Piper did kinda jostle the ropes)
Backlund over Hart (clean, towel throw was valid)
Diesle over Bob (clean)
Hart over Diesle (clean)
Michaels over Hart (technically clean, though the OT thing was bs)
Sid over HBK ( not clean, camera to the chest)
HBK over Sid (not clean, camera to the chest)
Hart in the Four-Way, (clean as it goes, though that match was chaotic)
Sid over Hart (not clean, Austin run-in)
Taker over Sid (clean-ish, Hart distraction)
Hart over Taker (not clean, chair)
Michaels over Hart (not clean obviously, Montreal)
Austin over Michaels (clean, though Tyson’s count was fast)
Kane over Austin (not clean, Taker run-in)
Austin over Kane (clean)
Rock over Mankind (not clean, Survivor Series screw-job spoof)
Mankind over Rock (not clean, Austin)
Rock over Mankind (not clean, I Quit match, piped in voice quitting)
Mankind over Rock (clean, Super-Bowl show)
Rock over Mankind (not clean, Big Show-ference)
Austin over Rock (clean)
Taker over Austin (not clean, I recall Taker had the tights—Over the Edge ’99)
Austin over Taker (clean)
Mankind over Austin (clean)
HHH over Mankind (not clean, as I recall. I believe HHH used a chair, right?)
VKM over HHH (not clean, Austin)
HHH wins six-way (n/a basically, to many people in the match, it was a clusterfuck regardless)
Big Show over HHH (clean)
HHH over Big Show (clean-ish, kicked him in the nuts)
Rock over HHH (clean)
HHH over Rock (not clean, iron-man, Taker)
Rock over HHH in that six way cluster-fuck (not clean, pinned Vince)
Angle over Rock (not clean, Rikishi)
Rock over Angle (clean)
Austin over Rock (not clean, chair beat down)
Angle over Austin (clean)
Austin over Angle (not clean, Regal)
Jericho over Austin (not clean, NWO)
HHH over Jericho (clean)
Hogan over HHH (not clean, Taker)
Taker over Hogan (not clean, Vince)
Rock over Taker (clean)
Brock over Rock (clean)
Big Show over Brock (not clean, Heyman, chair)
Angle over Show (not clean, Brock)
Brock over Angle (clean)
Angle over Brock (clean)
Brock over Angle (clean)
Guerrero over Brock (not clean, Goldberg)
JBL over Guerrero (clean win in the bullrope)
Cena over JBL (clean)


For the non-linear belt

Michaels over HHH (clean)
HHH over Michaels (clean)
Goldberg over HHH (clean)
HHH over Goldberg (not clean)
Benoit over HHH (clean)
Orton over Benoit (clean)
HHH over Orton (not clean)
HHH wins in the chamber (not really clean, Batista helped)
Batista over HHH (clean)


(edited by flairforthegold13 on 13.4.05 1232)
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SchippeWreck
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Since: 26.3.03
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.53
    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    Mankind over Rock (clean, Super-Bowl show)

I'd say clean-ish. He pinned Rock with a forklift, but it was a no-DQ match. So this raises the question...is it possible to have a "clean" win in a match where you're encouraged to fight dirty?

(edited by SchippeWreck on 13.4.05 1246)


anarchistxx
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Since: 13.4.05
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.86
I dislike unclean title changes, even though they are sometimes necessary with a heel.

I find they discredit the belt, and I would much rather the heel, if he is credible, to go over cleanly. I cite Brock Lesnar as a great example. The reason he was such a credible champion, was that even though he was a heel, he still defeated The Rock and Kurt Angle, 2 faces, cleanly.




IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE SO EASY
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Since: 17.3.02

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.86
I wouldn’t say Brock beat Angle clean in the Iron Man. He waffled Kurt with a chair, taking a DQ loss, but the damage allowed him to score two fast pinfalls for a 2-1 lead.

And in the case of Eddie’s win and later defense of the title, his ability to cheat creatively was part of his whole gimmick. His ability to lie, cheat, and steal the belt was expected by fans, and was just another facet of why people bought into his abiltiy to win.
mercer
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Since: 17.11.03
From: Aransas Pass TX

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.78
The super bowl one was totally unclean, Foley used salsa and guacamole as weapons! And a forklift and kegs! Is there no justice?!



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Since: 21.1.02
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.25
I agree with SchippeWreck. Can a win with a chairshot or other "nefarious" means be considered an un-clean win if the match is a no-DQ match? I'd say that constitutes a clean win as it was a win within the boundaries of the rules set up in the match.



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ryanc22
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Since: 2.3.04
From: Toronto, Ontario

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#7 Posted on
Jericho over Austin (not clean, NWO)

Wasn't it Booker T who cost Austin the undisputed title? The nWo came back into the WWE in February 2002 at No Way Out. Jericho won the undisputed title at Vengeance in December 2001



rYaNc22
hayden
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Since: 11.1.05

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    Big Show over HHH (clean)


Vince hit HHH with the title belt in that one, setting up Show's chokeslam, so not clean.

(edited by hayden on 13.4.05 2128)
The Vile1
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Since: 4.9.02
From: California

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.25
    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    Rock over HHH (clean)


I dunno, I vaguely remember Austin coming in at the Backlash main event and either whacking HHH with a chair or giving him a stunner.




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ekedolphin
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Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.52
Angle over Austin (clean)

Well, cleanish-- footage revealed that Austin had his hand on the ring apron when he tapped out to the Ankle Lock (thus breaking the plane of the ropes), which he used to justify getting a quick rematch against him.

But to answer the original question-- yeah, it makes a big difference to me that a champion win his matches cleanly. But there are dirty wins, and then there are dirty wins. There's a difference between grabbing a guy's tights, outside interference, and having seven of your boys jump the champion in a no-DQ match.

So, there's that. And it also makes a difference to me how he defends that title. So even someone who cheated to win can make up for it with a clean defense against the previous champion, and by defeating other top guys in the fed. At least in my opinion.



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flairforthegold13
Kishke








Since: 1.5.03
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.87
Okay, I clearly mis-remembered a lot of things. I apologize for that.
Clearly, very few title wins are legitimately clean.

I dunno, it really doesn't bother me. I expect heels to cheat to win titles.
I mean, the whole point is wronged face chases heel.
I think I do get bothered when a face cheats to win.
I'm still ticked that Savage used the tights on Flair.


WIth the Super Bowl match, the fork-lift was legal in the rules of the match, so I'd say clean.

In the Brock match, the chair falls weren't the deciding falls.
Clean enough for me.

Vince did interfere in that match, I had forgotten about that.

And I'm not sure about the Backlash thing, though during the '98-2002ish period there weren't many main event matches period without Austin running out and whooping some ass.
They've actually done a better job at not having World Title matches be complete clusterfucks.


I stand corrected on the Jericho change. It was Booker T, the NWO interfered in the rematch Austin had with Jericho at No Way Out.
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.46
"I'm still ticked that Savage used the tights on Flair."

Oftentimes interference is done just to assuage egos of people doing jobs, but in this case there was a reason. (Really, rather than just a list of interference - yes/no, you'd have to go on a case by case basis. But that's way too much work.) Anyway, Flair needed an out so they could keep drawing with rematches where the heel was chasing the face, as Savage had no opponents after Sid left. It didn't work, but that was the logic behind it.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 14.4.05 1737)
FurryHippie
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Since: 29.10.02
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.74
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    "I'm still ticked that Savage used the tights on Flair."

    Oftentimes interference is done just to assuage egos of people doing jobs, but in this case there was a reason. (Really, rather than just a list of interference - yes/no, you'd have to go on a case by case basis. But that's way too much work.) Anyway, Flair needed an out so they could keep drawing with rematches where the heel was chasing the face, as Savage had no opponents after Sid left. It didn't work, but that was the logic behind it.

    (edited by JustinShapiro on 14.4.05 1737)


Also, the way I saw it was that Perfect was in the ring nearly the ENTIRE match and got involved more times than I could count. It truly seemed 2 on 1 against Savage, and he has nothing to balance the side. It was ironic that, after all Flair and Perfect's chicanery, Savage won the match with....an illegal move. I think it worked in that context. He cheated MUCH less than they did, it barely evens out. Not clean, but he still looks good.
King Of Crap
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.62
    Originally posted by flairforthegold13

    Taker over Austin (not clean, I recall Taker had the tights—Over the Edge ’99)


Shane also fast-counted.



    HHH over Mankind (not clean, as I recall. I believe HHH used a chair, right?)


I remember him needing dubious Shane refereeing and the trusty sledge.


    Hogan over HHH (not clean, Taker)


Jericho also interfered a lot.


    HHH over Goldberg (not clean)


HHH stole Kane's pin in a Triple Threat. You could count that as clean.



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Since: 5.7.03

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.67
    Originally posted by FurryHippie
    Also, the way I saw it was that Perfect was in the ring nearly the ENTIRE match and got involved more times than I could count. It truly seemed 2 on 1 against Savage, and he has nothing to balance the side. It was ironic that, after all Flair and Perfect's chicanery, Savage won the match with....an illegal move. I think it worked in that context. He cheated MUCH less than they did, it barely evens out. Not clean, but he still looks good.
Truly. Plus, the story of the match was that Flair and Perfect had pretty much crippled Savage. His leg would hurt for like 6 more months after that. So there wasn't much he could do besides a roll-up and a handfull of trunks to fight fire with fire.

This seems dangerously close to being a list thread of some type, but until CRZ objects I have more pointless additions: I would not count Flair's Royal Rumble win as unclean just because he got help with the final guy who went out. He did go an hour and all. I don't think Piper messed with the ropes at WM X, and if so they never played that up at all. At WM13 Bret snapped Sid's neck on the top rope and Sid staggered right into the tombstone, so that's totally unclean.

Austin interfered in Rock/HHH at Backlash, but Rock was getting beat up by like 8 people and it ultimately ended with all the riff-raff cleared out and Rock and Triple H both down. Hunter grabbed a chair and ran at Rock, got caught in a spinebuster, People's Elbow, pin. So the whole thing was a mess, but there was no outside act that led directly to the finish. I'd count that clean. Similarly, Goldberg's spear on Brock when Eddie won the title was like a good 4 or 5 minutes before the match actually ended. So it didn't lead directly to the finish, but there was no interference against Eddie to offset Goldberg's involvement like there is in Rock/HHH, so it's a tough call.

JBL's title win is a rare case of a technically clean win being portrayed as unclean, since it they set it up like Kurt Angle was screwing Eddie out of the title.
Jaguar
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Since: 23.1.02
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.00
While the thread talks about a list, we're not all making our own lists in response, just discussing the original list. I believe that's okay. And it really is an interesting look at the way the titles have been booked. I would've thought there'd be more unclean wins than there were.

-Jag



Curiosity killed the cat.
flairforthegold13
Kishke








Since: 1.5.03
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.87
God, I thought I remembered the details of all these changes (I do have the lineage memorized in order---used to help me kill time in College Algebra.)
When I sat down and typed that I thought that it would come out that most title changes were clean.
Actually, it's not the case. I'm really shocked at how many title changes had some sort of malfeasance. Shows the whole thought of protecting the former champ, giving him an out. I'm starting to think it really doesn't matter. Rock's first 3 wins or so were all tainted and he became one of the top stars in history. Savage was arguably the 3 biggest star of the 80s (behind Hogan and Flair) and his first reign was totally due to Hogan.
So, my conclusion is that it doesn't matter if the title changes clean (barring like a complete scrum breaking out.)Lesnar won the title and a lot of his defenses clean, yet his reigns were kinda flops.

The interesting thing with Savage is that he really wrestled the same as a face or heel. He never strictly played by the rules. In fact, I'm not sure he ever won a World title clean (I remember most if not all of his WCW wins were never exactly clean.) A bit off topic, I think Savage winning at WM 8 was the wrong decision. What a pointless reign that was for Randy (and I love Savage, and perhaps a lot of its pointlessness was Liz leaving.)

I guess I view a clean win is if the interference didn't directly lead to the finish.
Flair's win was unclean. Watching it, there was no reason to think he would have been able to toss Sid. Sid was a beast. Hogan directly interfered and helped Flair. It's no different than Flair going I dunno 40 minutes with Ricky Morton and then using the ropes.

With Backlash and the H v. Rock switch, I guess so. In hindsight, it's amazing how much of a clusterfuck main event matches were during the Attitude Era. If Austin wasn't wrestling, he interfered, and it seemed McMahon and his minions were always interfering. They have at the least cut that out for the most part.

The Piper WM 10 thing is kinda a joke. If you watch the match, you notice that he did have his hand on the rope while Yoko was going up. I think Eddie Ellner wrote a column in Inside Wrestling claiming Piper chicanery. I grew up rooting for heels so I always looked for an out for 'em.

And the Goldberg spear is supposed to be the most devastating move in wrestling. I certainly see it as disabling Lesnar resulting in Eddy's win. And Lesnar did challenge Goldber right over that, presumably blaming him for Lesnar losing.
sentonBOMB
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Since: 25.11.02
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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.64
    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    I dunno, it really doesn't bother me. I expect heels to cheat to win titles.
    I mean, the whole point is wronged face chases heel.


This is how I feel as well, and I actually have always thought this to be "how it works" in wrestling. It actually really bothers me when a heel has a decisive clean win over a face in any context, ESPECIALLY a champion. The whole mythos of wrestling is based on the idea that good triumphs over evil; when evil wins cleanly, there is no more hope. You need to have the heel cheating, so that you know deep down that if the face just got a fair chance, he'd win.

I'm sure I'm over-dramatizing this, but wrestling to me has always been very symbolic and simple-minded; the guys who win fairly are the good guys, and the guys who win unfairly are the bad guys. When a face cheats to win, it feels wrong; and when a heel wins fairly, it bothers me. The reason we (speaking for the "marks") wanted John Cena to beat JBL is because JBL didn't deserve the title. He may have beaten some random jobbers here and there fairly, but all of his title wins/defenses were because of foul play. And that's what we want from heels.
hayden
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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by King Of Crap
    HHH over Goldberg (not clean)


HHH stole Kane's pin in a Triple Threat. You could count that as clean.


Although Batista prevented Kane from pinning Goldberg, so you might argue that it was unclean. Then again, Goldberg was pinned by a legal move from a legal competitor in the match, so I don't really know.
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Dave Meltzer was asked about this a couple of weeks ago on his show. He said they probably will do a Smackdown version of Heat or turn it into Velocity for one week.
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