Jakegnosis mentioned this in another thread and I started wondering the same thing as I watched Raw:
Booker/ Christian never clicked. Actually, I don't think Christian ever clicked as IC Champ. I've found him to be lethally boring- he seems like a cut-rate Jericho. people around here seem to love him, but I think he needs to drop the strap, post haste.
Christian was a frickin' flop. He didn't click with either of his main contenders. He's better off in a tag team. They should put him back with Lance Storm and have them feud against Goldust and... somebody.
I totally disagree. He has a good moveset (unlike Gunn), has a good workrate (unlike Gunn), if you look around he usually has a pretty decent amount of signs for a midcarder who they make look really weak, and he is rather funny on the mic (unlike Gunn).
Him and RVD worked well together last nite. They pulled off a great ladder match.
I do agree that he needs a person to feed off of (I see him as someone like Matt Hardy who has Shannon Moore, he needs a lackey or two, the TE3 kids could work)
I was happy to see him drop the strap though as RVD proved once again that even with all the shit the WWE does to him, he is still over.
The problem w/ Christian as IC Champ, is they never made him look strong. The night after winning the belt, he jobbed clean to Goldust w/ a powerslam. After that, practically every match ended in a DQ. He should have been picking up wins over some of the Raw jobbers/mid-carders to build up his reign.
Booker getting hurt also hurt Christian, as they had to rush the belt back onto him. After that, he kept getting verbally bitch-slapped by Austin, or else not even wrestling. In his 2 reigns as IC Champ, they never gave him any credibility save for these last couple weeks.
Christian can cut an excellent promo, and his matches are above-average. They need more second-tier heels on Raw, and he's a fine example of that. I think the problem was putting him in the I-C champion's position when really most people wanted to see Booker or RVD (or even Jericho) in that role. That's hurt him a lot.
But I don't see the similarities between Billy Gunn, who is constantly pushed into a semi-top spot despite earning it, and Christian, who rarely makes that spot, even if he HAS.
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Originally posted by wordlifeI totally disagree. He has a good moveset (unlike Gunn)
Whaaat? If there's one good thing about Billy Gunn, it's his moveset. C'mon the One and Only, the spinning uranage thingy, the Fameasser. While Christian's moveset is punch, kick, reverse DDT, choke.
Christian just can't cut it as a singles wrestler. He's entertaining on the mic, but not a great promo, he does way too much silly stuff. He really struggles in the ring as he relies way too much on choking and chinlocks as part of his offense which bores the hell out of me. I really can't recall Christian improving at all as a wrestler over the past few years.
The Billy Gunn comparison is SO right because the last time I can remember Christian consistently entertaining me was when he was teaming with Jericho. Really, he was at his best with Edge and hasn't done anything really substantial since then. Has Christian ever had a good match that wasn't assisted by a gimmick of some sort? I do think the booking fucked him and the title over and they REALLY should have let him run with the "New People's Champ" gimmick, which could have been gold.
This should settle it....name for me a good match Billy Gunn has had...
Christian hasn't clicked as IC champ because, as someone has already said, they never got behind him. The HTM-esque character only really works when the heel champ is sneaking out wins. It doesn't work when every match ends in an intentional DQ, that just bores people.
Billy Gunn, on the other hand, has received sustained push after sustained push. In 1999 he wins King of the Ring and gets a SummerSlam program with The Rock. That doesn't take so they reunite the NAO and put him back side-by-side with HHH while HHH was at his peak. Billy gets hurt so they manage to sidestep the whole fact that the fans were ridiculously sick of DX by early 2000, but when he comes back he gets to kill six months worth of heat on Eddie Guerrero and win the IC title. What does he do with that? He drops Chris Benoit on his head with a press slam at Armageddon and messes up his neck. Finally he gets hurt AGAIN and comes back to be given a Playboy model for a valet...and let's not forget that at one point he was going to get the US title again. What's the common factor in all of this?
Billy gets chance after chance and blows it. Christian, on the other hand, never gets to build on anything he gets going. A bit of rub from The Rock is forgotten until Rocky comes back for a cameo two months later. The IC title win results in jobs to Goldust and a bunch of blatant DQs. Another IC title win gets him left off SummerSlam and without a real program for months at a time. It's hard to say a guy can't cut it when the fans have never been given much of a reason to care about whether the guy wins or loses, or even wrestles on a show for that matter. But when they've tried six ways from Sunday to get another guy over and no one buys it, that's an entirely different ballgame.
My Billy Gunn comparison is only because Christian has not "caught fire" as a singles wrestler and is better off in a tag team. He'll end up like Bagwell - a bunch of tag titles with a bunch of different partners.
Maybe the better comparison would be Christian to Jim Neidhart? Kinda gets a crowd reaction based on whoever he last tagged with. On his own, things just don't work, and his partners end up being bigger successes then him?
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I gotta stand up for my boy Christian here. He is one of my favorite wrestlers, so bare with me I am a little bit biased.
First a little bit about Billy Gunn. Billy has been pushed numerous times as a tag team and a singles competitor. IF you rank past King of the Ring winners...he's above only Mabel. The only time in his career he was remotely interesting was with DX in 1998. Even then, you could tell he was just along for the ride and let the other three deal out the charisma while he just kind of hungout. Think of the classic DX moments....how many of them involve Billy Gunn doing something other than just being there? Billy has been given unearned win after win after win after win.
Now, Christian. I can see where people would say Christian needs to be in a tag team. That's where he's had the most success. However, I would say Christian was the more charismatic of the two when he was with Edge and held his own when he was with Jericho.
However, I don't think you can rightfully dog his singles career when it consists mostly of winning titles and then losing every non-title match or every title match by DQ. The WWE has never had full confidence in Christian. And they should. Like I have mentioned before I work in a Bowling Center as a second job and a lot of people like wrestling there. And aside from me, they all HATE Christian with a passion. You should have seen them go off when he was getting the one up on Goldberg for a couple of shows this past summer.
Billy Gunn has taken all he has been given and done nothing with it. Christian has been given next to nothing and done something with it.
Does he need a lackey? Sure, he does play off of other people better -- that's true. So why don't they just give him one? They did Billy Gunn.
How many great matches, gimmick or no, have you seen Christian in? Now how many have you seen Gunn in?
IF they had given Christian the opportunity that they gave even Edge, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.
Too bad they didn't bring back Kevin Nash as Christian's bodyguard/stooge while he was IC champion. Still, though, I could see Christian running with the "New People's Champion" gimmick, and using Nash as his own personal Ralphus...
Originally posted by Tribal ProphetMaybe the better comparison would be Christian to Jim Neidhart? Kinda gets a crowd reaction based on whoever he last tagged with. On his own, things just don't work, and his partners end up being bigger successes then him?
Jim Neidhart? That's just cruel. What's next, slapping the Marty Jannetty tag on him?
I think Christian is a pretty good wrestler as well as able on the mic, but he was never a convincing champ. A lot of blame may rest with the writing team, but some of it definitely belongs on Christian's shoulders.
His matches withh Booker T were boring. I love Booker, and I've seen him pull out some great matches, but him and Christian were just sort of there. It could be that their styles just didn't work well together, but I've seen Booker in a lot of great singles matches, and I can't say the same about Christisn. Monday's ladder match was the best match I've seen on free TV in a while, but the gimmick, and RVD being in top form, made the match. Christian is definitely at home in a ladder match, but all the best bits were RVD's. I can't think of one non-gimmick singles match where Christian really shone. I'm sure there were some, but the fact that I can't remember them says something on it's own.
Of the E&C team, I think Edge is superior to Christian, especially in the ring. I could see Edge as a legitimate WWE Title contender; not so with Christian. He has a better look and more enrgy in the ring. It's not really Christian's fault, but I don't see him as more than a midcard heel. When he would show up with his IC belt, I would think tpo myself that he didn't come across as a credible champ at all. Again, it may be the WWE's fault, but a lot of people have run with bad gimmicks and shaky support from the writers. The bottom line is that Christian didn't. He's great in certain situations, specifically in a tag team, or, as we saw on Monday, with a ladder in the mix.
However, I just don't think he's got the goods to be a legitimate singles contender without a buddy (Jericho) or a lackey. It always seemed odd that Christian was the one with the belt, when Jericho overshadowed him every time they were together. it just looked strange.
In conclusion, I'm not bashing Christian. I genuinely like him. I think he's an entertaining, very good wrestler. Just not great.
Originally posted by minextooWe've had a thread on this before. The reason people think Edge is superior to Christian and is a legitmate WWE title contender because the WWE has groomed him for it and pushed him down our throats.
Give Christian a microphone and some quality wins and you would think the same way about him. Only they won't let him beat anyone.
I disagree. Watch the Smackdown Six Era Edge and watch Edge hang with 5 of the best workers in the world and still manage to hold his own. Edge was competing at such a high level pre-injury that I wouldn't be surprised if there was main-event plans for him upon returning. Has the WWE pushed him hard? Yes, but he's also done enough to DESERVE the push he's getting. Edge hasn't been pushed down our throats because that would imply that the fans have rejected Edge. Edge was plenty over pre-injury.
On to Christian. Christian has NEVER shown me that he could even come close to performing at the level that Edge was performing at. I fail to see how Christian can be superior to Edge when Edge was a main-event over worker putting on great matches while Christian is the guy who does funny promos and had a fun ladder match on Monday. I don't think Christian could do as much with the same push because Christian could never be as effective of a babyface as Edge is.
I'll admit that Christian has been underpushed and been given plenty of shit to work with, but he's been given several titles and several pushes and he hasn't made much out of any of them. He blew his big match and the whole feud with Edge. The point I was trying to make about Christian never having a good non-gimmick match was that Christian isn't a good worker and it detracts from him being the total package he needs to be to even have a shot at the main event. He has decent mic skills, but he's less efeective without someone to play off of, which is exactly why he needs a tag partner and is exactly why he's Billy Gunn.
Thank you, Underwater. Edge busted his ass to deserve his spot. He adapted and worked with what they gave him. Remember "Billy Bitchcakes"? Remember those first, acid-tounged promos from him that were so fucking funny but kind of made you wonder if they would piss people off? Edge's promos got neutered after that but he adapted and found a different way to get his character over.
Look at Eddie Guerrero. He doesn't win his matches cleanly. Cheating to win isn't that much different from intentional DQs to keep the belt. Eddie makes it entertaining and raises the bar. Christian had the opportunity to tweak his character and do the same thing. He couldn't though.
Edge was NOT shoved down our throats. Brock Lesnar or Randy Orton would be the example of that and Edge's situation is in no way similar. As mentioned, Edge busted his ass and always was dedicated and convicted in everything he did. Even given something ridiculous like the shampoo feud with Booker T., he made gave his all and made something good out of it. He has a natural charisma and is always diversifying his moveset. The guy paid his dues and is still paying. Needless to say, EDGE IS THE MAN.
Pretty good Raw in my opinion. Obviously because they changed things up ever so slightly. Having Heyman & Brock walk out first put some momentum in the show and Ambrose is always fun to hear. Steph trying to mess with their heads was decent too.